..Are there circumstances (excepting your breed being in seriously rare/nearing extinction numbers!!) where you think it makes sense for a top quality (assessed as such by most of the specialists in your breed) successful male to be used on a bitch who is not really show quality. i.e. an dog who would be graded as good/very good in FCI and would have visible flaws detracting from what the standard asks for.

She is however from a very nice pedigree and her littermates are of better quality. I am taking solely show quality here - the bitch could be the healthiest, happiest girl with the nicest temperament and let's say she is. The bitch's sire and dam are top notch also as are most of the dogs in the pedigree.

Someone in my breed has described it thusly: ''A top class dog is still not a magician and can not fix serious faults.''

I would be worried that the litter would not sell as you are surely increasing the chances of the litter NOT being show quality in as much as you can ever try to ensure that. i realise even using the best of both parents nothing is guaranteed, but the point is surely to increase your chances on all sides, not minimise them on one side.

Also, depending on the thought process and the forward thinking of other people in the breed, the stud could become known for being a poor producer although if put to a bitch of his equal could produce very nicely (he may not get the chance depending)

Thoughts?

I would agree with your suppositions.  Going back several years we had a top class dog who we allowed to be used widely in the breed, as we felt it could be of value to the breed.  He got a reputation as not being a great producer when really it was a case of he could not work miracles! If I am ever lucky enough to have another such dog again his bitches will be carefully selected.

There are many cases of top quality dogs not producing as well as their middle of the road siblings. If there wasn't a glaring fault then I would still consider it. If the fault is so glaring that you couldn't live with it, or detrimental to the health, then no, I wouldn't consider it.

Very true Lindy Lou! I can't but think that a dog should at least be able to gain good show placements in order to breed (as part of many other things but i mean one graded so poorly...) Such a pity as the pedigree and the breeders are really great.

If it is that the animal is rather plain or has a cosmetic fault that isn't highly heritable, then with a good pedigree she may produce better than herself.  It is the long way to produce quality or her breeder and may mean taking several generations to get real quality again, and the breeder may be far better off starting with a better quality bitch to found their line.

This should be quite possible in breeds that have decent size litters, but sometimes not so in breeds with ones or two's where the quality bitches are invariably kept by the breeder.

If she is the last of her line, because there were no better bitches in the litter then that is also a factor.

If she was bought as an obvious pet due to lack of quality, then that is another matter but if she looked promising as a pup but didn't fulfil early promise and the faults are not major conformation faults or temperament or health there may be reason to use her and she may produce well.

It seems to be more that hopes are being hinged on this girl because of her ideal temperament. The breeder has other bitches who are of great quality but not great temperament.

Well, just speaking from a personal viewpoint, I have a bitch (wellknown by everyone in the breed who shows, and known by many CDers as well) who is known for her outstanding temperament, in fact THE best temperament I personally have ever seen in the breed. In a breed where temperament can be a problem. Being half working lines she has some very obvious faults, such as her very large ears that I tend to refer to as satellite dishes or donkey ears. :) She's had plenty of championship show placings, always in the first 3, but always either because of lack of competition or at times she did better than others BECAUSE her temperament was better. She has been under two continental judges, one graded her just Good, one Very Good. (The reason for why we keep showing her is that my 13 year old son is handling her, and he is just learning to handle, and she is the perfect dog for him to learn with. He takes her in both breed classes and JH.) I am most definitely breeding from her in the future (years ahead, she is only 13 months old yet) and already have interest in her pups -including from abroad. But I know the show lines on her mother's side inside out, and she is going to a dog (with 2 CCs) that has produced some outstanding pups with very small ears. I know it's unlikely we will get a litter of 100 % top show quality pups, but I feel confident there will be several good ones. But I know the lines, and I also know that this working/show mating ended up with some pups that were more show style in looks and some that look more working (including my bitch), so I like to think I know what I am doing. It would be a different story if it was a similar looking bitch owned by somebody who didn't know what was in the lines, didn't use a dog that had already produced pups etc. My point here is, nothing is ever black or white, each situation is different.

I think difficulties arise when the owner thinks their dog is of superior quality and no one else in the breed seems to though :(

They don't have to be perfect but there a few things I won't even consider breeding with.
Bad,aggressive or shy temperament.
Poor health results,
Light eyes...these are the devils own trouble to get rid of once embedded in your breed lines.

there is a big difference between perfect and acceptable though? i wouldn't consider acceptable to be the same as 'very good' or excellent quality.

My oldest girl was bought as pet but then I got into showing, she has a few/faults though nothing major and by me using a dog that had a good track record and sired quite a few champions I now have my boy who is now on the top 10 cc winners since they were bought over here 30years ago:-)  sometimes luck is a bog factor :-)  all 4 in the litter were exceptional and still are too :-)

In my (novice) opinion, it would depend on how important it was for the breed that this bitch's genes were passed on. If the gene pool was very small or she was the sole carrier of some important lines, then possibly.

My older girl was assessed by various championship judges as being very close to the breed standard in many aspects, but having a particular fault, which could well be offset by the correct choice of dog. I had her spayed though as I have a popular breed and there are many superior bitches out there (& I don't have enough experience to breed). She may be a faulted show dog, but she's a darn fine pet!

I have been told that studies in racehorses have shown that high performing mares, produce statistically more successful offspring than their full siblings.

That's the thing Hants...... As many, if not most pups go as pets, it is tempting to mate 'pets'. Chosen for other reasons than their look.
The obvious outcome is a bit like the Galapagos finches, without checks and balances the breed becomes homogenised and loses the TYPE which epitomises the breed. Same area (for that  read convenience) matings go on .....and you get a local type like Portsmouth 'Staffies'.

Without a standard and the coming together to compare type, we NEVER would have had any distinct breeds.

A bitch that has Good/Very Good gratings in the FCI system is pet quality (in all my years showing, and even though my dogs are nice examples of the breed, but they all have things that could be improved, I never had a dog being graded with a Good) and probably has some serious faults/lack of type.

Great pedigree or not, she should not be used for breeding. When people start breeding pedigrees instead of dogs, it's the fastest way to ruin a breed.

Sorry Chillington, had to laugh at that. One of my bitches has been graded Very Good by continental judges, yet she's won several BOBs at both open and championship shows (plus BB, RBB, RBOB and a group placing), she just isn't good enough for a ticket. She's the one I mentioned earlier whose puppies from two litters between them (4 pups shown), so far, have won 3 CCs and 11 RCCs. If that's not good enough to breed from I don't know what is. But of course I KNOW what is behind her -including both her Champion parents and her littermates on tickets. Breeding is so much more than just looking at the qualities of ONE bitch!

Very Good is not the same as good. Very goods can be an Excellent dog having an off day, can be a judge that has a particular dislike about something in the dog (even if it's not penalised by the standard), a dog that hasn't settled well on movement... A Good means "keep the dog at home and don't bring it back". Getting a Good by more than one judge, and if they are breed specialists, isn't "good" at all.

Yes but you DID say "Good/Very Good"! And this bitch has consistently been graded VG by all the continental breed specialists over the years that we have had at our breed shows here (the BSD breed championship shows always grade the dogs and very frequently have continental judges), bar one, who graded her Excellent years ago. She doesn't have off days and she moves fantastically well.  :) Her two faults are obvious ones that it would be hard not to spot, but not one of her pups inherited either fault.

I said Good/Very Good, because that was in the initial post. I read it like Good with breed specialists, Very Good with non-specialists. If this bitch can't get an Excellent under anyone (I assume she's being shown in the Republic of Ireland), she must have some serious fault.

Most judges are very forgiving, and only the Scandinavian use the full range of grading (from Sufficient to Excellent). They want to be invited to judge, and to command a good number of entries. The only judges I have seen using the full range of gradings are so well respected, that it doesn't affect the number of entries that get. People will still enter under them just to get their opinion.

> Her two faults are obvious ones that it would be hard not to spot, but not one of her pups inherited either fault.

That sounds like her faults are caused by  recessive genes so wouldn't show in her direct offspring. However all the pups are likely to carry the genes for the faults and if put to a dog that also carries the genes then the faults will appear again seemingly out of nowhere. This is the danger of breeding from an animal with an obvious fault.

This is the danger of breeding from an animal with an obvious fault.

Exactly, but not only is this where it matters to KNOW the dogs in the background, not just as names, but knowing what they have thrown, but it is also a risk you take when the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, as we are only talking about LOOKS and minor points although obvious. (What I mean is, you cannot breed on looks alone, health and temperament are just as important and you have to have all 3 to get a good dog. A stunning looking dog with terrible temperament is of no use to anyone.) The second litter this bitch had was a total outcross, but the first was same lines on the stud's mother's side and the COI for the first litter was 11 % (the second 0 %). It still did not come through.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">That sounds like her faults are caused by  recessive genes so wouldn't show in her direct offspring. However all the pups are likely to carry the genes for the faults

Only half are likely to carry the gene, so when mating the offspring one would avoid putting them to a dog/bitch with the mothers fault, that way reducing the chance of the fault showing up (and if it's a cosmetic fault it's not so bad).

If the mate carried the fault then the chances would only be 25% of the offspring carrying it, if clear then nonr would show it but some would carry it.

Well, that's assuming genes like that are recessive.... they may not be. Variable expression, threshold characters, perhaps the 'fault' is incompletely dominant or even polygenic... there may be a lot more to it.

> Only half are likely to carry the gene

No in a recessive gene a dog has to have two copies of the gene for the fault to show. One inherited from each parent. Therefore it would pass a copy of the faulty gene on to every puppy. Although not showing the fault all the puppies would  produce the fault when bred to another dog with the same gene.

ROFL.....  I have a bitch here who has had a Very Good  grade and she now has champion titles in four counties and her Int Ch title. She was top Winning CC bitch in Uk 2013

Show awards are issued based on that judges view on the day .... Repeated poor grading may suggest some deviations form standard that should not be ignored but let's not forget some judges opinions are not worth much :)

>Show awards are issued based on that judges view on the day .... Repeated poor grading may suggest some deviations form standard that should not be ignored but let's not forget some judges opinions are not worth much

Precisely !

All this talk of grading. We all know that there is a huge amount of politicking in breeds in every country, lots of incompetent judges and then there's the old chestnut..." Personal preference ".

Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I KNOW That one of my bitches would be severely down graded for a cosmetic fault..YET she has bred me some beautiful winners (without her fault) to well chosen studs.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">the puppies would  produce the fault when bred to another dog with the same gene.

That's the point of knowing that the picked sire/dam and their relatives do not have the same faults as your dog/bitch.

I mated a bitch that was the granddaughter of a beautiful dog with a lot of titles but with a fault that wasn't very noticeable, to a son of that same dog. That dog never passed his fault either to the sire of my bitch, or to the dog I used on her, or any of their litter siblings. Neither of those dogs had ever passed their Sire's fault to any of the progeny, until my litter. I got this marvellous puppy bitch, very eye-catching, wonderful temperament, great mover, baby and puppy BIS placings, BPSS... And when she was 9 months, her GSire/GGSires fault showed up, and I knew it wasn't going to improve. Most judges wouldn't have noticed it, I would still be able to win with her (probably a lot); but I have a limited number of dogs I can keep, and it's something I don't want to see creeping up every now and then when I breed a litter and I don't want to keep having to do out crossings for several generations, and loosing my favourite type in the process; so I placed her, and she will be someone's wonderful pet.

And when she was 9 months, her GSire/GGSires fault showed up, and I knew it wasn't going to improve.

Well the faults I am talking about would be obvious long before then -in fact if the pups did not have them I'd most likely know at 4 WEEKS. So again it comes down to knowing how faults work etc, and whether you are prepared to take risks to get ahead.

I would not worry if a dog got a random good or a v.good at some point in it's career - no way. However if they never rise above them despite repeated showing...