I am fostering a young dog of a herding/ Guarding breed. He is very reactive to lots of things including people dogs, cyclists etc. He seems to be a fairly confident character and when he is close to people is happy for them to stroke him and handle him. however he will bark quite loudly at people when out and about. Especially if there is just one person in the distance.

All the reading i have done suggests that dogs that react like this are nervous or frightened of the thing they are barking at. But this lad doesn't seem frightened, Neither does he seem agressive. just noisy.

I am wondering what the actual motivation is in dogs of guarding breeds that causes them to bark at a stimulus? Are they bred to be nervous of strange things hence giving a warning or is there a separate guarding instinct that causes the dog to bark at things.

At the moment i am taking this lad out and about  to places where we can see people and rewarding him for calm behaviour when he sees them. he is very food and toy motivated. I am keeping him under threshhold and rewarding him for looking at people and then back at me. Does anyone have any other suggestions for helping this lad become less reactive?

Joggers and cyclists produce quite a loud reaction and a strong desire to chase so i am trying to see those at a greater distance at the moment.

Sounds 'normal' behaviour for all the guarding herding breed dogs I know.  Especially the lone distant stranger, and the one moving toward us quickly (cyclist, jogger, skate-boarder).

These types have been selectively bred to be hyper vigilant, so will alert to potential threats. 

In the case of herding dogs the hunting drive to surround and isolate prey has been used to create herders, and is strong.

Thanks. What I am trying to work out I suppose is that some protocols for reducing this type of  behaviour involve  taking the dog further away from what ever causes them to react as a reward. The removal of the thing they are scared off is used to reward quiet behaviour. If the barking is not motivated by fear then presumably moving further away from the stimulus will not be rewarding in the same way?

Not a behaviourist, but if it isn't fear, but guarding, as in if the triggger is further then the dog has been rewarded for doing it's (perceived) job so will do it all the more.

This is like the dogs that continue to bark and even get worse at the postman, because they have achieved their aim making him go away.

In these cases exposure and normalising to the preceived threat helps to reduce the behaviour.

It is likely that guard/watchdog breeds have a lower innate threshold to novelty than do breeds bred to be more 'social' (think Cavalier King Charles for ultra social, but also labrador, goldie). You could say that guardy breeds are a smidgen closer to the wolf in the sense that anything outside of the family group, until learned about, may be perceived as a danger.

I am guessing your young lad is probably heading towards into his teenage years. As with most young dogs, he is still learning about the environment and his innate instincts prompt him to alert you to anything he perceives as unusual- because he is young that is many,many, things. Remember, as dogs reach puberty, internal changes, like hormones, prompt them to see much of the world with new eyes and to discover things, like sex-related smells etc, they have not learned about before. They are literally all over the place -that is why the well-trained puppy or child can go awry as a teenager.

Your dog will be led by your reaction to some degree, stay calm and you can just say " oh, x or y is fine" in a jolly voice. Because your dog has a strong instinct to raise the alarm it'll take longer for him to learn not to react but if you just jolly him along he should learn what life is all about and how to differentiate truly novel/unusual occurrences from those that are normal/everyday.

My breed has a strong watchdog trait and mine would growl and bark at all sorts as a youngster. If your lad is an intact teen he may also go through a 'competitive' phase with other intact males, watchdog/guard breeds are usually more territorial too.

Guardy breeds may, though not necessarily, be more independent (think flock guardian) and so do not so readily look to their owners for guidance before they react, as might other breeds.

I hope this makes some sort of sense...your dog is not aggressive, he is probably doing what he was selectively bred to do and yo, over time, just need to help him to learn. Hope this helps.

If he is very guardy around the front door simply keep him away from it so he learns that you decide who comes in, not him. Alternatively teach him to do a job, but this can be hard if he is already in full guard mode before you've even heard the door bell. With my own dog I desensitised him to the doorbell noise, creating an association between the sound and reward, I also spent a couple of days taking my own mail and shoving it through my letterbox, with a small amount of treats- again the association is postmen = treats.

Your dog may also be a frustrated greeter/and/or reactive on lead. Check out Grisha Stewart's work on google, she's written a protocol called BAT. It's quite complicated but involves something called functional reward. In brief, this means if the dog's behaviour is driven by fear it is rewarded for appropriate, calm, behaviour with distance to the fear object; if the dog is a frustrated greeter it is rewarded for calm behaviour by proximity to the desired object/person/dog. Dogs my bark out of frustration as well as alarm. 

As somebody who has plenty of herding/guarding dogs, I can definitely say they can guard without being nervous. Take my Penny as an example -the half working line, half show line Malinois. She's pretty bomb proof. The only thing I have found recently that she was unsure of was when a foreign show judge felt she was too big so brought out a measure -and I'm not talking about the small fixed size slim metal ones, but a great big wooden one similar to what people or horses are measured with. She didn't want THAT above her. (She was however perfectly happy to have the male judge, a complete stranger, kneel down in front of her, take her head in his hands and stare her in the eyes, whilst wearing glasses, having a beard AND a flappy tie -now many dogs would have hated this and I felt it was like an exercise in how NOT to judge a dog to be honest. Got a photo of it! Oh AND she was handled by a 13 year old and was on a slack lead!)

Anyway, Penny loves people. As she has grown older (just turned one) she is less enthusiastic by strangers, she will say hello but she won't throw herself all over them. If however she has met somebody even just once before, she usually does throw herself at them going mad with happiness. She will happily allow anyone into the house when we are here. So many people have said "That dog doesn't know her own breed, she's too soft!" Well she is not. Leave her in the front garden (huge) without human company, and if anyone comes past she turns into a VERY scary dog indeed.  We had to raise the fence as she jumped it, and the postwoman told us she was so grateful as she was terrified of Penny.  In other words, she guards when she feels there is a need, usually when there are no familiar humans around. I have other dogs exactly the same, such as Rio. Loves everyone, but leave her behind a fence without any of us around and she guards very aggressively.

In my experience, when they guard at things like bikes nearby, other dogs, people in the distance etc, it often gets better with age, as they learn when there is a reason to guard and when there isn't one.  Although if somebody in the distance is standing STILL, they will guard until they recognise the person or until it is closer and moves. You can train by getting in with a reward BEFORE the dog has reacted. See something, quickly reward the dog when it has spotted it and not yet reacted. Do nothing when the dog reacts, or simply turn around and walk away.

Then of course anything like bikes, cars etc is VERY rewarding, because barking at them WORKS! The bike or whatever is approaching, dog barks, bike goes past and vanishes. Dog chased it away, success! Hence the next time they do it even more. I've never found a solution to that, as where we live we only get perhaps one car an hour going past, if that, and maybe a bike a month, so when it happens all the dogs will run along the fence and bark until it is gone.

It is likely that guard/watchdog breeds have a lower innate threshold to novelty than do breeds bred to be more 'social' (think Cavalier King Charles for ultra social, but also labrador, goldie).

Learned behaviour as well -my Cavalier barks just as aggressively at something on the other side of the fence as my Malinois and Papillons do. In fact he's one of the worst!

Absolutely. I think it was Brian Plummer that taught a pack of Cavs to hunt and kill rabbits.

> it often gets better with age

LOL :) Tara, just this morning, didn't bark at the dustmen - first time in 11 years :) :) She just lay there under the window, on her back - not a woof :) :) I don't think I will be placing any bets that the same will happen next week - but you never know :)

> I am fostering a young dog of a herding/ Guarding breed. He is very reactive to lots of things including people dogs, cyclists etc

You've had great help re. the guarding already.

When Buster was about 8 months old, he suddenly found chasing my children around the garden, whilst they were riding their bikes, a very fun game. The first time he started this, he actually grabbed one of my boys by the seat of his trousers and dragged him off the bike
It was all very much play (my boys not helping matters by yelling in delight!), but it was obviously not a wanted behaviour and I was very worried it could quickly develope into something more than just play (chasing and bringing down a person on a bike, is far too hunting-like for me!!!).

I started to desensitse him by STOPPING my boys playing on their bikes in the garden and instead, coming with me & Buster on every dog walk. To start with they rode their bikes very slowly next to us. As he got used to this, I had them pick up a bit of speed, but further away from us. We worked up (all within Busters limits and never getting to the point he got excited), to them whizzing around at full speed, cutting infront of us, zooming up from behind us, when Buster was solid with that, I got my boys friends to join us. We ended up walking with a group of 5 boys (age range from 9-15yrs) riding thier bikes like loons around us, even doing jumps & wheelies around us.
Buster was rewarded by food and occasionaly a bit of a game with me (a bit of rough-housing as he doesn't 'do' toys).
It was only a matter of weeks before ANYBODY on a bike was of NO interest to him.

Over the next few months, I'd get my boys to come with us on thier bikes every now & then, untill they gave up thier bikes for scooters. Fast forward to now (5+ years later) and Buster has retained his learned attitude to bikes. My youngest son just had a bike for his birthday, came with us on a dog walk, Buster was so un-interested he didn't even notice my son had zoomed towards us and screeched to a halt infront of us - Bust actually walked into the bike as he was more interested in sniffing!

I used walk times for 2 reasons, 1) there is much more space out in the countryside than my garden so if distance from the trigger is needed, you have it available and 2) there are lots of distractions out on a walk (sights/sounds/smells) that make the trigger a little less triggering than if it were in the boring garden.

The same thing can be used for joggers, you'll need some volunteers to come with you on walks to jog with you :) I've not set this up to work on with Buster, I just move him off the path, have him stand still and feed him bits of cheese for standing calmly whenever we happen accross joggers, but he's never been then reactive too them anyway.

It really is worth going to the effort of working hard on this one. I'm so pleased I did. We've had a stranger zoom around a corner on a bike, from behind us (on a pavement ) and Buster didn't even flinch :)

> Your dog may also be a frustrated greeter
> if the dog is a frustrated greeter it is rewarded for calm behaviour by proximity to the desired object/person/dog.

I have this issue with my two youngsters, 14 months and 2 years, (diminishing with the older one).  Problem is that of course when they bark and get wound up the other person with dog usually wants no part of greeting!!!

When I do say they are excited as they want to greet, the brave ones allow me to let them say hello (while I keep the others back so their dog is not overwhelmed), and they are both polite and friendly.  Of course i don't get this at shows where there are lots of dogs and more opportunities to greet.

Unfortunately much of the time the dog has to accept that it can't greet everyone.  I stop have dog facing me and say 'quiet' that's rude, (the latter for persons benefit), and wait until she/they are calm before walking on (the other dog has usually been walked on by then).  Over last week or so I am getting 'good' calmer behaviour much faster, and even avoiding the excited yelling, with just skipping and huffing while I repeat the commands of 'steady, 'quiet'.

Oh, that sounds familiar Brainless - people just do not seem to understand the 'come here and talk to me' bark and seem to think it is aggression but other dogs seem to understand, had my 10 year old at the vets yesterday and had to stand outside because of his excited barking and frantic front foot waving - most the people avoided him but the dogs were more than happy to greet him, ducking to avoid the flying front feet.

Yes, did tell him quite but a trip to the vet was just such a thrill that I could not get through to him without making more noise than he was.

Barbara,
I know, it is a hard one to deal with- but there is still some reward for them by not having to move away from the dog they are interested in if they are clam- this way they at least get a long distance sniff, which satisfies a bit of curiosity and can be bolstered by your verbal reward or even a treat.

Nova,
Yes, we all know the "I wnat to go and see that dog" frusrtration bark" or, in the case of some very 'manly' dogs, the lager lout "oi you gorgeous, yes, I'm taking to you, come over 'ere so I can sniff you"...shades of Keith Lemon, methinks :O

> Your dog may also be a frustrated greeter/and/or reactive on lead. Check out Grisha Stewart's work on google, she's written a protocol called BAT. It's quite complicated but involves something called functional reward.

Yes I had been looking at that and that was why i was questioning the motivation behind his reactivity. presumably If he is not scared of the thing then moving away from it wont be rewarding?

> If he is very guardy around the front door simply keep him away from it so he learns that you decide who comes in, not him.

I do keep all my dogs away from the door but he is barking at all visitors even when I have let them in. the other dogs are quite happy as they know the visitors but he is still barking. I am having him  on a lead and rewarding with food calm behaviour and not barking and he does settle untill the move about. i usually end up with him shut in another room. He is starting to get used to people who visit regularly.

> I am guessing your young lad is probably heading towards into his teenage years.

He is thought to be about 6 months old. Possibly a cross between a GSD and Belgian shepherd.

It can be similar at shows, when first arriving there is usually a flurry of excited pleased to see each other barking.

Not enjoyed by all other exhibitors, of course, especially those with the generally quieter sight hounds, but these days it's rare to have the dogs constantly barking on benches, as we had a reputation for, seems to happen with some other breeds far more, often the smaller ones.

> can be bolstered by your verbal reward or even a treat.
>
>

Yes, this is where we are winning with me praising the quiet, as the praise is getting through once they are calm, or if I pre-empt and get in before the excitement level is too great.

Newyork, does your dog calm down if he is ignored? My friends Musnsterlander does something similar, barking like a lunatic when visitors call and not in a friendly way. She finds, along with a food reward with clicker, that if everyone totally ignores him, not even looking at him he will calm down and become settled and friendly

>As somebody who has plenty of herding/guarding dogs, I can definitely say they can guard without being nervous.

this lad is possibly 1/2 Malinois so that is very useful information.

> Then of course anything like bikes, cars etc is VERY rewarding, because barking at them WORKS! The bike or whatever is approaching, dog barks, bike goes past and vanishes.

I think it is not so much the vanishing but the speed at which the bikes move. he is VERY interested in things that move fast. He sort of fixates on them and cannot be distracted. Cars, bikes or a dog running in the distance.

He is thought to be about 6 months old. Possibly a cross between a GSD and Belgian shepherd.

Thought he sounded Mali like. LOADS of GSD x Malinois about so very likely -and in that case you can almost guarantee it would be WORKING Mali x GSD so extra hard work. 6 months is worst possible age -I always say I wish they were born aged 2 years.

I think that may be altogether different and may be prey drive. This is handled by a completely different part of the brain and is unrelated to all other forms of aggression which are, broadly, fear/defence/territorial/resource guarding/sexually motivated. Prey drive is in all dogs to a greater or lesser degree- you can't really switch it off, but you can channel it into acceptable outlets like chasing and retrieving (ideally not killing and swallowing) a ball, or ragga/tuggy. Alongside this you simply stop and distract him from potential prey items like other fast moving objects, the more he does it the more he'll want to do it, so I'm afraid it's vigilance, monitoring and a long line, plus practice your recall.

A frustrated greeter might appear to show aggressive lunging behaviour. Fearful dogs react in three modes, they either try to escape and avoid (flee); freeze; or they go on the offence. Different dogs tend to have a main modus operandi, they either back off or freeze, or go on the offensive if they perceive threat. Generally guard breeds, as discussed, are more attuned to perceive all novelty as a potential threat and go on the offensive, they also look confident doing it, since a scared looking aggressor is already showing weakness and that is not adaptive. Nonetheless, if you carefully examine your dog's body language there may be some clues as to what is going on (see Turid Rugaas).

Wanted to add that different breed and individuals within those breeds have different hormonal biases, so the trigger happy/guardy dog may be subtley different in its chemistry from the laid back dog- common sense really. It is thought that 'more aggressive dogs have lower levels of dopamine and serotonin than do sweeter natured dogs; similarly, tame silver foxes (domesticated) have higher levels of those hormones than do their wild counterparts. Some suggest that dogs selectively bred to guard are closer to the wild model in some respects, than the more 'friendly breeds'- though obviously still miles away from being like a wolf.

All the reading i have done suggests that dogs that react like this are nervous or frightened of the thing they are barking at.

It would be helpful if you identified a) the breed b) if the dog is from >working lines< or just plain KC show lines!

There are vast quantities of dogs in UK which at one time were bred for some kind of work or other, but, once the show people got them and then bred any working capability out of them the work capability became extinct in practice. I would not like to think my safety depended on a traditional UK bred Dobermann, as one of several example breeds.

So, can you elaborate on the 2 points I asked.
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