Hi one of my pups has been diagnosed as having a grade 2-3 murmur have taken him to 2 separate vets and had same result from both both say that he nice big strong puppy no noise with breathing (in breed that 'can' be noisy) that his colour is good.. but just wonder if anyone ever had experience of this and what the outcome was at this grade, both parents are health tested with no problem and the second vet indicated could be AS the breed is one that is classed as prone to this although this first i have had a problem

Thanks in advance

How old is the pup? I don't worry too much about a murmur in a puppy as they so often are innocent flow murmurs that disappear with age. Had one in my last litter in fact and it went away within weeks.

He is 9 weeks now thanks so much fx that is all it is always so easy to worry xx

I just do not understand vets remarking on a murmur in a pup surely they know it is likely to go any sensible vet will tell the owner to come back when the pup is six months.

I'd like to know how a GP vet can 'grade' a heart murmur using only a stethoscope on a wriggly, possibly excited puppy who is likely to be sniffing madly at all the new smells?

Surely it takes Specialist equipment to decide on the type and grade of murmer in a pup, the same as if it were a baby?

At 9 weeks I would most definitely not worry! Bet you anything that murmur will be gone soon. For my pup the murmur was detected at 8 weeks, was completely gone by 10 weeks.

Surely it takes Specialist equipment to decide on the type and grade of murmer in a pup, the same as if it were a baby?

Type yes, but grade most vets seem to do. I got unlucky last week. Took one dog to the vet for a booster, vet found a murmur -I asked what grade and he said 2 without hesitation. He didn't have it just a few months earlier (been to the vet quite a bit this year) and he's 8 so this will stay or get worse. Then two days later I took some cats to be boostered, different vet at same practice, she listened to one and said he has a grade 2 murmur. (Said grade 2 straight away, wasn't asked.) Again he didn't have it before. Here though the vet said cats can sometimes develop a murmur just by stress so it could be false, but the interesting news was that apparently now there is a new blood test (she said it had only been available a few months) that can tell if a cat OR dog has a heart problem or not. It shows something about how the heart is working she said, so we're bringing the cat back for that test.

Dill:
Anyone with a stethoscope and functional ears can grade a murmur. Lifted from one of my textbooks (my brackets):
I   barely audible
II  soft, but easily ascultated (heard with stethoscope)
III intermediate loudness; most haemodynamically (changes in blood flow) important murmurs are at least grade 3
IV  loud with palpable thrill (can feel the vibration caused by the murmur with fingers on the chest)
V   very loud, audible with stethoscope barely touching the chest; palpable thrill
VI very loud, audible without the stethoscope touching the chest; palpable thrill
If the pup (or adult) is wriggling or sniffing you listen for a good long time, gently holding their head away from anything sniffable (or cupping the bottom jaw for a few seconds at a time to stop an adult panting) and usually you can sort out extraneous noise from murmur noise. A murmur will be heard at every heart beat. Usually our biggest problem is getting the owner to stop stroking the pup.
A murmur is just the noise you hear: it doesn't tell you exactly what's going on in the heart. The OP's second said it could be due to aortic stenosis, not that it was.

Nova:
Of course we record all our physical findings and tell the owner. We don't just think "nah, it'll prob'ly be grand, I won't bother saying anything". That bites you in the bum if it does turn out to be a pathological murmur and the owner says, why didn't you tell me about it when I brought him in the first time. I will tell the owner if I hear a grade 1 murmur. We don't just tell the owner to go away and come back when the pup is 6 months, we give the owner options. With a grade 2-3 murmur in a 9 week old pup of a breed prone to aortic stenosis - a Boxer for example- I'll say look, this might be an innocent murmur which will be gone by 16 weeks; or it might be AS. Would you like to sit tight and I'll listen to the pup again at 2nd vax and at 4 months, or would you like his heart scanned? I guess the OP will probably sit tight if she's not intending on selling the pup (and hasn't just bought it and is deciding whether or not to send it back)

me2684:
Your choice whether to get the murmur investigated or not. It might be an innocent puppy murmur that goes away. It might be AS.  You just can't tell by listening. We hear loads of grade 1 and 2 innocent murmurs. Grade 2-3...hmmm.  In a well grown pup with no clinical signs, I think it's quite unlikely that the pup will start suffering problems in the next 2-3 months so I think it's reasonable to sit tight and have his heart ascultated again at 2nd vax and adolescent health visit. (if you intend on keeping the pup whether or not the murmur is innocent). After 16 weeks I think if it hasn't gone away, it probably isn't gonna. (and in fact most - though not all- of the innocent murmurs I have heard at 8 weeks have gone by 12 weeks). FWIW.

Hi

My setter was diagnosed with murmur age 2.5 years and I asked for a second opinion and went to a specialist. A grade 3 murmur was diagnosed and it was checked a year later and was still there but I have been told that in puppies it can disappear.  My girl has not needed any medication and it has not caused her any problems at all.

Puppies can have flow murmurs that disappear by 12 weeks of age.  So not what your girl has got.

I have a bitch with a grade 4 that was diagnosed a couple of years ago.  She has been on Vetmedin, Fortekor and diuretics ever since.  She is 8 next month and coping well,, even though she is on phenobarb for epilepsy as well.

My dog was auscultated as a grade 3-4 and always noted to have a murmur since aged approx 3 by several vets. He was scanned a couple of months ago and guess what NOTHING there, not even a grade 1 or signs of any other detectable heart condition so it might not be necessary to panic. All I can think is he was getting himself worked up every time which distorted the sound.
I'm not sure how old your dog is (note the flow murmur comments) but perhaPs if he is older a scan may be worth doing for peace of mind.

> the interesting news was that apparently now there is a new blood test (she said it had only been available a few months) that can tell if a cat OR dog has a heart problem or not. It shows something about how the heart is working she said, so we're bringing the cat back for that test.

did you get the result of the test? did it show a problem? I woulsd be interested in finding out more about the test.

My giant crossbreed has a grade 3 murmer and a hole in her heart, we were told she would not live to old bones. Ha! she didn't get that memo.
Flo is now 8 years old and has no medication. She does play but not for long and has gentle walks (shorter distance than she would have if completely healthy). She does get out of breath quicker but hey she is 74 kilos and has semi long hair. She struggles most in the summer where she doesn't get walked when its hot and humid, and prefers to lie on a damp blanket in the shadiest part of the garden.

I know each dog is different, and 8 is a good age so far, considering what she is crossed with as a good age for some of them is 10/11.

She had scans at martin referrals in kenilworth and well worth the money as he explains things perfectly to you. Our only problem would ever be if she needed an anesthetic as this will be very dangerous for her.

did you get the result of the test? did it show a problem? I woulsd be interested in finding out more about the test.

We haven't had it done yet, but will do very soon now -vet said to leave it for about a month.

Is it Troponin blood test (which detects damage to heart)

Or a different test?

Murmurs in puppies can often go with age and your vet should have advised this.  If you are worried you could go to a specialist and get scan done.

Interestingly though i had a giant breed girl who was diagnosed with Gr 2 SAS at 18 months via echo doppler.  Vet (heart specialist) said it would probably worsen over following 12 months.

We never went back for a further scan, she finished top bitch in the breed winning CCs from age 14 months through to 6 years.  She regularly ran 2-3 miles every day, she followed me on a bike and also came out riding with me.

She was never bred from

She died at 12.5 years (she was PTS due to mobility issues) and never suffered from heart problems, never had any meds.

Just wondered what happened to the OP's pup in the end as he would be 4 months old now. Did the murmur disappear?

Most have gone by 4 months but some it is up to 6 months and I would advise having pups tested after they are 6 months old whether of not the vet said there was a murmur at the time of the first inspection.

OP seems to have only posted the twice and it could be that it is all water under the bridge now and the pup is OK or returned to breeder, sad, follow ups are nice but rare.