I am sat at my computer with my chin on the keyboard and mouth wide open at some of the advice given out on a GSD rescue's Facebook page. Someone has spoken about using one of those awful 'pet corrector' sprays to stop their dog barking at another through the fence! I aired my view that I find them an unnecessary step in training and frankly likely to make this sort of tool is only going to make things worse.

I am now gob smacked as someone recommended taking out a jif lemon to squirt in your dog's face if he lunges/barks on a walk!!!!!!!

I have no idea why I even look at these groups any more!

Josh.... what can I say?
My guess is that not only have these people have always been doing this.... but modern technology has taken off the covers,  and also given them a platform to spread their views. It sickens me to the core.

You can choose to try and help, or turn your back. However,  after months of being on some of these groups, I've seen a few people as disgusted as I, and believe it or not they formed a group of their own in order to try and clamp down on irresponsible breeding. I never thought I'd find that, but at least it shows that even at grass roots level, some also find it abhorrent.

Bit if a breakthrough tonight when I explained how a certain tv trainer actually operates... they'd had no idea, but listened and were disgusted. There's always a way to get the message across, and I think I really scored when I started on the subject of cruelty in dog training.

Think the Jif would contain water and not lemon, have seen it used many times to stop barking in the car and it works.

>Think the Jif would contain water and not lemon, have seen it used many times to stop barking in the car and it works.

I used to think this is what people meant by this advice too, but I've seen a couple of things on fb where even if this is what they meant, it's not what they said - just references to using a 'Jif lemon' and squeezing in the dog's face. :(

Yes it means water not lemon juice. Mine would think it funny if I tried that squirt water at them and they start playing with it

I don't see a problem with that pet corrector spray, it's only compressed air so not harmful, no diffrent than squirting with water, shouting no ect
I gave one to my brother for there cat who kept chewing its skin till it became sore and bled, they spent loads as t the vets on steroid treatments and creams that didn't work and they were going to have him put down. They used the pet corrector every time he started chewing and he soon stopped and healed up.

I don't see a problem with that pet corrector spray, it's only compressed air so not harmful, no diffrent than squirting with water, shouting no ect

But NONE of those methods are good/fair/modern -they are ALL about punishing the dog rather than rewarding it for showing the behaviour we want. Rewards work better than punishment, even though as we know, it all WORKS. And weak dogs could get a lot worse by being treated this way. I have some dogs that would love being squirted with water and see it as a great game, others that would run away and hide in terror.

Ive given up looking at facebook for this reason.
Some of what I read was heartbreaking. So so sad

The way I see it is to reward the good behaviour and punish the bad. I'm not saying one thing should be used for all dogs,(or that it should be used for the dog mentioned in the oringal post). it should all be based on the individual dog but I don't see why people should never punish bad behaviour along with rewarding the good. Just wanted to say my thought on the general use of the spray mentioned

> they are ALL about punishing the dog rather than rewarding it for showing the behaviour we want. Rewards work better than punishment, even though as we know, it all WORKS. And weak dogs could get a lot worse by being treated this way. I have some dogs that would love being squirted with water and see it as a great game, others that would run away and hide in terror.

And other strong minded ones like most Spitz, it is a mild Aversive, enough to interrupts an undesirable behaviour (usually barking).

I have used this since my first (of this breed), and it is the only thing that works to limit excited barking en-masse.

I only need to say, right where's that bottle and they all look a bit sheepish and shut up.

Now my first dog a Groenendael bitch of soft temperament, you are right it would be too much.

Agree Brainless it words with anticipation barking and nothing else does. My dogs bark at the neighbours I say quite, they shut up but if they know something good is about to happen they bark I say quite, they stop, they are praised or treated, they bark - continuum. But I say quite, they stop, they start again and I pick up a small plastic bottle, they go to sleep.

I don't see why people should never punish bad behaviour along with rewarding the good.

Because we know better these days, there is no need. There are better methods. And as we have at least all agreed on -for SOME dogs it could make things potentially a lot worse. Therefore it is quite dangerous to anywhere publicly recommend such methods. Here's a short article about some scientific research (very small base though) about punishment:
http://maddiesinstitute.typepad.com/chewonthis/2013/07/study-positive-training-methods-associated-with-fewer-behavior-problems-in-dogs.html

I used to homecheck/dog assess/arrange & carry out dog collections/rehomings for a national breed rescue, their rules for me when handling their dogs were to use a choker/slip lead only as all other collars are not suitable for the breed & mean they can & will escape ! Their training guidance for new owners also includes 1960s force methods using chokers. I asked who had written the advice & was told that it was the person I was talking to as they had the most experience in dealing with the breed far more than any I had-was added as a rider. Quite confusing as I have experience with the breed for longer than this person had been alive !

Needless to say I am no longer involved with them as my views & silly ideas(including clicker & treat training)were too radical :-O

Because we know better these days, there is no need. There are better methods. And as we have at least all agreed on -for SOME dogs it could make things potentially a lot worse. Therefore it is quite dangerous to anywhere publicly recommend such methods. Here's a short article about some scientific research (very small base though) about punishment:

The link you posted talks about high level of punishments I'm not saying punishments should be used all the time over rewards I'm saying mild punishments like using water, loud noise isn't necessarily bad along with rewarding for good behaviour. i think when possible it's best to use positive methods, and when using a punishment it shouldn't be something that terrifies the dog more of an annoyance
I get what you saying that for some dogs it's not a good idea and can make things worse and I completely agree but for some dogs it nothing more than an annoyance and it doesn't not harm them being squirted with water or hearing a noise.

I wasn't saying it was appropriate or not to recommend on Facebook or that is was the right or wrong action for the dog mentioned I was referring to the spray it's self that in some cases it is usefull.

I prefur to reward my dog for good behaviour and I do, we train with positive methods using treats and praise but I don't think bad behaviour should just be ingored, depending on the reason for the behaviour and the dogs personality will decide what action is needed, like distracting it, removing it from the area, a squirt with water or whatever.
Times where I couldn't distract my girl for doing an inappropriate behaviour at home she got a squirt of water, she would stop then I could get her attention and redirect her into doing something good where she would get a reward. my girl is not afraid of the water bottle and loves water chucked for her, she just doesn't like being squirted with it. Rarely does she get squirted now, once in a blue moon.

I think I've been misunderstood I'm not saying all dogs should be punished for everything I'm just saying that for some dogs distracting and rewarding doesn't work all the time and in those times a mild punishment (water, noise, stern no) can be used to interrupt the behaviour so you can then use a positive method to show it what you want to to do.

How do you know your dogs understand their"punishment" ? Do they ever offer that behaviour again ? if they do they have not understood that the behaviour was/is not acceptable & therefore the"punishment"has failed QED really

Just like with any training it takes repetition for a dog to lurn, like when I taught her to bow it took a few goes for her to lurn she got the treat for being in that position. The only way I could think a dog would lurn first time not to do something would be if it found the punishment realy bad, like being painfully or scairy. with a squirt of water my dog had lurnt that doing a certain actions ment she would get an annoying squirt, it didn't harm her or scare her and she would stop what she was doing which then allowed for her to be redirected to what she should be doing where she was then rewarded for doing the right things.
When I say punishment I'm talking about mild things like a stern no or removing the dog from a room if they get over excited with guests, not things like hurting the dog, and I've said when possible positive methods should be used first and good behaviour should be rewarded.

Think This is getting a bit off topic now.

Charlie Clarricottes (SP) uses Pet Correctors, the chap who used to write the training pages in one of the dog mags. I see no harm in them or squirting water etc....My view is that the vets are full of dogs PTS in the same way schools are full of dysfunctional kids because punishment is now a dirty word

He was the chap who recommended rehoming a dog because the owner was having problems with recall ...

> I see no harm in them or squirting water etc....

Tell that to my dog who became aggressive over anyone going near her collar, after she was squirted for mucking around when the owners were trying to put a harness on her.  Before I owned her she snapped at me for just moving to touch her, because of that approach.  They thought she was just messing around, a delinquent of sorts - she was actually very stressed about the whole process of having a harness put on and was trying to tell her owners to stop.

The vets are full of dogs to be PTS because people can't be bothered to put the work in, or don't bother to research what they're getting only to find they've got a very energetic/demanding/intelligent/sensitive breed (all of which apply to the above dog), or people know zip about body language and continually ignore warnings from a worried dog until the dog is one day pushed too far (again, as above), or people want a quick fix for a problem and just give up when they find out they'll actually have to put some work in.  Or, any of the myriad of utterly pathetic reasons people don't want their dogs anymore, things like simply not wanting to have to pay for dog food anymore (and yes, this is a real reason - my first dog was heading that way, fortunately for her my sister already knew her from working at a boarding kennels so she came to us).

In my daily life walking and working with dogs I see punishment everywhere - it is still very much alive and kicking.  Every new client I've seen this year I've had to talk through the reasons why it's not only a bad idea to begin with, but why it's making their dog's issues worse already and in every single case, as soon as they calm down, stop punishing the dog and start rewarding the good stuff, they see an improvement and in every single case, it's been within the first week.  Several of my own dogs have been "trained" the old school ways (whether physical punishment, pack theory/dominance or a combination) and have ended up here as a result after they became aggressive as a direct consequence.

Well we will have to agree to differ , in my experience you tailor the training to the dog and if the animal is getting stressed you re-think it and you are right that some people cannot read body language. Yes dogs are put to sleep because of being that can't be bothered etc but there are too many trainers who want you to wait for a good behaviour to present itself whilst the animal is displaying lots of bad ones that you ignore or distract.

As for Clarricotes, I hear good and bad but telling someone to give up their dog because of its bad recall may have been doing the dog a favour....without the facts I wouldn't express an opionion on that.

I know far too many people who attend training classes with a reward based only trainer whose dog just gets progressively worse each week because the training isn't working. Often in village halls and quite often the environment is totally unsuitable for the animal. Perhaps there are just too many bad trainers around regardless of how they do it

>As for Clarricotes, I hear good and bad but telling someone to give up their dog because of its bad recall may have been doing the dog a favour....without the facts I wouldn't express an opionion on that.

In this instance he offered absolutely no other advice: no training methods to try, for example. I was the person who wrote to him when I was having trouble with Piglet, many years ago!

Couldn't reply properly last night as my lappy was telling me I only had 14% battery left.....

I have never written to Clarricott but have attended his training premises a few times, personally I prefer his wife's training but he is more than capable of getting dogs to recall, so can't image why he would take such a stance. His people skills are not great that's for sure.

Years ago I went to watch a trainer who had started up at a village hall near me, she had passed some distance learning course and if memory serves had to be actually training people, and observed doing so, to become accredited. She was anti check chains and anti half check. She told a guy with a gundog (I can't recall whether it was a spaniel or a Lab now) not to return for the second week if he came with a slip lead on his dog. His dog was beautifully behaved, he actually trained gundogs and had gone for a nosey too. 

Anyways I digress, she was a fan of the late, great John Fisher and was very keen on his training discs. She used them on a wee cocker pup who was very vocal, by the end of a few weeks he was hiding under chairs and tables and instead of coming gaily into club he was being dragged in. I wouldn't tell anyone that the discs were a bad idea because of that and she wasn't particularly adept at using them. Often it isn't one particular thing that makes a dog a nervous wreck etc, there maybe associations. It might be that the owners were throwing the discs at the dog at home or hitting it with a rolled up paper and the disc, water squirting..whatever, were merely a prelude. People very rarely tell you the whole story when they have a problem. I certainly would not advocate squirting water at a dog that was fearful of a harness but I am quite happy to use it on my dogs if I see fit, although I can't remember the last time I did.

I hate things that make a noise to "distract" a dog - and training discs are very near the top of my list of loathsome training aids. Why would you want to startle your dog on purpose and also affect all the dogs around it? I was sitting quietly with one of my dogs waiting my turn at a training club when someone else decided they needed to use training discs  to stop their dog from barking - right next door to my dog who was in a down stay. Frightened the life out of myself and my dog, broke his stay as he jumped up in fright and made him very reluctant to repeat the exercise.My dog did not need to be "punished" -  he was doing the right thing until the inconsiderate and ill-informed owner next door ruined it.

All my dogs are trained using rewards for the correct behaviour - I want them to trust me not be wary of me.

>people want a quick fix for a problem and just give up when they find out they'll actually have to put some work in

I won't highlight the whole post.  But would say - excellent post Nikita.