I know this has probably been debated before but I'd like your thoughts on vaccinations and titre testing.

My vet runs a 3 year cycle for Distemper, Hepatitis and Parvo.  But insist on Parainfluenza and lepto every year.  Their cost for titre testing is £88.20 per dog and they say that only tests for Distemper, Hepatitis and Parvo anyway (they can test for Lepto but this is far more expensive).  They also say the side effects of over-vaccinating for Parainfluenza and lepto are negligible.  The annual flu and Lepto jab is the same cost as the full annual booster.

So, my boys boosters are due (flu and lepto only this year), would you agree with my vets that this is compulsory?

No Vaccinations are compulsory in the UK.  There is enough scientific evidence now that immunity from the core diseases, last far longer than 3yrs.  Dr Shultz is the leading world authority on immunology having carried out scientific research since the 1970's.
The link below is very lengthy ( you will need two cups of coffee and a few biscuits and a paper and pen to take notes) But well worth viewing, in particular the end where he is asked what he does with his own dogs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Xd5ghnlJ4

There is now a cheaper in house in-house titre system called Vaccicheck, the vet can take a small sample of blood from the ear. Each kit cost approx. £12 but vets have to buy a box of 12.
It can be obtained from the following veterinary supplier :-
Woodley Equipment Company Ltd.
Old Station Park Buildings,
St John Street Bolton, Lancashire. BL6 7NY
Tel :- 01204 669033
www.sales@woodleyequipment.co.

I understand that some branches of Companion Care Vets ( Inside Pets at Home) are now offering Vaccicheck at a cost of approx. £35 per dog.
The lepto vaccine is the one that carries the most risk of adverse reaction when given alone, I will pop up some other links, but I am not sure how to copy more than one at a time.

Another very useful link.

http://www.wsava.org/guidelines/vaccination-guidelines

Information on reactions to the Lepto. Vaccine.
http://www.ehow.com/about_6589631_leptospirosis-vaccine-reactions-dogs.html

There is a Facebook Group and if you go to files there is a lot of information there, or you can ask a question of the group.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/50163890984/?hc_location=stream

> They also say the side effects of over-vaccinating for Parainfluenza and lepto are negligible.

That doesn't surprise me - lepto at least only lasts for 6 months so it would be harder to over-vaccinate it on an annual shedule ;-)

Personally, I don't booster my dogs at all - I believe it to be neither necessary nor safe.  Pups get their puppy course, with trepidation (Remy reacted severely to his first shot and I believe it caused the majority of his unusual health issues), and that's it.

Titre testing I am very much on the fence about; I've read a few times recently that it's now thought to just show a snapshot and is not a reliable picture of immunity, throwing both false positives and negatives.  Something to do with a positive for immunity only showing if a dog has been recently exposed to a pathogen (so there would be a rise in antibodies in response to the exposure), and a negative might not really be a negative if the dog simply hasn't been exposed recently - so the antibodies may be there and be sufficient, but not be being made (in response to a threat) at the time of testing.  But don't quote me on that!  It's just what I've read, I don't have a source for it.

Five years ago, when I had my last pup vaccinated, I was quoted an extra £5 for the Kennel Cough and Lepto vaccine on top the 'normal' puppy vaccs at the Budget Vets local to me.

I hardly think it would have gone up to £80 in five years, but I could be wrong :-/

Personally, I've only ever had the basic puppy vaccs done with my last 2 pups, the first one hada few boosters, but I wasn't happy about it.     Then I read all the research on it and decided to stop.  

Just to make this a bit more balanced -I am one that vaccinate every dog every year, all their lives, and I'm not seeing any problems. I've seen dogs die from distemper and parvo, including one of my own whose breeder did not vaccinate their dogs (she got distemper, survived it but died on her first birthday instead from problems caused by the distemper), but I've not seen problems with the vaccinations.  I'm not prepared to take the risk of not vaccinating as my dogs go all over the country, some all over the world, to shows and training classes etc, and it's never caused me any problems. Well I do have ONE dog I have stopped vaccinating, as she did react badly each time with a lot of pain. (Pain only, nothing else. Was very sore for about a week after each time.) She never leaves the area here, never goes for walks elsewhere or to classes or shows. And has been spayed. She's the only dog I have ever owned that has been left unvaccinated -but she had the puppy vaccs in the first year and boosters in the second and third year. I've had dogs for 31 years, a total of 46 dogs (think I've counted right!) so just one of 46 showed any problems. Hence I don't see any need to titre test, I just vaccinate.

When you ask the vaccination question, you will always get plenty of people who say they don't vaccinate, it is dangerous etc, so I just wanted to add that it doesn't mean ALL dogs get problems. Most are absolutely fine.

I've vaccinated every year with (so far!) no problems. I would like to titre test, but it's just so expensive and then if you need the vaccine on top of that it's ridiculous with 4 dogs to pay for. I can sympathise though with the people who have had dogs with bad reactions and I completely understand why they are wary.

I would agree with you Goldmali in that the vast majority of dogs do not have an immediate reaction to the vaccinations, but there is evidence now to show that long term damage can be done by constant boostering.
Most of the drug companies own websites say that the vaccines provide immunity for at least three years, so why are vets still insisting on putting chemicals into our dogs year after year ?
The year period was just made up when vaccinations first came about, as at that time they had no idea of how long immunity lasted and it  has just stayed as it provides a valuable and regular income for vets.

If you listen to the Dr Shultz interview he explains that you can not in fact booster immunity, the dog is either immune or it isn't and that their are certain dogs that are resistant, so no matter how many times they are vaccinated they will still not develop immunity to certain diseases.
From groups of people who only give puppy vaccinations and then another vaccination 12 months later, there is evidence that dogs do not develop as many cancers or diseases of the endocrine system, and that they live a much healthier life into old age and longevity is much greater.
The titre or Vaccicheck test allows owners to know if there dog is immune to the core diseases, if the dog has a positive result then the dog has immunity and then there is no need to vaccinate.
Again all in the Shultz interview, but he says there is no need to worry about levels as these change depending on if the dog has had recent exposure to the disease.
Most vets will have never done any research into vaccinations or immunology at best they will have received a couple of lectures on it at Vet School usually given by one of the drug companies who will have a vested interest.
Or you can read articles by Dr Jean Dobbs or Dr Schultz who have spent a lifetime on research, and have the data to back up their research.
There are some enlightened vets out there who are offering different vaccination protocols and titre testing, so it is up to the individual to decide what is the best option for them and their dog.
Any dog who is ill should never receive a vaccination, this is clearly stated in the information leaflets accompanying the vaccine, yet it is surprising how many vets do give a booster when a dog is in the surgery for a health issue.

 

LucyDogs I think you will find that with the in-house Vaccicheck at £12 a test, titre testing will soon become a lot cheaper as more vets take it up.
At present their are groups of people, friends, dog clubs etc. who are buying a box of 12 between them and this is working out to be quite reasonable.
If the dogs have received their puppy and first year vaccinations then it is highly unlikely that a booster will be necessary.
In time I think group testing's just as we do for eyes will become the norm and more and more vets are beginning to stock the test now due to more people becoming aware and asking for it.

Another one here who vaccinates all 21 dogs annually.  My vet does some boosters every 3 years and always tells me which ones are due.  I do get 10% discount as I do give them a lot of business.

For me it works.

Thanks all for your replies. To be honest I've never vaccinated my previous dogs past their puppy shots but my current boys are therapy dogs and blood donors so have to be vaccinated to stay registered. I'm not overjoyed giving the 3 year booster and think ill titre test next year when it becomes due. But im really unhappy about the annual flu/lepto jab but my vet has put the frighteners on me........my boys swim a lot, and apparently lepto is rife?! How dangerous is it?

I would agree with you Goldmali in that the vast majority of dogs do not have an immediate reaction to the vaccinations, but there is evidence now to show that long term damage can be done by constant boostering.
Most of the drug companies own websites say that the vaccines provide immunity for at least three years, so why are vets still insisting on putting chemicals into our dogs year after year ?

What makes you think vets booster for the same thing every year? They always check WHAT is due that year, and booster what is necessary. And if so many dogs got ill, how come I've had so many that weren't? :) My dogs hardly ever see the vet, it's usually just for the annual booster and the one off hip scoring and eventually bitch spay later in life. At the moment I have a 13 year old, two 11 year olds, a 10 year old, an 8 year old and two 7 year olds -that's the current veterans among the younger dogs. The 13 year old is having some current problems with her spine, that's old age (arthritis most likely). The 11 year olds have never seen a vet in their lives other than for neutering, boosters and one of them once had injuries that needed stitches. They've not had as much as an eye or ear infection.

My last Cavalier lived to 15 years and 2 months of age, boostered every year of his life. I'm sure I don't have to explain what a good age that is for a Cavalier. Yes he had MVD, but still lived as long as this. So I'm perfectly happy to continue as I am.

That's funny JeanSW, 21 dogs here as well, and my vets also tell me what is due and they also give me 10 % discount. (On everything.) :)

dorcas0161 - I know we've discussed Vaccicheck before on CD :-) My vets are still insisting the cost of each test is £24! Just wondering, did you get a price for the kits direct from the supplier or through your vet? Just wondering if my vet has doubled up on cost in an attempt to discourage me from using it :-( Must admit, too many other things going on at the moment to have followed through, but follow through I must ;-)

What makes you think vets booster for the same thing every year? They always check WHAT is due that year, and booster what is necessary. And if so many dogs got ill, how come I've had so many that weren't?

Well possibly because you just said Annual, and also because there is still an awful lot of vets out there who give the multi vaccination every year.

With regard to why your dogs have not got ill, who knows ? Some breeds are more susceptible to over vaccination than others.
It also takes different forms depending on how the immune system is affected. Skin, disease, cancer IBS are all recognised symptoms.
But if you choose to believe your vet knows better than the leading scientists in the field who have published research on the subject, then that is entirely your choice to make.

Hi Trialist.

http://www.woodleyequipment.com/uk-veterinary/immunology/immunocomb-vaccicheck-antibody-test-kit-464-164-1271.php#

This is the company in the UK who supplies Vaccicheck, I couldn't find a price on the site but as far as I know it works out at approx. £12 each for a box of 12.

Some vets are not aware that there is now a Supplier in the UK as previously it had to be purchased from the USA.  So vets should now be able to save on shipping cost.
Obviously there will be a charge for the vets time and for taking the blood sample, but this can be done from a small prick on the ear.
If you ask on the Facebook Group I posted a link to earlier, people on there may be able to put you in touch with a vet in your area. Or a group testing you could join. Companion Care Vets are a good starting point, but they have not rolled it out to all branches at yet.

My vet also offered me Vaccicheck kits at cost price (approx £12 each) but I'd have to buy the lot.

Just wanted to add this interesting blog:http://vitalanimal.com/titer-test/

With regard to why your dogs have not got ill, who knows ? Some breeds are more susceptible to over vaccination than others.
It also takes different forms depending on how the immune system is affected. Skin, disease, cancer IBS are all recognised symptoms.

Clearly then not Golden Retrievers, Cavaliers, Papillons, Malinois, crossbreeds with Goldens in, Border Collies, Cocker Spaniels and Labradors, as those are all the breeds I have had in my life. I think it is FAR too convenient to blame everything on vaccinations rather than look for another cause. I've not had problems with cancer, and the odd times in the past I had any problems with skin problems or one single case of a delicate stomach (would not label it IBS) it was easily solved by just switching food.

ive had my girl titre tested 3 times so far, first I didn't pay for as the vac company payed that as my girls puppy ones didn't take, the second two I payed for, they were about £60 maby less, and for some reason they did them with different labs (that annoyed me as the second time the lab they used don't give a number they just say covered or not which made it pointless as I wanted to know if the levels had stayed the same or not). I asked my vets about getting the in house kits but they said they wouldn't as they have only been asked to titre test by 2 other people. If you want to titre id call around for a quote.

Parainfluenza and lepto are non core ones, core ones are recommended for all dogs and non core ones are recommend based on how likely your dog is to come in contact with it, there was some cases of lepto in the next town to me a year or two ago and as we live in the country so plenty of rats about so my girl will still be having lepto every year.

Whatever I decide to do in the future with inoculations either annually, bi-annually which the vet had been doing or trying tri-annually, the dog will definitely have the lepto and poss parvo. We live next to a small farm which has pigs so have our fair share of rats and its a risk I would rather the dog didnt have. Whenever I took the dogs for the boosters, the vet always said that he recommended parvo as he had seen cases recently. Never quite knew if he was just saying that or there really was parvo about.

For those that have insurance cover on their dogs and either inoculate on a three year cycle or not at all, how does your insurance company respond to that as most insurances seem to insist that the dogs are inoculated annually?

> how does your insurance company respond to that as most insurances seem to insist that the dogs are inoculated annually?

I don't think that it matters as long as you don't expect them to pay out if your dog suffers from the affects of NOT boostering - which shouldn't affect those who don't vaccinate anyway ;)

If you live in Europe/UK then your dogs should have the Lepto 4 vaccination if you want to use vaccinations to protect them from Lepto, all the others do not cover the servovars present in Europe/UK

Clearly then not Golden Retrievers, Cavaliers, Papillons, Malinois, crossbreeds with Goldens in, Border Collies, Cocker Spaniels and Labradors, as those are all the breeds I have had in my life.

Nor have my Cockers, Boxers, GSDs, Patterdales, Goldens, Springers, Cavs, Mongrels etc etc, yet one of mine did suffer from Parvo as a pup before Vaccination, so I never want to go through this again. Also I am of an age when I remember the many dogs that had an awful death with distemper and other diseases before vaccination was the norm.

This is the same with children's whooping cough and Measles, stop the vaccinations and these illnesses are coming back. I remember my best friend in an 'iron lung' with polio and another died with diphtheria, again all before the vaccines became the norm.
I think we will have the same with the dog diseases if the vaccinations are missed for any length of time - this is just my opinion though, so I really don't want to start a war on this forum...

I had an IS many years ago (about the early 70's) who didn't have any more innoculations after the puppy ones. When he was about seven months he started a nasty bout of sickness and diarrhea for a number of weeks. He virtually stopped eating and was given antibiotics by the vet. Nothing seemed to work. Each week the vet issued a different type of AB's, but the poor dog lost more and more weight and anything he did eat went straight through him. The vet finally tried the last AB he had in his arsenal saying, if this doesn't work then there's nothing more I can do. Thankfully they worked and he picked up, stuffed his face and eventually put on some weight again. Was it Parvo? No idea as I have had no experience of it and the infections progress. It has made me wary and there is a lot of me that says inoculate every year, but then I read something else which makes me wonder what do for the best.

Totally agree I would never say not vaccinate at all, but recent research is indicating that annual vaccination is unnecessary, as immunity last considerably longer and in some cases for life.
We don't have polio and diphtheria vaccinations every year it is given as a child, and then no more.

From recent studies dogs that have been given the puppy vaccinations and then a further one after a year have been found to have immunity for life.

I was given my polio vaccine as a child, so therefore I am immune to polio, you could give me a polio vaccine every year, but that would not make me any more immune to polio than I am now.
Boostering immunity is a myth, the dog is either immune or it is not and if it has received the full course of puppy injections it is likely to be immune for a minimum of 7 years and in most cases for life.
Titre testing is just a way of ensuring that the dog has immunity, as there are some dogs that the vaccinations for some reason do not take.
If you watch the Dr Shultz video which I posted a link to he answers all the questions, he has been testing dogs since the 1970's and has published many papers on the subject.
It really is well worth watching.

There is a table in this article from recent studies into length of immunity. I did have the studies from Dr Shultz but I can't find them at present.
My bookmarking system is not as good as it should be.

http://peterdobias.com/community/2012/10/study-on-duration-of-immunity-to-canine-vaccines/

There is a big difference between not vaccinating at all, and not boostering more than once or at all.

Can I ask if people will help the Pet Welfare Allowance by checking that their vet is listed.
Also if you could circulate to others it may help to encourage vets to adopt current protocols.

http://us6.campaign-archive.com/?u=34df2c0ee7439137f652bc34f&id=06f501bdd6&fb_action_ids=10201794930625050&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%2210201794930625050%22%3A151777648364126%7D&action_type_map=%7B%2210201794930625050%22%3A%22og.likes%22%7D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

Forgot to add it doesn't matter what protocols your vet currently follows PWA are going to write to them all.