I am desperate to hear anyone's view or experiences on anything similar to what has happened to my babies this week!!!!
This year has been awful and it keeps getting worse.

I currently have a litter of 9 puppies, they were born fit and well. Monday night everything was normal, playing, eating etc. Tuesday morning 2 puppies were laid dead in their whelping area, both laid like they were asleep.
The shock was unbelievable....I have never experienced anything like this ever. I have lost puppies that were small, weak, or just fail to thrive etc the stuff all us breeders will go through at some point but this???????

The puppies were sent for a autopsy as I had to have answers as I have done nothing but cry with the thought of what did I do!!!!!!

Well the results have just come back and they were normal?????????????????????
how can 2 puppies at that aged, acting perfectly normal at midnight, be dead the next morning?
I am sat here now again in floods as if they were normal .... what happened. Mum was not in with them either so not an injury from her. no illness, no vomiting, upset tums, absolutely nothing.
The only thing is they were wormed on sunday evening???? dead Tuesday morning????
please if anyone has any suggestions or have heard of this before please let me hear your experience as I am constantly on edge now watching the others continuously.........im soooo frightened.
due to their breed which I cant state the biggest suspect was heart but they were normal......im shocked and absolutely devastated and don't know how I will deal with this as I just need answers.
Has anyone heard of this happening 36 hrs after worming. drontal was used and I have used it the same way for 10 years :( 
please help what could of killed my little ones

So sorry for the loss of your little ones, it must have been a dreadful shock. Sorry I can't be of any help as I have not experienced anything similar myself. There are lots of experienced breeders on here so I am sure someone may be able to help.
Sending you a {hug} to help you feel better.

So sorry to hear about this. What a dreadful shock, it's absolutely heart-breaking. xxxx and hugs.

So sorry....heartbreaking for you. I've not lost a pup that young but did have one of my puppy buyers phone me in tears having found a pup I sold them dead in his bed aged 5 months.

Autopsy was done...completely healthy normal pup,nothing was found...the vet said it can happen,similair to cot death.

Sorry,have no other ideas but hope you get some answers and have no further losses

Ali

MandyC I can't believe what a year you are having, absolutely terrible and I don't blame you for sobbing your heart out here I would be so devastated, the pups should not have passed like this.

I've never heard of this and like you have always used drontal puppy, never with any side affects. I've come across this below which is very interesting as to why some pups may die shortly after worming it makes sense that this may have happened to your pups.

http://www.vetcircles.net/threads/16231-The-puppy-died-soon-after-deworming

However, if your vet said everything is normal i.e blood tests, organs etc I can't believe that he would not have checked the intestines too, so even though it looks like a good answer I guess it may not be the case, however, worth checking that he did open up the intestines.

I'm so very sorry, and it is all I can come up with if the autopsy showed everything as 'normal', I would just be sleeping back downstairs with the pups again, it's so devastating, hope the remaining pups will continue to thrive and sending a big {{{hug}}} xx

Thanks Carrington I had a look at that. I just feel it was connected to the wormer for 2 to die at the same time but they showed no signs of illness or discomfort at all and were playing happily and fed off mum before bed. both were laid like they were asleep so looked peaceful, no struggle.
If feel if they had a worm burden so bad to cause an obstruction they would of shown signs and after worming I found 1 worm in one of the puppies poo's only so again don't feel they were heavily worm burdened but I guess I will never know. im confused as my vet looked at the heart of the boy and said its valves were thick, yet the autopsy at the lab revealed hearts were both normal??????????

cant get them out of my mind and have done nothing but cry since Tuesday. Thing is I will be terrified of worming the rest when its time for their next wormer in 2 weeks!!!!
Awful awful thing to happen and to have no answers :(
Just have to keep asking myself did I miss something?

If the pups were acting normally, playing, eating and toileting fine, showing no signs of pain or discomfort, and the dam is fit and healthy, I can't think for a minute that any of us would have suspected a thing, 5 week old pups are the life and soul, little monkeys, and anyone would notice if a pup let alone two were acting differently, so no I don't think that you missed anything, you'd have spotted a change we know their little characters at 5 weeks.

It is a complete mystery and worse one that is showing no answer at all, don't beat yourself up, I know saying that is easy as we would all be like you, going round and round in our heads what, how, why?

You've been giving drontal since the pups were two weeks old with no bad results, all I can say is if for some reason in-between treatments those two pups became heavily infected with worms in the intestines,  if you hadn't given a wormer they would have been starved of food and nutrients, it's a catch 22. You have to worm the pups.

It may have been nothing to do with the wormer at all though, just an easy answer to this, as nothing else is showing up (did the vet check for poisons etc too?) and I don't understand the conflicting results of the heart between your vet and the lab either?

I really hate 'don't knows' and it must be driving you mad with questions and grief. At least an answer would allow you to accept and move on.

Sadly, it looks as though there's not going to be a positive answer here {{hug}} I would just try to focus on the remaining pups to take my mind off them and watch them carefully, you need to put on a smile for your pups new owners as that is what they will need to see.... and know most of all that you didn't miss anything, you're not to blame for this......... x

Sorry for your loss Mandy :(  Is there any chance Mom may have lay on the pups?  One of my bitches lay on one of her pups. She didnt seem to realise she was lying on him but when I went in to check them, he was underneath her rib cage and lifeless.  There was not a mark on him. x

Thanks Justine. no mum was not in with the pups overnight. I just cant come up with any answer at all!!! :(
That's what makes it even more heartbreaking as it seems like a total senseless loss of 2 little babies and I feel responsible I just don't know how though!

Doing the autopsy I had hoped would tell me why but it really has made me feel worse as it just says to me that they were fine......so what did I do!!!!!

You so don't deserve this. :( And you did nothing wrong! How very, very strange. I have no idea whatsoever of what could have happened.

My first litter were born healthy, 7 in total. At 5 weeks old they were all doing very well, full of energy and mischief. One morning I woke to one beautiful young pup dead in the pen; a basic autopsy at the vets showed that everything looked normal and they could offer no explanation for the sudden death.

Paranoid first time breeder now became super, crazy paranoid breeder that watched the litter constantly, only relaxing after a few days of "nothing".
At 5 1/2 weeks old I lost the second pup. I noticed around 2pm that pup was breathing ever so slightly differently to the others so rushed him to the vets. He was checked over by the vet who could find nothing apparent, but due to my insistence they agreed to keep him in for observation. At 7pm the vets called to say he was perfectly fine and I collected him; he dropped down dead 2 hours later.

After speaking to the vet it was agreed that the deceased pup should be sent away for full examination.

During the night I lost another one and was now totally distraught... my breeding mentor even decided to travel from Scotland to be with me as I was convinced it was something I was or was not doing that was killing them. All pups were reserved so I also had to cope with the heartbreak of calling their prospective parents and telling them the awful news.

And still the four remaining pups looked healthy and happy......until another passed away two nights later.

The following day I received the devastating news from the autopsy that the deceased puppy had cardiac parvo virus infection. I struggled to accept this as all my girls were fully vaccinated and the bitch had shown no signs of illness throughout pregnancy or afterwards.

A titor test was performed on the mother, who had been vaccinated 10 months earlier and received boosters throughout her life, and it was found that she carried no immunity to the disease. It was therefore possible that she had contracted parvo whilst the pups were in utero and the virus in turn was passed to the pups. This is what was killing them.

The cardiac manifestation of parvo is characterized by cardiovascular failure or respiratory failure in puppies. The cardiac variant of parvo is much less common than the intestinal form and is found in very young puppies under eight weeks old. These puppies usually have been infected by a mother with parvo while they were still in utero. The virus targets the muscles of the heart and these muscles are not strong enough to withstand the virus. In almost all cases of cardiac parvo virus infection, young puppies die. The death of a puppy infected with this variant of parvo can come on suddenly with little sign of distress or it can be accompanied by a short period of respiratory trouble. Veterinary surgeons have found that the virus results in microscopic necrosis of heart tissue in dogs that do not survive.

I then had to make the difficult decision to have the rest of the litter euthanized as even in dogs that are somehow able to withstand this virus, there is evidence of fibrosis or the growth of fibrous tissue which may cause complication in later life. For a long time afterwards I questioned if I could have done or been more for these little guys and girls....

The vet could offer no explanation for the lack of immunity, neither could a specialist that I was referred to.

Even now, several years later I routinely Titor test any girl I intend to mate (although they are fully vaccinated) as I could not face that level of heartbreak again.

I have shared my story with you, not to scare or worry you, but so that you know that you are not alone. We all question our capability at some point. I now accept that sometimes we have no control over things, they just happen, and however careful and cautious we are sometimes we cannot prevent a puppy losing its life.

I hope that you will enjoy the next few weeks with the rest of your litter and I am sure when you see them held in their new families arms that your devastation will lessen, the pain will ease and you will hopefully realise that you did a really brilliant job of raising them.

Sending you and your litter my very warmest wishes.....

A wonderful and very insightful post darwinawards, a basic autopsy at the vets showed that everything looked normal and they could offer no explanation for the sudden death. alas, it shows that routine autopsies do not always show things up if they don't know what to look for..........

What a terribly tragic first litter experience, and you are so right, sometimes things are just out of our hands no matter what we do as hard as it is to accept. x

omg......what a shocking story. That is just so very very sad.
I have actually been reading about exactly that this weekend.....all i have done since last Tuesday is scour the internet.....driving myself insane i think :(

I am going to speak with my vet tomorrow when they are open as i am now concerned that he has only requested an evaluation of the heart only and im hoping i will still be able to request a further investigation tomorrow morning, do you think they would of held her little body for a while after incase of further requests or do you think i will be too late.....i really need answers as i am making myself quite ill over this as like i say i have been breeding for 10 years and have NEVER experienced this ever ..... the shock was just awful especially to find them both at the same time.

I am thankful for your post as like you say it makes me realise i am not the only one to lose babies sudden and totally unexpected at this older age but the outcome of your whole litter terrifies me without a doubt.
I am sorry for your awful experience that must of been horrendous :( can i ask did the puppy you found in the pen look peaceful like it died sleeping? and the one that you lost at home was that an instant death, did you see him? The only comfort i can take at the moment is it genuinely looked like my 2 babies were asleep.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me though and i will update if i do manage to have a full autopsy done if one hasn't been done. if it has and still nothing then i am completely at a loss as to why and guess i will never know and will always wonder if i could of prevented their deaths in some way. x

Superb post darwinawards . Thank you for sharing your sad experience with the forum . What you wrote was thoughtful and erudite.

Vaccination against viral  infection is an inexact science. We cannot be sure that the vaccination is adequate protection in the event of exposure to the virus unless we antibody titre test. I will be doing so prior to any future litters.

I think this thread should be enforced reading for all those people who think it would be cute to breed from their dogs without thinking. To have a pup die when first born is awful, but at five weeks is simply dreadful. I visited my current pup when she was five weeks and she full of beans as she is now at thirteen weeks, I just can't imagine how you must be feeling.

Hello,

I do hope that your remaining litter are doing well. In answer to your questions, the pups that passed away during the night looked just as though they had fallen asleep and chose not to wake up. The little one who I saw pass away was lying curled up on a blanket in the living room. It woke and on finding its feet it seemed to stumble (only for a few seconds) and then almost immediately fell back down. I rushed over, literally a couple of steps, but it had stopped breathing and had died in an instant. Although I tried mouth to mouth I knew in my heart there was no hope.

I worried for a long time that if I had been a more experienced breeder I might have noticed  something unusual in their behaviour at a much earlier stage, but now, with hindsight and the experience of these other litters, I know that they showed no signs of illness.

Please don't continue to punish yourself as with or without an answer you can only do what you believe is right at the time. All any of us can do is our very best........