Given this site has a breeders focus, I hope this is not regarded as "bad taste". I want to buy a puppy - we went to a rescue rehome place at the weekend and my partner fell in love with a puppy (we have specific ideas of what breed we want). He wants to rehome a rescue puppy because its "the right thing to do" wheeras Im slightly concerned about the practical aspects (lack of medical background, hip score,  pedegree - though thats more an issue of knowing what one gets that a pedegree per se). I feel mean taking this "cold and logical view" when we could give a good home - or am i actually being sensible. We expect the puppy to be released for adoption over the next few days so need to make a decision. 

It's very easy to fall in love with a cute little puppy isn't it.
I'm of the view that I like to know what I am getting and have always bought a pup from a breeder. I have been guilty in the past of rushing into a purchase and not looking at other litters available. It's so much easier with the Internet to find out about pups in your chosen breed and with my latest pup, I spent a long time checking pedigrees and hip scores etc. That will not guarantee that your dog will remain healthy for the rest of its life, but gives it a fighting chance. These days there are so many BYB's who are not checking their dogs health, dumping excess pups at rescues that you could end up with a dog spending most of its time at the vets. On the other hand there are lots of rescue dogs who live long and healthy lives. My main consideration is temperament and that's something that will always be difficult to judge when you don't get to see the parents of the puppy.

I've bred dogs for 30 years, keeping up to 8 at any one time.  In that time I've been very involved with researching pedigrees, particularly concerned with health, temperament and conformation, and because of that, I have spent minimum time, money and worry at the Vets!

Whilst I think it's admirable for those with skill and knowledge to take on rescue dogs, it's not something that I would be willing to do - I want to hopefully know what to expect when I take a new dog into my home.

I do spend some time at my local rescue kennel and am frequently horrified by people taking home problem dogs with no idea what they've got and how to sort them out.  The dogs are regularly returned when things don't work out as the new family had imagined, sad and sometimes traumatic for both family and dog.

I agree with Westcoast. 

I would never BUY a puppy or dog without full health testing etc history.

I admire those who are willing to take a big chance on what they may end up with and what health and temperament issues may emerge.

With adult dogs u have more idea of what yoru getting, but again I feel most second hand dogs are often suitable only for commited expereinced dog owners, as your not starting with a blank canvas.

On a different tack I don't ever belive it is right to buy from poor breeders (to rescue from teh bad si8tuation), as this only encourages them to continue in the same vein with little or no standards or care for the dogs they breed or the new owners.

I have had rescue dogs for years now, although I go for one particular breed and usually re-home via breed rescue. BUT all of them come with problems, either health or behaviour problems, you can never know exactly what has happened to them in their previous life. They take loads of patience and understanding, and I have to be willing to accept habits that I would have trained against in a puppy. With the ones with health problems I spend a small fortune on vet bills, but on the plus side I find it so rewarding after a few months to see how these dogs respond to tlc. and I feel that taking on rescues is the right thing to do - for me.
Taking on a rescue puppy is possibly easier than the adults that I have, but it is a bit of a gamble, you will not know how the pup has been previously treated or any other history so if you are not willing to take the risk please don't do it. Most older dogs are put into rescue for a reason, but I don't know too much about rescue pups, but a mistake on your part now with this pup could result in an older dog back in rescue at a later date.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I don't know if you have kids or are likely to have some in your house? Temperament is another concern of mine with rescue, as in generic rescue. Breed rescue you can often have more info if not full info on the history of the dogs.
If its a puppy personally I'd really want to know the parents, or at the very least the mother. Is this pup a pure breed or a cross? If the latter I'd avoid if a pup, you have no idea on what's on the horizon, adult at least you know what you have in front of you to some degree...

So many things to ask yourselves, really you have to ask what's the most important? For me health and temperament are and as such I'd want to know the parents and thei health test results to make an informed decision.
If an adult then its easier for a rehome..

I don't think either way is wrong, it's going through the Pro's and con's of it all... Maybe a list will point you in the best direction

just to add this puppy and like many other dogs in rescue are from bad breeders and the rescue (middle man) are just picking up the pieces. the dogs are the innocent party therefore it doesnt really matter, but just bare this in mind. I will never say never but i am unlikley before my 40's after kids have gone, get a rescue. and it would have to be a pup to get on with my own dogs, but like i have been turned down before for having an un-neutered bitch in the house, so maybe not. I see myself with failed fosters from breed rescue maybe?

He wants to rehome a rescue puppy because its "the right thing to do"

What right thing does he mean? :-D

Every responsible breeder who health tests also has puppies which need good lifelong homes.

The difference is as already said, you are getting a puppy from a rescue and a breeder who either didn't want them or had them seized due to cruelty, accidental mating a re-home or other un-savoury reason, a pup now with no pedigree or health screening from a dubious background needs a home, no doubt it will be snapped up, these pups generally are, so you don't need to do the kind thing.

When it comes to choosing a pup and one that will hopefully live for up to 15 years, take your time and choose right, it's a long time or sometimes short (unfortunately) to live with a mistake.

> a puppy (we have specific ideas of what breed we want)

What breed/s are you looking at?  There are some crosses that come from breeds with few inherent problems, others which you'd be wise not to touch with a bargepole...  Knowing the health issues of your chosen breed will help in your decision making.

> no doubt it will be snapped up, these pups generally are, so you don't need to do the kind thing

Hmm - that's a bit of a NIMBY thing isn't it ?? :) Someone else will sort the problem :) Unless you say that all rescue dogs should be PTS, then all responsible dog owners AND breeders should help with the problem of dogs in rescue surely ? Perhaps the OP is right in wanting to do the right thing. I would have no problem having another rescue dog - warts and all - someone has to .............

Not necessarily someone else will sort the problem, but someone who doesn't think about health tests, lineage and taking on the unknown will no doubt snap up the pup as they do, pups go quickly in rescues as opposed to the adult dogs.

When you have someone coming on the board who is actually thinking about things i.e quality, health tests and having a supportive breeder at their side, we would be very unprofessional to say "No go for the one you know nothing about" who wishes to perhaps encourage someone to support a puppy farmer or careless BYB when there are good quality breeders out there doing their best to breed quality pups which are also on the ground awaiting good homes.

I don't think anyone should feel guilty about that, quite the opposite.

> I don't think anyone should feel guilty about that, quite the opposite

But some of the people here that profess to be very experienced dog owners are just the right sort of people to give a rescue dog a good home - with the right training, feeding etc :) :) Or are we happy to let the less knowledgeable/experienced people try their luck with a rescue ?? It's all very well saying that 'we' are unprofessional in telling someone to go for an unknown rescue - that would be fine if it was being balanced. Who is going to take on these dogs ???? Obviously not a lot of the 'responsible' breeders here :)

Sorry Daisy I don't agree........  I want a dog from a good breeder which I will train and know of it's parents/grandparents and health lineage. I will always choose to have a dog from a good breeder so that I know what it will look like and grow up to be, and no I don't feel that is wrong.... or guilty about it, after all, I have to live with the dog until it dies and care for it. :-)

I'm not saying there are not lovely dogs in rescue too, or wish to put people off getting a rescue dog, I too know people with rescues,  but, and a big but, it is absolutely not a problem for good breeders or experienced dog owners to try and sort out, we don't cause the problem or need to mop it up, that is not selfish it is simply not our doing or problem, I've never heard of that argument before: Or are we happy to let the less knowledgeable/experienced people try their luck with a rescue ??

It's certainly not an argument that sits well with me, Who is going to take on these dogs ??? No idea, but they won't be pushed onto me, sorry!

I think we all choose to take on / not take on rescue dogs for our own reasons having taken into account exactly what we are looking for in a dog, personal circumstances etc. The main reason to not take a rescue is pity, but probably the best person to talk to about it would be the home-checker from the animal charity. As I said in a previous post, it is a gamble taking on any animal that you know very little about, and the fact that you are asking for advice probably means that deep down you are unsure if it is the right decision for you so take some more time and think about it some more, any pet is a huge commitment whether a rescue or a pup from a brilliant breeder so you need to be sure.

> Who is going to take on these dogs ??? No idea, but they won't be pushed onto me, sorry

That's disappointing :(

Obviously not a lot of the 'responsible' breeders here :-)

I am responsible for my own little part of the world - not for the rest of it - I can't be!

I am old enough to remember when the RSPCA were just about the only rescue kennels, before they took on their political persona! :)  If the kennels were full then the only option was to take your dog to the Vet to be pts.  That's not an easy thing to do.

Also dog breeding of pedigree dogs was left to breeders who knew what they were doing rather than anyone with a bitch thinking that they should produce puppies as it is now.  If they sell to unsuitable homes then it's too easy to dump them on the local rescue kennel. :(

I do my best to help my local rescue kennel but seeing some dogs distressed in there for years and others being homed and coming back because they're 'difficult' I'm not sure that this new way of numerous if bulging rescue kennels is an improvement from the way things used to be done! :(

That's disappointing

:-)  Stop it! You're trying that guilt thing again.

I've looked after enough of my friends dogs, my own pups who I often have at the holidays etc and try to help out people with training issues, but I'm glad when many of them go home, there is nothing for me that beats a dog I have trained with no issues health or personality wise, it's like with children you love your own but other people's can be a pain even when you love children and you wouldn't want them living with you.

Guess that is what it comes down to not so much ruling out a rescue, but the list of things I want, rules in a dog from a good breeder.

Now.... stop trying the guilt thing. :-)

> Now.... stop trying the guilt thing. :-)

Nothing to do with guilt :) Just disappointing that 'responsible' people in the dog world are washing their hands of the rescue problem. Other 'responsible' people will just have to continue to try to sort the problem out. Of course, none of the dogs in rescue are the product of 'responsible' breeding or their descendants .....

The problem Daisy is not the responsible breeders who give lifetime support for their puppies, but the irresponsible BYBs who are producing puppies and not finding the best homes for them and the more irresponsible people buy without sufficient thought and who are then taking them to rescue kennels.

All the time we make it easy for dogs to be accepted in rescue kennels then the irresponsible puppy producers will keep producing them. :(

Of course, none of the dogs in rescue are the product of 'responsible' breeding or their descendants .....

:-D I should hope not, after all we responsible breeders will always have our pups/adults back and look after our own problems not adding to the rescues anguish of over-crowding caused by over-breeding from people who don't care what they are producing, and who their pups go to, which is why a good breeder is worth their salt and a very good place to get a pup from.

People who are not aware of what to look for in a quality breeder due to just wanting the cheapest option or not doing their homework are definitely better off getting a pup/dog from a rescue rather than another irresponsible breeder, the gamble of unpredictable personality, genetic traits & health is exactly the same and maybe it will stop some from breeding (but alas not so, as people feel sorry for their pups and the circle continues)

Can't see an end to it Daisy. :-(  And as I've said in not causing the problem it isn't fair to think we should solve it.

> Hmm - that's a bit of a NIMBY thing isn't it ?? :-) Someone else will sort the problem :-) Unless you say that all rescue dogs should be PTS, then all responsible dog owners AND breeders should help with the problem of dogs in rescue surely ?

No. Responsible owners and breeders do not cause the rescue problem, and if people would not support bad breeders the problem would only come from poor owners (only the ones who managed to get through good breeder vetting) or real cases of exceptional change in circumstances, where the breeder is unable to help.

Why is it that we have such a huge rescue problem in English speaking countries yet very little rescue issue in Scandinavian countries?  This despite low neutering levels.

It is because people buy from the right source in the first place, and there is no market for the produce of the kind of breeder that sells to anyone willing to buy, (some of who often dump the dog when no longer cute or convenient), and washes their hands of their responsibilities.

Rescue inadvertently helps the irresponsible breeders and throw away owners.

I support my own breed rescue financially and when needed by fostering.  We are a numerically small breed where breeders who KC reg and belong to the breed clubs do take responsibility for their own, but sadly we get a steady stream from BYB (often from Northern and Southern Ireland originally) who sell to unsuitable owners and these poor dogs invariably come into rescue, often several litter-mates over time.

Rescue inadvertently helps the irresponsible breeders and throw away owners.

Exactly so. :(

> Rescue inadvertently helps the irresponsible breeders and throw away owners

So all unwanted dogs should be PTS ? (serious question) (This still leaves, of course, the problem of irresponsible breeding)

You would recommend then, that I don't support any rescues and don't take on another rescue dog ?? What about breed rescues ??

> So all unwanted dogs should be PTS ? (serious question) (This still leaves, of course, the problem of irresponsible breeding)

All those that are temperamentally unsound, or with health issues,  yes.

The rest should be tracked back to the original breeder and owners to take responsibility of contributing to cost of re-homing, or PTS. 

That would put paid to a lot of the bad breeders and bad owners when they had to take the responsibility for killing the dogs they produced/abandoned, and had a financial responsibility..

Perhaps?  We can't seem to stop people buying from BYBs so maybe it's time to take a different tack. If it wasn't so easy to get rid of ex-breeding bitches and ill thought out puppy purchases, then maybe, just maybe.......

It's easier and more palatable to 'donate' a dog to rescue than to pay and face a Vet to have it pts.  So as an alternative, maybe rescue centres should charge the 'donor' £140 for taking their dog rather than the new home for rescuing them?

As though we don't have enough of a problem here already, we've also got do-gooders bring unwanted dogs in from Ireland and Cyprus too!

> The rest should be tracked back to the original breeder and owners

Compulsory microchipping would help here. A lot of the dogs in rescue are strays.

What about all these dogs brought in from Ireland etc ?? :( We really need some legislation to stop this.

> So as an alternative, maybe rescue centres should charge the 'donor' £140 for taking their dog rather than the new home for rescuing them?

People will just abandon them :(

> So as an alternative, maybe rescue centres should charge the 'donor' £140 for taking their dog rather than the new home for rescuing them?
>
>

I have always said this that people should be charged for a rescue taking the dog, but there would have to be enforcement of the law re abandoning an animal with a fine.  This should be quite possible with chipping becoming compulsory and would also ensure people kept the database updated if they homed a dog on.

I am hoping that compulsory microchipping will help to stem the flow of BYB dogs, which are the majority now, but not holding my breath.

As for dogs coming from Ireland, you don't always know if they've come from there if the rescue or dog's home doesn't tell you.

Compulsory microchipping will not solve anything especially when you can buy a Microchip & implant your dog yourself from e bay-not legal in the UK but how would anyone know ?

Easy to register false details for the microchip of course

As for dogs from Ireland-black dogs & collies are treated as trash in Ireland & there are perfectly respectable registered charities that rehome dogs in the UK(& elsewhere in the world) from Ireland

Compulsory microchipping will not solve anything especially when you can buy a Microchip & implant your dog yourself from e bay-not legal in the UK but how would anyone know ?

Well I would have assumed that when the microchipping law comes into force, it won't JUST ask for all dogs to be microchipped, but for the chip to be registered as well. And anyone buying a chip on Ebay, who is not a registered implanter, won't be able to register it here of course. And should the dog ever be scanned, even if the vet or whoever that scans it does not check it is registered with Pet Log or any other UK registry, it will be immediately obvious from the number that it is not a UK chip, and that should prompt them to check further.

But I agree that microchipping won't solve anything, as there is no way every dog can be scanned and all details checked to ensure they are up to date.

And anyone buying a chip on Ebay, who is not a registered implanter, won't be able to register it here of course. And should the dog ever be scanned, even if the vet or whoever that scans it does not check it is registered with Pet Log or any other UK registry, it will be immediately obvious from the number that it is not a UK chip, and that should prompt them to check further.

The chips on e bay come with free registration on an irish data base & I can see the false details being imput so that the dog appears to have come from Ireland. I doubt that the Act will include all chips of imported dogs being registered with one of the UK databases

"On 6 February 2012 the Government announced that they will be introducing legislation to make microchipping of all dogs compulsory in England from 6 April 2016.

From that date owners will need to:

Have their dog microchipped and registered on one of the authorised commercial databases available;
Register the details of any new owner before they sell or give the dog away;
Keep their contact details up-to-date on the microchip databases."

Have their dog microchipped and registered on one of the authorised commercial databases available;

I VERY much doubt the final wording won't include that the database has to be in the UK rather than Outer Mongolia. :) (And it already mentions AUTHORISED databases -cannot see the UK authorising ones abroad as it would be impossible.)

Meanwhile..... Back on the original topic!
;-)

Richard,
Hi!
Can I ask if you have looked at any other potential puppies since your decision to 'buy a puppy' or was the Rescue centre pup the first one you've seen? Do you have breeders whose dogs you like in mind and have visited them or met them (at shows or working) ~ If the answer is no, then I would advise that you do not consider this pup until you both have come to a more working agreement. You seem to both be in two very different camps and as this dog will be with you and dependant on you for many years to come you're right to have your sensible head on (detached of emotion)
      Have you found out the rescue centre's adoption policy with regard to what support you will receive? (Something an ethical breeder will provide for the life of the dog) have you asked them if they provide assistance monetary or other should the dog develop serious medical conditions?
       You and your partner should sit down together and hash out all the pros and cons and agree that you can only go forward if both of you are in complete agreement and that is something no one on an Internet forum can do for you!
     I have rescue dogs, my preference is for a well bred dog from an ethical breeder no one can argue with the logic of knowing exactly what you're purchasing. My Rescue dogs have been the best I've owned as yet ( 9 years now) no vets bills other than one minor urine infection and a ripped dew claw both costing under £40.
     I have many friends (many of whom are members and posted here) who have ethically bred dogs and huge vets bills, many of whom have ethically bred dogs and no vets bills!
      The overriding answer I feel for you guys is take your time, do your research and don't rush into it!!

Very best of luck ~ do keep us posted wont you x

Please get a rescue. It is the right thing to do.

> It is the right thing to do

But why is it right?

Why buying a carefully well bred puppy from careful breeders, is not?

Because someone else no longer wants the dog.

Do you advocate that buying second hand clothing is the right thing to do and not buy new?

It's the pull on the heart strings that the irresponsible owners and breeders rely on, so others pick up the pieces, when it is their responsibility.

I respect the breeders of the carefully well bred puppy, but I think we all have a moral obligation to the huge number of unwanted dogs that exist. Firstly, to give them homes, so that they are not killed. We cannot allow them to be treated as some sort of waste product, just because the humans who brought them into this world are despicable. We must also campaign for enforceable changes in the law so that those despicable people are no longer able to breed on a whim or for profit.

> As for dogs from Ireland-black dogs & collies are treated as trash in Ireland & there are perfectly respectable registered charities that rehome dogs in the UK(& elsewhere in the world) from Ireland

My Irish dog is neither black nor a collie, and we had no idea of her origins until a letter was received from an Irish chip registry about transferring the details of her microchip, which had clearly been inserted just prior to her journey to the UK. Neither the Dog's Home nor the websites where she was listed mentioned anything about her coming from Ireland.

I want to thank everyone for the time and effort made to help us. I hope that I have not provoked too much of a heated discussion, but the comments have all been VERY helpful. Given that this was the first foray into looking at pups we have decided to pass on this chance (with a tearful goodbye), and much more time will be spent. The specific breed is prone to hip problems and whilst the mother is with the pups in rescue (not a breed rescue) there is no certainty about the father. It is believed that it was an accidental mating rather than BYB.
Anyway this specific chance will be passed but only to allow more research on which is the right path. Once again. Many thanks everyone!

Not quite sure what my post has to do with your dog, there are good charities in Eire that are very open abut their dogs & do a damn good job with rehoming.

Was your dog definitely from Eire or was it perhaps chipped with one of the microchips from E bay ?

My Irish boy is a real credit to the rescue he comes from & do a wonderful job rehoming dogs in Eire, Uk & all over Europe too

> Not quite sure what my post has to do with your dog, there are good charities in Eire that are very open abut their dogs & do a damn good job with rehoming.

Only in the context of my earlier post, that dogs are being brought over and various rescue places are not telling people they have come from there. I have no real issue with it, and my dog is as loved to bits regardless, but some people who might have an ethical opposition to it (and there are many who don't agree with rescue dogs being brought in from other countries) aren't being told the truth, which bothers me a little. It's not full disclosure.

> Was your dog definitely from Eire or was it perhaps chipped with one of the microchips from E bay ?

I think the Irish Kennel Club database is about as genuine as you can get :) and it was a new chip, unregistered to anyone.

Richard,
Good luck in your quest and I wish you all the best in finding the right decision for your home.

As for the rest who are bickering, why? No one persons opinion is right or wrong and there is no right or wrong thing to do here other than what suits the individual. We are all different people in different homes with different lives, nothing wrong with taking a rescue on as is neither getting a puppy from a responsible breeder..

Best of luck Richard! Do let us know what you both decide xx

Well said Sue!
(Agree with you Sue and can't believe members are still continuing their own debate and rudely ignoring the OP its no wonder new members rarely thank!)

Replying to no one in particular.

In my mind the trouble with rescues is that they exist and they exist for so many reasons many of which have been mentioned.
It goes against the grain for many people to see an animal suffer and not offer help in some way shape or form.

In an ideal world they wouldn't exist and everybody would buy well bred puppies from good breeders but sadly that is eutopia.

So in the meantime there are dogs and pups that for whatever reason find themselves in these places, because of that there will be people that wish to take on a rescue dog and I commend them, I just hope that they make an informed decision based on as much info about the rescue dog as is available.

I have a 15yr old rescue myself that I took on at 6 months along with dogs from good breeders.

Taking on a rescue can be very rewarding but it can also be fraught with problems.

To the original poster I would say that both of you have to agree on which path you want to follow whether it be rescue or well bred pup because if you don't agree at the beginning of dog ownership you will have problems in the future of dog ownership.

> As for the rest who are bickering, why?

I don't believe anyone else is bickering, this is a very important issue.

Many of us as breeders feel quite victimised by those in rescue who tar all breeders with the same brush and often state the opinion that everyone should rescue and not buy or breed.

Taken to it's logical conclusion this view would mean extinction, or that the only dogs bred are those bred and owned irresponsibly, and that everyone should have such a dog.

Surely the aim should be that dogs are only bred carefuly, by responsible breeders, sold to suitable homes, and very few would ever end in rescue, with just the occasional dog responsibly re-homed due to change of circumstances, by a responsible owner and breeder.

Also even if all this happened in the UK, rescues importing dogs from overseas would still say no to responsible breeding, as there will always be unwanted dogs somewhere.

This same logic could be used with the human race.  We in the West should stop having children, and adopt the excess and orphaned children from countries where they cannot be fed, and many die in infancy????  Or perhaps IVF should be banned and more babies born that would have been terminated to fill the gap for the childless.

I have had a fair few rescues -indeed my first ever dog was a rescue. I've had more from breeders. In my case, the rescue dogs have had far, far more problems, in particular with health (my first was just 4 when he died), but they have been just as rewarding to own. If I am able to, I'd happily take a rescue dog, but upon doing so, it's understood that it is a totally unknown quantity; may be healthy, may not, may have a long life, may have a short life. May have a great temperament, may not. There is no way of knowing. But if I take in a rescue, it is to help the dog. Our last rescue was a lovely Labrador bitch. She was guessed as being about 3 years old when we got her. She died after just 2 years, with huge vet's bills, but it was 2 rewarding years with a dog of absolutely fantastic temperament. I don't regret giving her a home. I guess what I am trying to say is I would not have any expectations of a rescue, it would be whatever it turned out to be and that is fine, but I would have big expectations of a wellbred dog from a good breeder.

> The specific breed is prone to hip problems and whilst the mother is with the pups in rescue (not a breed rescue) there is no certainty about the father. It is believed that it was an accidental mating rather than BYB.

Hi Richard - I think if you are looking at a breed with known hip issues then it pays to go to a breeder who scores their dogs (and has done so for several generations).  Of course health testing the parents doesn't guarantee a problem free dog, and not all rescue's will develop health issues BUT hips are such an easy thing to test for that it seems daft to disregard this information in a popular breed.

Only you can really answer the question about whether a rescue, any rescue, is right for you and your partner but time spent researching is never wasted (even if it does muddy the waters a bit!!).  Good luck with your decision making :)

OP has thanked people for their input and so this thread is now going off topic, closing it