Hi all, having read through a lot if posts on here I have a question for you all. What would be your one bit of invaluable advice you would give someone who was planning on having their first ever litter? I will tell you a little about me and my girl. I have had dogs all my life used to have gsds and did obedience with them, after my old boy died I couldn't face having another an since he went I've had two children so knew u wouldn't have the time for the hours of training I did everyday! I really missed being in the doggy world so decided to go into conformation, with that in mind I researched a breed I've always been interested in the Bernese mountain dog, I spen 6 months looking for the right pup and found my fantastic breeder who I now have a great friendship with, my girl has done ok at shows, not amazing but ok she does come from a line of champions but first and foremost she also comes from a line of amazing temperament! I am now at the point of wanting to have a litter from her to keep a pup myself and have researched many dogs and found one stud dog I like have spoken to owner and all is set for when she comes in to season next, so my question is this what one price if advice were you given that you thought was the best bit of advice?
Sian

Start a waiting list by getting your info out there, breed club planned litter list, list your website (vital I feel these days) on all the decent doggy sites etc.

There is nothing that takes the shine off enjoying a litter as worrying about pups than have not got homes to go to yet.

If a good proportion of your litter is booked before birth this helps a great deal, it also allows a lot more time for vetting.

Thanks for that. I have already got people who want a few pups from my breeder and also the stud dog owner has told me she will help find homes as well as helping me vet new owners. I just glad I have so much help with the people I've met since owning my girl. I just like to do as much research as possible before throwing myself into something I've not done before.

Buy 'The Book of the Bitch' and make sure your girl and your stud dog have had any health tests your breed needs. You sound like you're going about it all the right way. :-)

Yes both mine and stud dog have had all tests done and all good, I hope I'm going about Irvin the right way, just nice to get advice off others who have done this before and for years. Thanks for replies
Sian

As a  buyer,I'd want to see the dog was health tested to the utmost...especially as the Bernese do not have a great reputation for longevity...Re bone cancer and heart issues,not to mention hip dysplasia.
If the female is only "doing ok" at the shows....I'd personally not come to you  for a pup and would be going the the breeders who have ch dogs and are probably behind your female,s pedigree.
i know everyone  has to start somewhere but in the genetic minefield of being a puppy breeder I would want to begin my line with only the very best ...ch titled and all health testing done on both the parents.You owe this to the buyers who put their faith in you.

To be honest my girl comes from champ lines her sister has been made up this year! And it is probe rely more to do with my handling and the fact I do not go to every champ show available, she has done well in bmd champ shows. She is just over two years now so is still young and my breeder and a few others who are champ judges have told me she was raw in her younger time and needing time to mature which she had done, and I believe she will now do well in the ring and so will I with her as I've been training myself! She and the stud dog have had all the tests they need and she has had a health test as I wouldn't do anything if I thought it would be detrimental to her or the breed! I have the highest regard for people in the breed that know and understand the breed and want only the best for them. As for not coming to me for a pup because my girl is not a champion and in your eyes possibly not good enough as I said i don't go to all shows and the ones I have been to she has done well perhaps I should of explained better but I do think that all dogs do not need to be champs to be a good foundation if they have the right genetics and the health behind them, to penalise a dog just because her owner either doesn't frequent the shows or is of little experience in showing dogs does nothing for the breed? Surely it is better to have a puppy from a bitch who is in tip top condition, good genes and a fantastic line than a dog that has been to every show possible to get a champ title? Sorry if my views may seem wrong but I believe in my judgement and I'd that seems wrong then sorry!

Well I am not hung up on red on the pedigree, I would use and have used untitled dogs in a breeding programme if their  type, construction, health and temperament merritted it. My top winning home bred girl is a champion in uk and titled in three other European countries in addition to having finished her Int ch title ... Her dam is untitled :)
My next expected litter is by a non titled dog out in Germany, took me a long time to find the dog I felt complemented my lines and did look at some titled animals before settling on him. I hope he will achieve his Field Trail Ch title next year but he may not, either way a red name would add nothing more genetically. JMHO

Think the first thing is 'why are you breeding this litter'? The answer to this may effect the advice you get.

To be honest, being 'titled' doesn't change a dog's genes - all it does is prove that the owner was interested enough and wealthy enough (in both time and money) to campaign it. If it hadnever seen inside a show ring it wouldn't produce worse puppies. So no, titled parents aren't necessary to get a good sound healthy pup.

I am wanting a litter to keep a puppy myself so I can hopefully in a few years down the line be able to look at my dogs and see yes they are of type and yes they are doing well and that they have great temperaments and live long and happy lives! But I do feel this is getting off topic all I really asked was what if any was the one piece of advice you were given to you that you feel was the best!?

Sorry your think my question irrelevant, I feel the reason for breeding does effect the answer but as you don't I'll but out.

Hi nova sorry didn't mean it to come across as yr question not being relevant! Yes I get why you ask that but I wasn't meaning this thread to be about me per say but a general advice thing for anyone who is a first time breeder and any advice more experienced breeders felt was of a great help to them when they first started!

My advice would be..prepare for the possibility of a very large litter. Its not unheard of for Bernese to have whoppers.
All those who 'say' they want one now can likely back out for one reason or another, be prepared.
Berner babies get very big, very quickly..... is your home, set up ready for a number of unsold ones?

Breeding dogs is not for cissies, its hard work, worrying, expensive and bears a very heavy responsibility. The magnitude of which you may come to realise further down the line.

JG.  ReTo be honest, being 'titled' doesn't change a dog's genes - all it does is prove that the owner was interested enough and wealthy enough (in both time and money) to campaign it. If it hadnever seen inside a show ring it wouldn't produce worse puppies. So no, titled parents aren't necessary to get a good sound healthy pup.

Are you saying that titles are worthless?
...if the poster is just starting  a line surely the titles are proof that the foundation dog is typical of the breed and the health testing backs up its credentials health wise.
I agree many proven kennels do use untitled females,but they have the experience of showing  amd gaining titles prior,and knowing the ins and outs of their lines to do so. By saying it doesn't matter seems to condone anyone who wishes to breed a "nice friendly" dog,with no titles. I value your posts, so this reply does surprise me and seems to go against what you and this board normally advocate.

>Are you saying that titles are worthless?

No, that's not what I said. :-)

A dog that has been campaigned to its title will, if mated to the same partner, produce the same puppies than if it hadn't been campaigned to its title. Think about it: if the breed CC record holder in your breed had been kept in a pet home, would it be a lesser dog?

Titles need to be kept in perspective, and not be the main criterion for choosing a dog, just as hipscores etc are another tool, and not the sole factor in whether a dog's genes are suitable to pass on.

Toolz yes I'm aware Berners can have BIG litter my home is set up for that. And I have room to keep pups if some aren't gone I work from home as well so always around.
I don't think anyone is saying titles are worthless just that if the genetics are there in bitches line that the bitch herself does not have to be a champion. Ie my bitches father and sister are champs so is another sister from a previous litter, and the stud dog and his brother and father and mother are all champs, it's just that I myself have not had much experience in the show ring and I've not been to that many shows with her, had I campaigned her this year now that she is more mature I may well have earned a ticket or two with her! But just cause she isn't a champ doesn't mean she would not be a good foundation bitch for me. I do have the experience  of my breeder behind me as well she has helped me choose the stud,

All sounds you've put plenty of thought in already. My own first breeding bitch isn't a champion, but she has qualified for Crufts - she has done plenty well enough in the show ring to prove her quality without being of that extra top quality to get those green cards. Her son is an AKC Champion. Can't say foundation bitch as her daughter failed her eye test so that's the end of that line! :-p

Me again,because I truly believe in what I posted last...if I follow your logic then all pups from a quality female are breed worthy....no they are not..and that is why there are pet quality and show qualitypups .Surely the showring is the yardstick by which they are measured,otherwise why bother?

JG you say.."A dog that has been campaigned to its title will, if mated to the same partner, produce the same puppies than if it hadn't been campaigned to its title. Think about it: if the breed CC record holder in your breed had been kept in a pet home, would it be a lesser dog?"......
But this female isn't campaigned to its title,nor is it a cc record holder.....so your argument doesn't hold up.

My new boy comes from two world winners, both ww twice over..both sire and dam also have multichampionships in many countries,in fact every dog in the pedigree is ch titled......yet my boy won't be bred.Firstly he will not be shown and second,he is probably going to be "pet quality" as he is going to be a big dog,probably oversize.I knew this when I bought him and went such a long way to get this pup(Sweden) because of the intensive health testing she does and the quality of the dogs they produce.I repect my breed enough to know that a beautiful dog ,with a good temperament is not enough to be the foundation of a new kennel.
I have a degree in zoology,so do understand a little about genetics and would  also like to see what health testing this young female has achieved to date.
My point is that the poster is starting her kennel with this dog who does not have any title..what basis can the kennel be judged on if it is using a dog who gets " only ok "results in the ring as its foundation female?

>But this female isn't campaigned to its title,nor is it a cc record holder.....so your argument doesn't hold up.

Bellamia, you're totally missing the point. :-) A titled dog is a (presumably) good dog which has been campaigned. That same dog, if it never went to a single show, is just as valuable to its breed genetically.

No I'm not...this dog hasn't got that proof ie a title ,under its belt,so we may never know if this poster ,s dog could have got the title that your "hypothetical " quality  dog would have got ....the reality is it hasn't...I rest my case.
If I were the poster I'd get my dog titled and then she can have a firm foundation to start her kennel,providing the health testing hold up too.

A good dog can be handled badly (I know, I do it all the time!) which can spoil its chances in the ring.

No, a title isn't the be-all and end-all, but merely one of the factors in deciding whether or not a dog is suitable to breed from ... and I've known some champions which certainly weren't! And I'm sure we all know of dogs and bitches that would never be champions themselves but their offspring are. You need a very honest mentor when you're starting out; one who can see beyond the names in the pedigree.

Also a tiled dog is the exception in the UK, the vast majority shown or worked do not attain their title but yet have merit.

You would have a very narrow gene pool if only titled dogs were bred from, and fo course in many cases the bitches would be too old for a first litter if you waited for her to gain a title.

I'm not saying that untitled dogs should not be bred from....I am saying they do not make a good foundation for the start up of a new kennel,with a first time breeder as is the case here.
I know that untitled dogs are used in good kennels....my recently deceased dog ,who died at 13, was a credit to her breed and a healthy dog.,and her mother was not a ch..but her breeder is a judge at crufts,and  has had this breed for over forty years.I would trust her judgement as a seasoned breeder to be able to say if the female represented her breed and the health testing backed her up.
So Im not naively saying that all dogs have to be ch.title.I don't want to keep repeating myself....but this scenario is no different to a BYB if a newbie to the breed,takes a dog and decides to breed it.The show ring has been tried and not given much merit to this particular dog...so why is this dog a good foundation for a new kennel?This is what I don't follow.The fact there are ch in the pedigree is like riding on a coat tails of former good dogs....surely the dog itself has to prove itself in the ring to be filling very important shoes here.Foundation bitch? I've seen the lengths some of you have all gone to to get a cracking female as the foundation of your various kennels...so why does this poster get the green light ,when others are told they are byb?

It would seem I have started something here! Just would like to say my bitch is health tested and has qualified for crufts twice but as I have said I do not campaigned her. This was achieved through going to only two champ so where she won in both her classes! I have never said she is no good at show just I'm inexperienced with showing her! She is most definatly of breed type as set down by the kennel club, I've had my breeder who by the way is a breed specialist and a champ show judge a again breed specialist tell me she is of breed standard and her test results are right for the breed. Unfortunately people like yourself are one of the reasons I don't frequent conformation shows which is a shame as you seem to rely on dogs gaining titles above all else! Even though I haven't been to many shows I know there are champions out there who have bad hip and elbows and not the best of temperaments which by your argument would be far superior to breed from than my bitch! I find that very hard to swallow as those are the dogs we should not be breeding from for the good of the breeds! Sorry rant over now! Just can't believe how narrow minded some people are

>but this scenario is no different to a BYB if a newbie to the breed,takes a dog and decides to breed it.

Yes it is! The bitch is Crufts qualified (in a breed where classes are quite large so it's not a case of 'turn up and qualify!) and seems to be from good lines (if ring success is anything to go by) so is certainly worth considering in a breeding programme.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">....but this scenario is no different to a BYB if a newbie to the breed,takes a dog and decides to breed it.The show ring has been tried and not given much merit to this particular dog...so why is this dog a good foundation for a new kennel?

From what the OP says she has the support of the bitches experienced breeder, and the bitch comes from a litter where one is already titled, has shown and won at championship show level, so hardly someone starting with a pet quality bitch of indifferent breeding on their own.

My foundation bitch had some first prizes as well as usually placed at championship shows, and her litter brother became a champion.

My breeder and the owner of the stud dogs were ladies with a long history in our breed, and encouraged me to breed.  It took my third generation before I bred my best bitch and she became my first champion as did her daughter and one of her granddaughters. 

On the other hand I have had less good results in some combinations, as well as producing some good stock or those that produced well.

There is a lot of luck as well as judgement in breeding.  My least good bitch has the best looking pedigree on paper.

>I am saying they do not make a good foundation for the start up of a new kennel,with a first time breeder as is the case here.

I'm sure we'd all love to buy a champion bitch or a puppy which becomes a champion to start our kennels with, but until the top breeders suddenly start letting their best dogs go to newcomers, instead of (quite understandly!) keeping them themselves, we'll just have to manage with what we can get hold of. The OP's bitch sounds like a perfectly decent prospect to me!

Thank you for your support. I would just like to say I  not the sort of person who would do this without thorough research it took me over 6 months researching the breed before I contacted my breeder she and one other would have been my only choice so would of happily waited for the right dog from them. Also I have researched the stud dog over and over to check he is the right one for my bitch, everything I do with my dog would only ever be done if I thought utcqasvyhe right thing to do if her test results had come back not being what I wanted I would have definatly point blank refused to use her as a breeding bitch( I did this with a gsd I had years ago who won obediance comps left right and centre! But I felt he wasn't the right dog to be used at stud! ) I also think that the breed standard is something that should be your main aim at all times as well as breeding dogs that have a temperament to match the breed, with all this in my mind I believe as does my breeder that my dog would make a good foundation bitch for my future lines, that hopefully will include my bitch and her progeny being champs but most of all of type and well mannered and well behaved!

I think everyone thinking of breeding their bitch should read this.
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/141883.html

Quote Bellamia: "....but this scenario is no different to a BYB if a newbie to the breed,takes a dog and decides to breed it.The show ring has been tried and not given much merit to this particular dog...so why is this dog a good foundation for a new kennel?This is what I don't follow.The fact there are ch in the pedigree is like riding on a coat tails of former good dogs....surely the dog itself has to prove itself in the ring to be filling very important shoes here.Foundation bitch? I've seen the lengths some of you have all gone to to get a cracking female as the foundation of your various kennels...so why does this poster get the green light ,when others are told they are byb?"

There is a world of difference between what this first time breeder is doing and what a BYB does! This bitch is well bred and health tested and has had some show ring success. The breeder has the support of their successful and experienced breeder. Her breeder has helped her to find a suitable stud dog.

My first bitch was not a show girl but I took a long time to look around, to learn about my chosen breed, to listen to people, to see what certain stud dogs/lines were producing. I knew her faults and her virtues and knew what I needed to improve. I found a dog that was strong in those particular areas. He wasn't a champion either but had still had a successful show career - and even more importantly a super temperament, as did my bitch. Health testing was in its infancy then (in 1985) but the dog I used was hip scored. I bred a champion in my first litter - she was a Crufts BOB winner. She bred on and produced a champion, as did her litter sister who I also kept. So it can be done :)

Hi zan yes I did read this

I used to think that the more red on a pedigree the better but then I was seeing some awful examples of the breed being produced from champs, a stud could be mated to 10 different bitches and the results will vary because you don't whether the pup is going to get the bad traits as well as the good in those genes, the pup gets 50% from its sire and 50% from its dam, mother nature being what it is we have no control of the outcome.

Some friends who have bred Labradors for over 50 years, told me that one of first things they were told when they started breeding was to be very careful not get "nerves" into their lines. They were told that breeding out light eyes or similar was far easier then trying to breed out nerves.

A totally red pedigree would mean nothing unless care and a good deal of thought had gone into the selection of the stud and the way it could complement or other wise the bitch to be mated.

Heaven protect our breeds from the type of breeder who looks no further than the titles won. The responsibility of the bred should be with the breeders not the judges who although judge to the standard do not know the true dog only the one presented to them to say nothing of the effect of preference.

I have both ......champion bitches and non champion bitches.
My best producers so far are the non titled girls.
In one case my girl was kept home simply because I was showing another girl (of around the same age) to her title...
I very seldom use champion dogs and yet I get big winners.

It's the combination of the right dogs not necessarily two champions which produce the best.

Too true a litter mate is carrying more or less the same genes.

The show ring has been tried and not given much merit to this particular dog...

She's two years old!!! Loads of time yet.

I once mated two non titled dogs together. The dog was 7, the bitch 6. They BOTH ended up getting their Champion titles, long after the litter. One of their daughters has just won her second ticket. She's 7. Had none of these been bred from before having titles, they'd all have been too old.

>It would seem I have started something here!

Oh Sianb!
Pay no attention to those with too few manners or too much arrogance.
I was really dismayed to read some of the responses to your OP, I for one am sorry you've had this experience as Champdogs is wealth of hands on experience and your OP and subsequent posts should not have attracted some of the replies it did.
  It seems to be a nasty habit that has formed in (thankfully) a minority of the membership and it is certainly not the conduct becoming of the majority! As you see from helpful posts that you have received.... It's a shame the minority have detracted from this!
   I'm flabbergasted that one member has even totally ignored you and used your post to argue her own agenda!? Ad nuaseum.
   Please don't let this colour your experience of Champdogs, you've got some great replies which hopefully restores faith, the vast majority of the Membership here are extremely genuinely helpful (Brainless, JG, Dogsababe and many more on this thread) I've been a member for 8 years and count many personal great friends amongst the membership here, sadly these days I don't look in on the forum as much as I used to as I find it tiresome to wade through so many posts now being hijacked in this way. ~ I'm sure you'll get many more good ideas here so please stick with us!

Nova and Bellamia,
I have reported you both to Admin. You will find the answer why in admin MarkR's plea to members to act accordingly Terms of Service and general forum behaviour
Nova, it's just becoming Ad Nauseam  too frequent from you and Bellamia to ignore an OP and follow your own 'its all about me' argument just ruins threads and I see now why many people are complaining and worse just leaving the Forum, we've lost far too many good long standing  members the past years because of this.

If I've offended anyone with my posts on this topic it was not my intention. I genuinely believed this was an open  discussion and I replied to comments made to me.I have not been rude or offensive to the poster,and do not have an agenda.I am not a breeder nor will I ever be one as I do think it is a big responsibility  to do the job properly. I have only joined this board this year and have tried to contribute to several posts constructively.The negative comments directed at me are unjustified and completely out of proportion to what was said in this discussion.

I honestly don't believe a dog needs to be a ch to be bred from, I've seen some fantastic producers in BMD's who themselves weren't Ch's.
I haven't bred a litter but planning to next year(Not BMD's) but what I do know of my friends who do breed them is that you need money for if anything goes wrong at birth. Do you have a partner or mentor/breeder who can be with you if you need to rush to the vets, lifting a BMD into a vehicle isn't easy as we know. I know it's not all doom and gloom but that woul be my worry, having someone in the car to watch or even drive to the vets.

Good luck and its lovely to hear you have a breeder who is behind you and knows the lines to help assist you in choosing the right stud dog and being able to offer constructive advice?

You probably know this already but there are some lines which carry eyelid issues just be careful on that side.
I know if I get another BMD I'd like the parents tested if possible before hand under the BVA eye test scheme and for it to be documented that there are no eyelid conditions and the dog hasn't been operated on. I know it's not that simple but its something id like on top of hips and elbows.

I know of a lady in the breed, never owned a show dog before and she got her boy to be a ch, not what I'd call a flashy handler but she did the job and did it well with a stunning male :-)

Husky gal thank you, to be honest I don't normally get bothered by comments made to me by people who don't actually know me or my situation! People have their opinions that's up to them what grated nome that I wa referred to a byb ( I'm guessing here that means a back yard breeder?) if that's the case I have taken offence to that because that is as far from the truth as possible, you can never explain your whole situation via a post so details get left out, I stand by my desicion to breed my bitch for the right reason and not cow down to the thoughts if some individuals that only champs should be breed from. Considering I have the experience and knowledge if my breeder who has been in my breed for a long time and has had numerous champions in her line and also the help and backing of the stud dog owner/ breeder who also has been in the breed for years and owns 3 of her own champs! Yes I'd love my girl to be a champ one day nothing would make more proud of her but I am happy in knowledge that she is fit healthy of breed type with a super temperament, I have also been told by a breed specialist champ judge that a litter would "bring her on" and that she thought the times were changing for my girl and me as we have put so much hard work into our training a ring craft so when she goes back to showing next year we have done everything right! Some breeds or dogs need time to fully mature and I think this is the case for my girl. Thank you to those who have been supportive on this thread, although as I said this was never actually meant to be completely about me just wanted to know what the experienced breeders thought the best bit of advice was they were given when they first started out! And let's face it we all have to start somewhere!

Nova and Bellamia,
I have reported you both to Admin.

I have not heard from Admin as yet but I would like to know what your problem with me is - I asked why the OP was breeding because it has a bearing on what the most important advice would be.

I then replied to someone else who was talking about the importance of champions in the pedigree - so what in that have you found so offensive?

No matter how hard you try threads are like conversations they are bound to drift off subject and are very boring if they do not, in fact you do not always realise what the OP was you are 'talking' to the previous post.

Hi sue jaw yes I'm aware of the eye problem no dogs in either the dam or sire line have ha problems at all thankfully, I have my breeder who will come to me when I need her but I also have a friend who lives two doors up who is going to help me as well she used to have newfies! So knows what it could be like, I've had plenty of offers for help when the time comes, my girl has her own bank account which is used for any emergencies and I've put money in there to cover costs inc stud fees extra food for pups and any added extras such as vets bills as I know berner can have huge litters and don't want to have to worry about money if anything should happen. Thanks for the advice though much appreciated

I've said, many times, that if a dog is shown several times during the year and is usually in the cards (in classes big enough where some are left cardless!) it's probably close enough to the standard to breed from. If it's usually placed last (in small classes) or cardless then it probably isn't. Being titled really doesn't matter in this respect because we badly need to keep breed gene pools as wide as possible.

Going back to the original question here, what I would have liked to have been better prepared for when I had my first litter was what you do with the pups once they are 5-6 weeks old. At that age, a large breed produces a LOT LOT LOT of poo and oceans of puddles. They also explore by chewing everything they can. I prefer rearing my litters indoors, not moving them into kennels once a few weeks old (tried both ways, preferred in the house only as it was better for the pups) but it's vital to have an area that can easily be mopped dozens of times a day (not just for pee etc, but when the pups start to spend time outside, if it rains they come in all muddy), and where the pups cannot easily ruin furniture/floors/whatever. I hadn't really thought about that with my first litter and after having lived with 9 pups indoors I swore NEVER AGAIN!

Hi goldmali yes 9 big pups indoors would definatly be a disruption to say the least, thankfully my breeder has prepared me for this and we have organised a room in our house for when we have pups as there could be a large litter! Always good to hear some great experiences from others that have done this before.

And mountains of newspaper too -plus facility/ies for disposal of stinky papers and poo. We had a winter litter last year . The poor puppies never got to go into the outdoor playpen because of the incessant rain. So, living room became a giant puppy play pen complete with Little Tikes play house with a little slide and climbing frame. We had seven GR puppies and they were huge .It was fun but desperately hard work . A couple of puppy buyers had expressed an interest in breeding but they were all convinced against this when they saw the mayhem and smelled the 'eau de poo'.

Good Luck !

Haha now that gave me a chuckle! My house is a giant play house anyway, what with two dogs two cats two kids and my other half who prob makes more mess with his toys than all the others put together lol

>- so what in that have you found so offensive?

I have neither, at any point in my post, stated that you were being 'offensive' nor stated that I have reported you being 'offensive'. There are many more ways to fall foul of TOS all can be just as detrimental to an information exchange (The Raison d'être of this Forum)