Hi
Just wondered, I am aware of a stud breeder whose stud dog profile is on Chamdogs website and has sired a litter but the owner has not listed it with the other previous litters.
Would this be because the 'dam' is not listed on Champdogs website? Am i being paranoid or is this prefectly ok. I have reserved a pup from the unlisted litter and am wondering if there is a reason why its not listed against the stud dogs profile?

I am sure the stud owner will have their contact details listed why not ask them.

If the Dam's breeder isn't a member of Champdogs the litter won't show up on the Studs page.

Breeders are not required to add every litter they breed to their accounts, although most do.

Litters will only be officially credited to stud dog pages if the litter is advertised on Champdogs. This means that any litter that is not advertised on Champdogs will not be credited/appear on said stud dog own page.

It is in the interests of stud dog owners to encourage anyone whom uses their dog (and isn't already a member) to apply for membership and advertise their litters with us. That way the breeder gets a reputable and reliable site to advertise their litter on and the stud dog will be credited with that litter.

Please take a moment to read our Puppy Buyer Guide:

http://www.champdogs.co.uk/info/puppybuyer

It will help to steer you through the minefield that can sometimes surround buying a pedigree puppy.

Out of interest Admin if someone advertises a litter on cd but their advertisement is false, just their wording rather than dog or health test would you do anything?
Or is that down to the buyer to work put themselves?

As you have stated in your other thread the dam isn't KC registered so is unlikely to have any breed specific health tests done, I am surprised that the stud dog owner allowed their stud to be used on an unregistered bitch.

I think you have had a narrow escape, I hope you didn't pay a deposit when you went to see the pup?

There was no suggestion the pup wasn't KC registered, only that there were no health test records and also that the breeders were not ABS or even remotely knowledgeable.

I read it that she couldn't find the dam on the KC website, if no health checks have been done the dog should still appear on searching

I read it that there were no health checks recorded for the dam on the KC website, not that she wasn't registered.

I read it that way as well JG but as the OP has now caught the "breeder" out in that during the visit an acting performance was given and then during a phone-call low and behold a totally different attitude, both to the OP and the dogs. Strikes me this is a BYB that has gone ahead and bred a litter, probably against advice, and now finds that they can't sell them and that it is actually costing them money rather than making them some as was the reason for breeding in the first place. to make money rather than produce quality well bred pups.

>Out of interest Admin if someone advertises a litter on cd but their advertisement is false, just their wording rather than dog or health test would you do anything?

Yes. But we need to know about it in the first instance and that relies on someone telling us* :)

Obviously, there are only so many checks that we can carry out when a breeder adds a litter or dog entry. We have to offer a degree of trust (to the breeders listed with us) that the information supplied is correct and true and fits the criteria set out in our rules. Health tests results are easy enough to verify, so breeders are now unlikely to 'claim' test results that have not been carried out. Not all test results appear on the KC database, so unless the breeder includes the results and supplies officially documented proof, then those results will not appear.

It is rare to have 'false' information supplied with regards to pedigree's, although some breeders do exaggerate their dogs "achievements" and make them 'sound' better than they actually are. Thankfully, people tend to be very vigilant when it is matters of their own breed and tend to highlight anything they know is untrue directly to us. If people do not contact us, then we may not know anything is amiss :)

>Or is that down to the buyer to work put themselves?

It is in the interests of everyone seeking to buy a dog that they "do their own homework" before they purchase. Adverts for dogs are no different than adverts for anything else. You would not buy a car solely on what an advert says. The advert is the first port of call, but then you would go and see the car, check that the paperwork is all in order and get a general 'feel' if everything is as it should be. If it is not, then you walk away.

We strongly recommend that everyone reads Champdogs Puppy Buyer Guide before contacting any breeder listed with us. It will help to steer you through the minefield that can sometimes surround buying a pedigree puppy.

*admin@champdogs.co.uk

Hi
The bitch is registered with KC but there are no health/screening records. The breeder after being found out admitted to me that the bitch is his pet and not a show dog so he didn't want to spend the money on a screen check even though he was quite willing to sell pedigree pups by using the champion stud dog info as his selling tool.

> not a show dog so he didn't want to spend the money on a screen check

Argghhh...this is where these people go wrong, just because a dog isnt shown it doesnt mean that puppies dont need to be bred in a healthy manner. We all want healthy, happy puppies no matter if they are shown, after all most of our show dogs are pets first...same way as those who do agility, obedience or any other activity.

In these sort of situations I'd say the stud dog's owner is obviously in it for the money and has a lot to answer for, not being worried about who uses his/her dog and the health status of the bitch concerned. :(

Were the puppies KC reg? Its all sounding a bit fishy so making me wonder if the stud dog mentioned really is the stud dog used, just call me cynical ......

They had the KC forms if 'we' the buyers wanted to register the puppy but also said they don't have to be KC reg, it's optional!
The stud dog is KC reg and it's full details/screenings etc are recorded. I saw them myself. I can only assume the stud dog owners reasons to use the bitch was purely for money. I did speak to her and she told me that she was ok about it because her stud is hereditary clear so she felt the pups wd be ok health wise. But I am annoyed that the stud dog owner had no idea of the living environment of the bitch since the breeder brought his bitch to her premises. I am sure if she saw where the bitch lived she wd not have allowed her stud to be used.
This is the 2nd time I've been let down by a breeder. It really puts me off and also wrenches at your heart strings because no matter how much you try to detach yourself from a pup it just niggles in the back of your mind that no matter what the setup you just have to have the pup! It's very hard :(

> This is the 2nd time I've been let down by a breeder. It really puts me off and also wrenches at your heart strings because no matter how much you try to detach yourself from a pup it just niggles in the back of your mind that no matter what the setup you just have to have the pup! It's very hard :-(

This is why it is a god idea to check all the documentation side of thigns beforem ever going to view puppies.

Ideally you should put your name down with a breeder you have met before the puppies were born.  this enables you to meet the breeder and pups Mum and other relatives.

If dealing with a litter already on the ground make sure to take a friend who will not be easily swayed by cuteness.

It is no bad thing to check out if a breeder belongs to any of the breed clubs and if the parents are shown or worked.

Just googling their names will bring up results from competitions etc.

I know you only want a pet, but the breeder should be breeding with more in mind than just producing puppies to sell,(that as you have found means short cuts and minimising expenditure comes in, not doing what is best, but costly) their main aim should be breeding for work, show, and to continue (or start) their own bloodlines and be helping maintain the breed and it's gene pool in a healthy manner.

(Ideally you should put your name down with a breeder you have met before the puppies were born.  this enables you to meet the breeder and pups Mum and other relatives.)

I didn't know you could contact a breeder before pups are born and put your name down on a waiting list? The impression I have had with some breeders when I was happy to wait even a year for another litter the breeder seems to hope you go elsewhere.

I am very particular about the markings on a pup so I am restricting myself a bit.

Does anyone know of any breeders who are planning a litter of blue roans in near future?

Even being breed club members isn't fool proof, back in 2001 my Mum decided she was ready for another dog and decided she wanted to go back to mini long dachsies, I rang round breed clubs and after exhausting the members who may have had young adults for sale decided to try the breeders for a pup, started with the ones who were members on several club sites, my third call went as follows" Hi I am looking for a mini long dachshund pup" " hang on" there then followed at least 3 people shouting to each other " have we any mini long dachsie pups " followed by "No" 3 times by which time I had written puppy farm across the entry on my list, I later learnt this person is an AKCB and shows regularly but does produce lots of litters of more than one breed and I don't mean varieties of dachsie, my search for my Mum did help me in my search too which took longer as I wanted a show/breed quality pup/adult.

I think the opening question to a breeder then needs to be what were they hoping to achieve with this litter (polite way of asking why did they breed this litter).

If the breeder can then give a reasoning (beyond a litter to sell), further enquiries and a meeting can be arranged.

I would strongly advise even if there is a litter on the ground not to look at the pups until you have gotten to see relevant health records ands all the adults related to your pup.

When I have people to see the dogs I never allow them to see the pups (I don't want them swayed by cute) until they and I are sure that the bred is right for them, and I am happy with them having a puppy.

Just recently I had three sets of people come to see me and the breed at a show.

One is on my waiting list for my forthcoming litter (we have met several times already), one wants to go on a list for a future litter (if not mine ne may be someone else's, depending on what happens timing wise).

The third person had met the breed (posts on here) and we (people in the breed on here) wanted them to meet more of the breed and met various breeders and exhibitors.  This latter person will probably be looking to show and will want to get their eye in as to what lines they like etc, assuming they are still smitten.

I have certainly had people wanting a dog purely as a companion be on waiting list for some time, or been referred onto fellow trustworthy breeders.

We are a minority breed though, all know each other, and not many pups bred, but even in popular breeds good breeders will often have a waiting list and in fact be happy to know prospective owners well before they let them have a precious puppy, as to them they are not just a commodity.

Had you thought of going to a show to meet breeders and exhibitors?  A championship show is best (there will be more of the breed there).  This could be a breed club show or a general championship show.

If you say where you are we can let you know where the next show is that will not be too far to get too.  It can make a nice day out.

I started looking and planning for my current pup about six months before I got her. Having had a number of the breed in the past, I knew the lines I was keen to find in my new dog and ones that I didn't want to see. I spent a number of months reacquainting myself with pedigrees, selecting breeders and contacting them asking if they were planning a litter this year. After several emails and phone calls I finally homed in on a breeder and having talked at length and liking what she had to say, we went to see her and meet her dogs. At this stage the dog she wanted to have a litter from wasn't due to come into season for another month. The breeder and I were happy with each other and I put my name down on the list for a puppy. Everything seemed to be going really well, but sadly the dog suffered a pyo and lost the litter, so back to the drawing board. Luckily I found another breeder who we again visited and really got on well with and now we have our pup and we are more then pleased with her. Having made mistakes in the past on puppy buying because I rushed into it ,my advice is to take your time over this. Have a look on the Champdogs websites for your breed and talk to the breeders and visit them as well so you get to see the dogs and form an opinion of them as well as their owners. A well bred, well cared for puppy will be expensive, but well worth it in the long run.

I am in Scotland and I am aware of a show in Alloa this weekend but I wd rather not go to that one as I had a bad experience with a breeder from that area and I'm sure she will be showing her dogs there. So I don't think it wd be a good idea incase I bump into her.

What was the bad experience ?

Breeders network and tend to know what goes on within their breed, so your bad experience may reflect on them or you depending on the spin or situation.

So no bad thing to get to shows where breeders can meet you and make up their own mind. 

If there is an outstanding issue though, you do need to sort it out.

The breeder offered a pup for sale that she initially had planned to keep but because I pointed the pup out of the advertised photo she agreed to let it go. So, my hubby and I and 2 small children under 6 yrs of age went to see the pup. I knew when we got there that she hoped I wd not choose the pup as she brought in another 2 pups that were also for sale. But I knew what I wanted. But since it was my first visit and it was my hubby's first chance to meet a cocker (he had never seen one before) I wanted the chance to talk to my hubby in private to make sure he was happy before I said yes. So, the breeder offered to allow us to go home and think it over for the night and all I had to do was text her before 4pm the next day with my answer. So we left the breeder on that basis. The visit was around 7pm and we had travelled an hour to see the pup. My children were all excited and once I had discussed it with hubby we were all happy to have the pup so I text the breeder at about 10.30pm to say yes. Then there was silence. So about half an hour later my hubby decided to check our emails and low and behold there was a email sent to me about 2mins before I text the breeder to say that because we hasn't made the decision when we were at her house she has decided not to sell and keep the pup for herself because she never really wanted to sell the pup in the first place. We as a family were left distraught over it as she allowed us to walk away thinking we had some time to think about it. I am still extremely annoyed about it.

I should also add that I tried several times to plead for the breeder to change her mind but she was adamant that she was keeping the pup. So, I told her that I was making a formal complaint to Champdogs as its where she advertised the pups. I guess I will be blacklisted amongst the network in order to protect her rep but I did nothing wrong.
Champdogs did respond but there is not much they can do about it.

To be fair, a good breeder always breeds for THEMSELF and NOT to sell, and therefore should always keep the pup they like the best. Otherwise the litter being born will have been utterly pointless. As this breeder had other pups available I really don't see the problem.

I have been on several waiting lists for nearly 2 and a half years as I knew what I wanted and it was something I had to wait for. Just because you are on a waiting list doesn't mean you have to buy either you can back out at any time, if the quality isn't what you hoped for or you wanted a boy and a litter is of all girls or even the colours.

> I should also add that I tried several times to plead for the breeder to change her mind but she was adamant that she was keeping the pup

As Goldmali says, a breeder breeds for themselves and has prerogative to change their mind on the puppy they keep. Worth bearing in mind for the future.

I'm afraid I'm on the side of the "bad breeder" on this.
One hour isn't a lot of time to travel to see a puppy, taking young children on a first visit is a mistake, they are bound to be disappointed if even YOU decided to decline to purchase.
Many people haven't the guts to say to a buyer that they don't feel they want to sell to a particular family ...so wait to do it after they have left.
It is THEIR litter and we as breeders know that we have to be fully comfortable with who is having our pups. I'm happy to say no to as many as I feel are not my ideal.

My mother always said..."there are THREE sides to every story".

As the others have said disappointing as it is, a breeder if breeding for the right reasons (to improve their lines, and the breed), must keep the puppy that will facilitate this, as it is (or should be) the reason for breeding the litter. 

It is also very disappointing to a breeder who homes the best puppy in the litter to a home who were keen to go further by working or showing, and they fail to do so, it then seems the effort in breeding the litter is wasted, regarding breed progress.

It is only the excess puppies that are for sale, purely as pets, one always hopes some owners will do more.

Don't give up, use the advice given on here take a step back and start from scratch.. After iv spent a fair few months researching I then contact a breeder, we discuss their plans for the next year or two if I like them then I quickly get the important stuff out of the way that way both parties know where each stand and what each want.

So I ask how much is the puppy? Is there any restrictions and if so what are they? If available can I see copies of the tests results and plates of hip and elbow? What does the breeder expect from a puppy buyer? As I want a show puppy where in reality would I be on a waiting list? Why was the cobination put togther and their reason for breeding the litter? By doing this I know if potentially if its right for me, I have time before the litter Is born the double check what the breeder has sent and it gives me breathing room to back out if for whatever reason the need may be.

Equally the breeder may say to me they want the puppy shown in mainland Europe which I can't do as I work full time, or they expect hips to be checked (not scored) at my own cost between 4/5 months which I don't agree as its too young, or there is a highly restrictive contract that just doesn't suit me. I'm  a hundred percent honest with the answers and it gives the breeder chance to turn me down if they are after somebody specific.

These examples are for someone looking to buy from highly competative kennels around the world, so with that in mind take what i have written with a pinch of salt. For you if your just after a lovely member of the family and dont care too much about showing you don't need to ask half the questions I have to ask.

My point is do some research, get in mind what you really really want, even write a little list then start looking get on serial waiting lists that way you WILL eventually find your perfect little fur friend.

Good luck with your search

Well I feel the mistake was with the breeder because if she wanted to keep the pup for herself then why offer the pup up for sale? It was the pup I wanted and I was not interested in the other two pups because of the markings. I went specifically for that pup. I find it very confusing, one minute I'm being told even if I am only looking for a pet I should be going to a good breeder but then if I find one using a good breeder be prepared to choose a 2nd best since the breeder will keep the best. Shouldn't the breeder take there pick and then NOT show those ones to potential buyers?

Shouldn't the breeder take there pick and then NOT show those ones to potential buyers?

Yes but we're only human, we make mistakes and can change our minds. And of course we're not going to hide away a pup when people visit, they will see the entire litter. You said you initially spotted the pup in a photo and the breeder agreed to sell, maybe they just had a weak moment and then realised no, it wasn't a good idea after all.  If you are offered first pick by any breeder I'd run a mile to be honest because such a breeder will not have bred for the right reasons.

Marianne,
I understand the breeder didn't mean for it to happen. I can imagine being in that situation myself and in a moment of uncertainty hope that I don't choose the one that she didn't really want to sell.
My reason for bringing my kids along was actually to see how the mummy dog reacts around children. Even if an ad says the mummy is great around kids, I want to see that for myself and yes the risk of kids falling for every pup they meet is there but when I decide to visit a home I am expecting it to be the one! I wouldnt visit just to see a litter as I always ask the breeder beforehand to send me a photo of a specific pup that I ask for purely for the markings. Only when I am happy with the markings do I arrange a visit.

Anyway, I've moved on from it and want to concentrate on finding my puppy!

I have to agree with others, a good breeder breeds a litter for their own benefit first after lots of research, once the pups are born it may take up to 8 weeks to decide which pup would be the one to keep, some mature slower than others, the ugly duckling may become the beautiful swan, they may advertise the pups but the final decision is the breeders.

When I have gone to view pups I tend to be shown all the dogs/pups as an example of what this breeder produces and told which are still available, I would not try to sway the breeders decision on the matter, you picked the pup from an advert pic and were aware the breeder was thinking of keeping this pup and were shown others that were available, dismissing a pup that is going to be a family pet based on markings is not the done thing, the markings may have been the reason they were being offered as pet quality, they would still grow into happy healthy dogs.

Because a breeder you don't like may be at a show is not a reason not to go, it is easy to avoid those you don't wish to talk to even at breed club shows.

My parents never took us 4 kids to see puppies for the first visit, we would get to go the next time to see how the pups reacted to us and pick the one we would then get in a few weeks time.

Good Luck with your ongoing search

Rhona,
The markings were the reason the breeder changed her mind. To say dismissing a pup because of its markings is not the done thing, is silly. I have a specific style of markings that I like and if a pup even if it were to be the best top notch pup out there I would still decline it if the markings are not what I am looking for. I have to be 100% happy about every aspect of a puppy and that includes its markings. Its just the way I am. It may not be everybody's requirement but it is mine.
I do not want to fall out with anyone on here. I appreciate all of the advice and has been a huge learning curve to be aware of the many pitfalls out there. I hope I do find my puppy soon.

Don't think for one moment you will be black listed because you and the breeder wanted the same pup but it is unfortunate for you that the breeder had the right to keep that pup right up to the time it is in your arms along with the receipt for your money. Sad for you that the breeder changed their mind but that can and does happen.

Would steer clear of deciding to buy from a picture best take a look at the actual pup.

If it was me, I'd go along to the show in Alloa, what have you got to lose?  You'll meet other like minded people and hopefully meet other breeders, you may even see this particular person in a different light.  Don't cut off your nose to spite your face, as the saying goes.  :-)  Good luck in your search for a puppy.  The wait will be worth it in the end.

You mentioned that you wondered why we are saying to get a pup from good breeders. One of the main considerations when buying a dog should always be health and temperament and you are far more likely to get that from a breeder who is showing or working their dogs and breeding carefully. I ended up having a choice amongst the pups this time, although initially we all thought the selection was going to be by the breeder. It was something I had to live with as I was keen to get a specific colour, but decided that that the breeder, who had got to know the puppies for that last eight weeks, selecting the right puppy that was suitable for US, rather then what I might think was suitable on our few short visits, was going to work better. The breeders did temperament tests on the puppies and although the boy pups varied the girls were much the same. The breeders kept three puppies from the litter of ten and I ended up being able to select from the four girls available. I spent time talking to breeders wife and making my decision from her advice. She had spent every moment with the puppies from the moment they were born and had noted personality differences and what she said about my puppy is quite right. I wasn't looking for a puppy to show, but as a companion for me and my husband who are in our sixties and I reckon we have a super good looking girly with a lovely nature.
Go to that show, talk to the breeders and get to know them and what they want to achieve, I've had my breed for nearly thirty years, but I'm still learning new and interesting things about them.

I agree with Megslegs go along it is just something that happened that put it down to experience I doubt the breeder would avoid going if she knew you were going :-)

I think it is something you can put down to a learning experience and look at different ways of searching and looking for a pup by building a relationship with the breeder so both parties are comfortable and the communication will then be clearer about what both parties want. Don't rely on one visit and a decision there and then or the next day as that is not the way I feel it should be done.

Good luck

In my breed markings can and do change a lot as pup grows and gains an adult coat. Actually they change even after the first adult coat has come through. In a lot of breeds colour change happens, do cockers not go through the same type of thing then?

> to see how the mummy dog reacts around children

My suggestion would be to see the mother/litter by yourself/with your other half, then once decided take the children for a second visit just to confirm.

As an aside I always let visitors/puppy buyers see the whole litter/those which are left, even ones I am keeping myself, as I have nothing to hide & think its nice for people to see siblings but make it perfectly clear which puppy/ies they can choose from.

Its hard to get these knock backs & with your other experience aswell but your puppy will come one day & these experiences wont matter then. :)

> If you are offered first pick by any breeder I'd run a mile to be honest because such a breeder will not have bred for the right reasons.

That's rather a generalisation. 

In my numerically small breed too few litters are being bred to keep the breed gene pool viable, so I do breed when I do not plan to keep something and hope to place the pick with someone who hopefully will show, and maybe breed, and I can then include them or their offspring in future breeding plans.

Also if I only bred when keeping a pup each bitch would only have one litter, not enough to ascertain her producing ability, and which lines are best suited to use in further breeding.

My mentors sold far more winners to others due to restrictions on their time and facilities or numbers.

Those of us who have a limit of how many dogs we can keep do need to put some of our eggs in others baskets.

That's rather a generalisation.

In my numerically small breed too few litters are being bred to keep the breed gene pool viable, so I do breed when I do not plan to keep something and hope to place the pick with someone who hopefully will show, and maybe breed, and I can then include them or their offspring in future breeding plans.

Brainless that's no different AT ALL to what I said. If an unknown PET BUYER is being offered first pick, something is not right! Surely you would not breed a litter with the intention of keeping a line going only to let a pure pet buyer have first pick?

> if she wanted to keep the pup for herself then why offer the pup up for sale?

I understand it is disappointing from your point of view.

Choosing a puppy at a young age is very difficult so at the time a litter is viewed or photos seen then the decision will not have yet been made.  I post photos every few days/week.

Most breeders will not have even a vague idea of which pups they are likely to choose from before 5 weeks of age (at which point the ones they are unlikely to go for may be evident) and even at 8 weeks it may still be difficult and if we could we would wait until second teeth were in (4 months plus), but as people want their puppies home so we can't don't often do this.

So there will be occasions for last minute changes of heart.

I myself make it very clear that no-one can choose a puppy until I or whoever has first etc choice, has chosen theirs.  I do have the advantage that my breed are all same colour (with only lighter or darker, and that is never certain until adult).

> Surely you would not breed a litter with the intention of keeping a line going only to let a pure pet buyer have first pick?

No, I would hope that I had someone likely to get more involved, but I have kept the best pup back until last (I do this if I don't have a show home lined up) and sold to a pure pet buyer. 

They finally were persuaded to show the dog at almost two years of age, having been persuaded to attend breed events.  They went on to make the dog up, and a second one from another breeder, and were our judge this year at City of Birmingham some 13 1/2 years later.

We're on the same page Brainless -my point as all along that a pet buyer cannot and should not expect to be told by a breeder they can have pick of litter, as if they are told this chances are very high that it's a breeder just wanting to sell and breeding for all the wrong reasons.

Cocker Spaniel puppies of the marked variety, rather than solid coloured, can and do change as they grow.

My friend's beautiful pale blue roan puppy started off white with a black patch on each eye.   By the time he was 5 weeks old he was showing speckles on his skin.   At 8 weeks, he was looking freckly, but still pale.   As an adult he was very heavily marked with solid black on his eyes and ears and some large black patches on his body too!

Personally, if I were choosing a particoloured Cocker pup, I'd be more interested in the coat texture of the parents, than the markings of the pup.  A good flat, silky coat without too much feathering, is much easier to care for, and live with, than a thick, wavy, profuse coat.   I'd also take the advice of the breeder in choosing the right pup for my family.  They know the pups' characters much better than any snapshot I may have ;)

For what it's worth, when I bred my litters, I bred to keep a pup.  The buyers knew that I would have first choice of the bitches and that they weren't going to have a choice.   They were fine with it as luckily, in my breed there are no markings.    They also felt that they had chosen the right lines and (hopefully) the right breeder, so were happy with whatever pup they ended up with.  I did suggest to the buyers of the boy pups which one would suit them in character, and luckily, they all would have chosen that pup anyway :-D

I can't help thinking that choosing a puppy on markings alone, can possibly lead to disappointment if the markings change, as is all too likely :(

> I can't help thinking that choosing a puppy on markings alone, can possibly lead to disappointment if the markings change, as is all too likely :-(

I think you're right there... when I was in my teens we had a neighbour who bred & exhibited Blue Roan Cockers in partnership with her mother. The first newborn puppies I ever saw were hers, when we were invited to see the new litter (from a wise distance). The roaning comes in much later, and the one she kept to show and breed from changed enormously -  I couldn't have told which of the puppies I first saw in the nest was Breeze, who I later got to know well as she grew up.