OK folks lets have your ideas on how we can invigorate the present show scene - here are mine :

* CC's for all Ch shows and grading for all dogs entered . If no dogs are graded excellent then no CC to be awarded.

* Benching to be optional and booked in advance, space for trolleys and crates near the ring.

* Champion classes eligible for BOB but not for CC's  and introduce a Grand Champion title for those winning 10 Champion classes.

* An end to the 'fast tracking' of some all rounders at the expense of breed specialists.

* Encourage a wider classification of breeds at Open show level by removing all restrictions

* Open shows to only use judges on breed judging lists to give aspiring breed specialists the chance to progress .

* Special Champion , Neuter and Baby Puppy classes at Open shows

* Grading at Open shows with all BOB's graded excellent to qualify for Crufts and finally ....

* Allow exhibitors to buy their breed entry catalogue pages only instead of the whole bloomin thing !

what would be on your wish list ?

Yvonne

* Benching either to be compulsory and enforced or, if people want to use crates instead, to have a separate area for them well away from the ringside, and ensure that they're neatly placed in rows with enough space in beween them to be able to evacuate in an emergency.

* No champion classes; where's the merit in a title that's awarded without ever having competed against the best?

* More CCs available to breeds with a large entry than those with a small entry, to prevent a title being too easily gained.

* Prize money, to encourage entries.

* Breed pages rather than whole catalogue!

I really like the idea of grading, and in fact most of your suggestions but definitely NOT the champion class. In my opinion it leads to 'cheap' champions if they no longer compete for CCs, in some breeds it's then only a matter of time before you make anything and everything up as competition is knocked out.

I quite like the idea of a "Grand Champion" I also do not mind having a Champions class but feel the winner should have the ability to challenge for the CC. It would not demean the title but would give others a chance to at least compete in the line up. Many a good dog has stood behind the champion in a class but then if that winner does not perform well in the line up the equally good second place dog has no chance to compete. Grading would be fantastic.
Not sure if that makes sense now !!!
Aileen

Reduced entry fro second and subsequent dogs to encourage more entries,  also a reduction for Veterans, and veteran classes and Best Veteran In Group/Show.  This would encourage people to keep showing if they are like the increasing number with just a couple of dogs who drop away once their dogs are veterans.

Benching to be close to rings as show ground allows, if open site then ideally as they do at Southern counties benching tents centre, rings adjacent to benching and trade stands making the perimeter.

If people want to crate , thereby giving up benefits provided by benches, then strictly no crates ringside.  Sick to death of not being able to get to our ring because another breed (we are often with Toy or terriers) have bagged all shady areas around ring, or sometimes the only available ring space.

On entering exhibitor pays for crate space by the square metre (spaces marked out and numbered) or benching.

Second entries in breed classes to be much cheaper, so as to encourage repeat entries. 

Stakes classes not to count as beaten dogs but as separate competitions from the main show.  the high second entry price and the being beaten are reducing support, especially in champion stakes, especially as clashes with bred judging likely make one not want to waste an extra £5.

Cheap champions can happen under our present system too ........judges simply need to have the guts to withhold the CC if the quality is not there !.

Not for Malinois with the CCs Yvonne -you know how poor the Malinois entries are as it is, if we had tickets at all shows we'd get lots of shows with no entries at all and each ticket show would have just one or two....... We need LESS CCs, not more. People now only travel to their nearest show as they know there will always be another. Saving on petrol costs. 12 shows this year and the poorest entries we have ever had since we got tickets, even a breed championship show just getting 18 entries and SKC and Bath with 3 each, all ticket shows. Thankfully next year we will be down to 10 shows. So my suggestion would be ask the BREED CLUBS which shows would be most suitable for tickets to get a good entry, as some don't stand a chance and some that don't have them could drum up a good entry.

Definitely like grading it would be helpful in both numerically strong breeds where even good dogs can't get a place, and in numerically small breeds like my own with often small class entries to put the placing in context.

I quite like the idea of a "Grand Champion"

I don't. We'd get the cat situation which is plain ridiculous where having a Champion is just the first step on a very long ladder and therefore is not worth much at all. For years we had Champions with the next step being Grand Champion, 3 certificates needed for each. Then at the Supreme show an extra title of UK Grand Champion, where you needed two certificates to gain the title -which then would take 2 years as like Crufts it is just once a year. Then they added the Imperial title, which needs 5 certificates. The UK title was then moved beyond the Imperial.  Then they added the Olympian which I have never even bothered to look into properly, there you compete against all breeds, not just your own, and there are three levels -Bronze, Silver and Gold. So to get the best titles you can you need dozens of certificates and you never finish. And of course then there is the Supreme, where the BIS adult and neuter will gain a Supreme title. And because some people get the high titles the lower titles really have become worthless. A mere Champion, so what, anyone can be a Champion -especially since they banned cats already Champions from entering the same class as cats without titles. And the reason for why new titles kept being added was that people stopped showing once they had gained the top title. But after each new one the problem was still there. You can now aim for a Supreme Olympian UK Imperial Grand Champion - SIX titles. Plus of course when you neuter the cat you can start all over again, with the neuter titles. So no, I strongly feel there should be nothing better than a Champion.

Make the shows more interesting and have "side attractions".  Such as in my group gundogs, have say scurries or something to show what the breeds can do.  I know that this couldn't really happen at many open shows but the champ shows, especially the outdoor ones have the option to be able to do this......

Not keen on having champion classes, nor really being graded.  We usually have a lot more dogs at our champ shows than other countries and it could take ages to finish classes.  I've been in Spain where they've been doing the BIS at 11.00 pm!

far better than a champions class and excluding champions from competing for CCs, far better to make 3 reserve CCs, under three different judges, count as a single CC. You would still need at least one outright CC to be able to claim the title though.

I don't see the problem with Champions in the open class.  They are just dogs that eventually will be beaten. Last weekend the breed record holder in my breed was beaten to the ticket by a 13 month old dog. As it stands now the Champion title really does mean something.

Exactly; the last thing we want is to devalue the title by making it easier to get, and removing a whole section of the entry from the competition does exactly that.

Marianne , have entries at cat shows declined as much as those in the dog scene ?

At Bath Malinois had the hated single CC on offer which some kennels boycotted thus affecting the entry ...and SKC always has tiny entries because of travel costs, this will not change whether all shows or just a handful have tickets !.

We must encourage people to enter ...at the moment we have a self defeating circle of fewer entries leading to a loss of CC's which in turn leads to fewer entries ...the logical end of this will be CH shows ending up like Boston with a very few breeds eligible for CC's.

Quality is not dependent on quantity, you could have an entry of 60 Malinois none of whom are of Champion quality ...or just 3 all of whom are !  .....we all know of numerically small breeds where the average entry can be   in the low teens  yet who consistently win Groups and BIS.

Travel costs have risen faster than any other factor so why not give people the opportunity to compete for CC's at shows that are within a reasonable driving distance ? ....people are now much less likely to  troop down to Paignton or up Edingburgh trying to chase the few tickets left in their breed, they simply cannot afford to do so and will simply give up and find another hobby.

We seem fixated on the idea that any change will lead to a 'cheapening' of the UK title but that is surely dependent on the judge , plenty of dogs in countries which have Champion classes and CAC's on offer for all breeds  come over here and beat our home grown Champions ...grading coupled with withholding if required is the answer to maintaining quality not the ever decreasing circle of fewer and fewer dogs chasing fewer and fewer tickets !

Yvonne

I agree with making RCC count for something.

I don't agree with grading in the UK for the simple reason we are too small a community of breeder / exhibitor / judges in many breeds and there would be an element of deliberate downgrading out of spite. We have a network of "breed specialists" who take delight in trashing anything that is not connected to their own kennels, very publicly.  It works abroad because of the larger pool of judges who have no connection to the exhibits other than the fact they may (and do) play politics with who is at the other end of the lead as they do anywhere.  And I do love grading, I show and judge abroad regularly so see both sides of it.

Everyone in the world knows we already have cheap champions here.

NO to a Ch class - many breeds numerically are not strong enough to warrant a Ch class.

Grand Champion no.  A dog is either a Ch or not.

Crufts is too easy to qualify for.  Bringing back 1st place winners only I feel would keep people entering shows as now I know a lot who realise they may never make a Ch up but still want to brag "Crufts Qualified" and as soon as their dog gets a 3rd they don't show for the rest of the year.  And make it so you can qualify at every Ch show for every breed regardless of the fact that tickets may not be on offer for your breed at that show.

And EVERY Ch show to offer CC's for each sex in EVERY breed.  Surely the term Ch show is against the trade descriptions act as it is now? 

A limit on the length of lead used OUTSIDE rings .....GSDs on "washing lines" walking around benched dogs can increase nervousness in dogs and exhibitors!

I know it would never work so, please, take this as the hypothetical suggestion it is. There should be a team of handlers, one or two per ring depending on class entries to show and move all the dogs within the class, that way the dog would have more chance of being judged instead of the handler.

> So no, I strongly feel there should be nothing better than a Champion.

I agree, for those of us who do not have deep pockets we at least feel we have an even chance of showing the quality of our dogs and not to have the champion title devalued, by layer after layer of extra awards.

for many of us getting the title is quite enough and with modest showing most of us don't expect many more than the required 3 certificates.

We show ours well into veteran.  My girl that won 5CC's in one year has a total of 10, as with maternal duties and being sparingly shown that was quite an achievement.

Her daughter has 7, 4 of which gained once retired from breeding and as a veteran, and her daughter has 4, and has yet to show this year with CC's, sue to a second litter.

> far better to make 3 reserve CCs, under three different judges, count as a single CC. You would still need at least one outright CC to be able to claim the title though.

This would certainly encourage those who are getting RCC's to the same top dog in their breed.

The stark reality is that the vast majority of exhibitors......myself included, are 'also rans' that have no chance of winning a CC much less making up a Champion. I've never pet homed a dog in my life, I show every single dog I ever buy and satisfy myself with that, win or lose.  So whether or not a Champions class is introduced is neither here nor there to us really. A dog show is a day out among friends and aquaintances in the kind of atmosphere we enjoy. If I win a piece of card of any colour I'm thrilled.

The thing that would encourage me to show more than I already do is strictly financial. If entries could be made cheaper by doing away with compulsory benching and by reduced fees for second dogs and second entries that would be great. I also like the idea of re-introducing coach travel to shows. I used these in the 70s when I was a teenager and didn't drive.

I do also agree, that the beaten dog rule should not apply to stakes classes.

Dawn R.

Marianne , have entries at cat shows declined as much as those in the dog scene ?

More, I would say. Quite a lot more.  The way the cat fancy get around is it to run joint shows, i.e. back to back but on the SAME day. Get two shows for the price of one lot of petrol. But that is a lot easier said than done in cats where you pen them, sit down and wait, and don't have to make sure to be at the right ring at the right time.

Travel costs have risen faster than any other factor so why not give people the opportunity to compete for CC's at shows that are within a reasonable driving distance ? ....people are now much less likely to  troop down to Paignton or up Edingburgh trying to chase the few tickets left in their breed, they simply cannot afford to do so and will simply give up and find another hobby.

Yes this as exactly my point -the KC need to ask the BREED CLUBS for what shows to give tickets to, not stick to old rules meaning SKC has to be included even when not one single exhibitor lives in Scotland. If we had tickets at all shows you would get the person living closest entering, the others would wait for the show closer to where they live. The overall picture would be much worse. But as it is now, several of our shows have nobody living reasonably close eg. SKC, Bath, Richmond and Bournemouth ( Bath and Richmond will be gone next year though), whereas shows that DO get entries such as say Darlington, East of England, Midland Counties, they have no tickets. By the way there are CCs for all eligible breeds at all championship cat shows. That means there are often quite a lot of breeds without any entries at all at every show, and most Champions are made up never beating another cat. (The higher levels of titles do get to beat others though as they no longer compete against just their own breed or variety.)

Asking breed clubs where tickets should be kept will just result in them voting for the shows nearest to them ....look at the recent discussion about where our club shows should be - our Scottish members wanted them much further north, those in Cornwall or Devon wanted them in the South West whereas living out here in the Fens I could do with a Club show based Peterborough !  ......all that will happen is that most ticket shows will end up in the Midlands .

Yvonne

> If entries could be made cheaper by doing away with compulsory benching

The thing is I can't see how it would be cheaper, the dogs would still have to be put somewhere.

Already we have people crowding ringsides, often staying around the rings of other breeds or before or after their turn in the ring.

If people wanted to crate their dogs, then space would have to be found and it would need more space than taken up by a bench.

What about waterlogged ground (which benches keep us up from) and shelter from the elements for these crated dogs, that would still cost money, be it just the tenting, but more of it, as more space per exhibitor would be needed for spacing crates, and belongings safely.

Unless space was allocated, you would find the pushy got the best spaces, or commandeered ringside, and the rest of us would need to take pot luck.

I agree the also rans are the majority of exhibitors, and should be encouraged to continue with their loyalty. 

The majority of my dogs have been in this category, I am just fortunate to have done particularly well with three out of 10 I have shown over 20+ years.

......all that will happen is that most ticket shows will end up in the Midlands .

Yes but that would actually suit pretty much all Malinois exhibitors. :) Far better than Scotland in any event!!

Our biggest problem is the distance, thus expense of attending shows.  We are at the far SW of Wales so quite a long way from any Champs Shows.  We also comete in agility and LOVE Paignton for putting on 4 days of agility alongside the Champ Show.  We show for one day and have 3 days of agility, there is also an obedience comp on one of the days.  If more shows catered for more needs I think that entries all round would improve, and it gives breeders a chance to show that there dogs do something more than show.

I agree distance is the major factor. We have 7 shows with CCs and the nearest is 3 hours drive - absolutely nothing at all between Stafford and SKC and I'm about half way between the 2! The shows are also not very evenly spaced out across the show calendar, with 2 in March, 2 in May, 1 in June and 2 in August. If you have a bitch in season or out of coat then that wipes out even more chances.
Another factor is the other activities out there - I do agility with 3 of my dogs, but only 1 of those 3 is shown at breed shows. So if a Champ Show clashes with a local agility show, then I'd rather go away to the agility show for the weekend rather than drive for 3 or 4 hours to show under a judge who may not even have a genuine interest in the breed.

i love the idea of side attractions, i have a daughter here who has fallen out of love of the showing side of dogs but still has a great love of dogs but at the big champ shows its all about showing, if there were other things going on she would love to come to a show with us and i would not mind paying a small entry fee for her or maybe my parents who again are intrested in dogs but find the dog shows a little boring if they had something else to do we could make it into a family day out and if shows could increase revenue by extra people coming along then maybe entrys could fall a little to encourage more people along

I certainly think Open shows need to share with other events more.  My husband gets very bored at Open shows especially, where he is unlikely to know anyone (at least at champ shows he knows the people in our breed and can usually amuse himself going round the stalls etc for a bit).

When I had a local ring craft class Open shows were fun as you knew people in other breeds from training so could support them at the local shows, giving interest to what can be a very boring day if you are in a breed with few entries or just enter AVNSC.  There is a lot of waiting around, especially if you win BOB.

The best Open show I ever went to was run with a Game fair.  This gave exposure to the show, and for the breeds that most people don't see day to day, and gave exhibitors husbands, children etc something to do.

I rarely do general Open shows now, I think shows not being in their local area and linked with a ringcraft means new people don't come into shows, or if their first experiences are of a lonely day waiting around for their one or two classes, they don't bother.

North Devon agricultural show is another really great one as it has so many things going on, as craft fair, cattle competitions, my favorite thing being alpacas. Some sort of displays which I missed as I was holding out the sun. A really fantastic show which caters to many many people.

Seems a terrible shame that so many agricultural/town shows no longer run a dog show/section.

Grading would struggle here, too many friends judging friends. You only need to read the obsequious critiques, trying to apologise to their friends for not giving them the CC. It works best in countries where the judges don't show their own dogs week in week out with fellow exhibitors.

No benching..as much as may annoy some...so many people want to sit ringside and see the judging YET keep an eye on their dogs...
I cant do both and judging by the current trend, MOST people don't want benching. If we are talking maximum participation then that's a fact, tent after tent of empty benches at every show...and forcing us to use them wont increase entries.

More back to back shows or breed clubs using Championship show days to hold more open shows side by side.
We are having a breed open show following on after the Ch.show entry at Wales.

Stop the same old names judging too often. We have one or two who leave the bare minimum between appointments, we know their opinion so wont enter.
Open shows will slowly die the death if these nomadic groups of pals don't stop judging en bloc at all the shows. Almost every schedule I pick up contains one lady judge plus her friends, doing breeds and groups over and over. We all know that there is a race to make new 'All Rounders' but this is at the expense of the exhibitors.
Surely Open show secretaries have more imagination and brain than to use the same judges as those at all the nearby shows do.

Jumped down from my soap box now.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">In my opinion it leads to 'cheap' champions if they no longer compete for CCs, in some breeds it's then only a matter of time before you make anything and everything up as competition is knocked out.

Totally agree.  Just look at the farce of cat showing.  Champion to Grand Champion. Then Imperials were introduced and people got  cats made up to those so now we have the stupidly thought through Olympian's - Bronze, Silver & Gold.     Once your cat is Champion it can't compete for a CC, once it's a Grand Ch. it can't compete for Grands & so on.

You'll just get those judges who look upon their judging appointment as a way of rewarding those they know who will just give a Champion its 10 Champion class wins, so it will be no different than awarding it multiple CC's just for turning up.

I think its a question of costs nowadays, people just don't have money to enter every show going and then there's questionable judging.  The same faces in the Gundog group (I can only speak for this group as its the one I know) getting put through to judge every breed under the sun, they don't even look interested in what they are judging & just chose the people they know for the CC's.   No grey matter involved, claim your expenses for a day out!

So glad you see it the way I do Christine -wonder if it is because we are also dog people? I've hardly met anyone else who DOESN'T think all the extra cat titles are stupid and the fact Champions were banned from the open class -which no longer could even be called open. In the past you had to beat Champions to get made up. I made two Champions up in 2 shows this spring (as both were joint shows so 4 shows) without having to beat a single cat for the CCs.  Yes judges can and withhold but it's still not the same as beating quality.

One thing I've noticed in my breed is when you have a breeder judging you can lose a lot of entries as non of the people showing dogs that they bred can enter under them.

The price and travel puts me off showing more, you have the cost of a tank of petrol if not more then the entry fee. I don't realy like driving more than 2 hours as I tend to start drifting off. So I stick to ones near Wales or high Wycombe where my family lives so can make a weekend of it. It works out to a few champ shows a year which is enough for me. I also show mice and there are no shows in Wales the closest is 2hours so I only do a few shows a year, I refuse to do the big one up in haragot as its a 6 hour each way drive!

I'm cutting back on open shows now as there is normally never a breed class so stuck in avnsc or open where it seems the same two breeds wins the class every time, so I just don't see the point. I'll do one if it has a breed class (got 2 coming up!) And will do very local ones with in 30-40 mins drive if they have an avnsc class.

Also what about people who's group's are being judged on week days, they would need the day off work to go. That must put some off as well

One thing I would like is if the judge could tell you what they were thinking while they were going over your dog, you would know what they thought was good or not good even if you don't place and wouldn't take any extra time. My friends breed there is a lot showing and she never got placed, so she never got to know what the judge thought of her dog.

I prefer our system. All you see on fb with th aussies that theyve made their puppy to ch because qll they need to get iw points- its daft.  I saw a catalogue and all but one js was a ch even young puppies.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">So glad you see it the way I do Christine -wonder if it is because we are also dog people?

I probably think so!  The cat people would rather have no competition to get a title.  I have a friend who made up a Maine Coon to Imperial because all his other competition won out of the class so eventually all those reserves/no award he got became Imperials!     Made up by default!

Yes when a certain cat of mine that you have met got both his titles he had to beat the same cat -mine was far superior even if I do say so myself, but the other one got the Grand title in the end when mine was gone from the class.

It was the same as the brown tabby BSH that Hope kept beating in the IGC class, except under Mrs Luxford Watts (Least said about that the better!!!!!), once I stopped showing Hope, the BSH won its IGC title but she was on her own.

No Champion's class--I think otherwise it would be a matter of time before we have dogs made up more because of a function of timing than their own inherent quality.

If RCCs are to count towards a full CC, then 2 CCs + 3 RCCs should equate to the present 3 CCs.

Most of all I would like to see some standard arrangement for NFC/unentered dogs. More show societies seem to be getting rid of the unentered dogs tent, which is a godsend for me--I have 4 dogs, but can't afford benching fees for all 4 dogs and can't/won't leave the other two at home. As an example of how silly pricing is, we have no CCs at Darlington so a first entry is £15, but NFC costs £12! It is getting to the point where we will not be able to do many summer shows, simply because of an unwillingness on the part of show societies to offer affordable, appropriate accommodation for unentered dogs at a standard price.

I haven't read all this thread but would like to see an end to champions being shown at opens, its killed our entries and does not help judges.

I love the idea of a champions class, meaning that once a ch that's it, not this accumulation of CC's and records etc. I don't see anything wrong with Ch's being able to compete for BOB. I see the points about cheaper Ch's being made up but feel if the judge is honest enoug(there's another point) then they withold CC's/RCC's, quite simply if no dog below the champion class deserves it then its not awarded,  but like the European part of being graded, only those with excellent can challenge. So you could win your class with a very good but it compete any further.

As for RCC's meaning something, yes I think they should but on the merit that you've already got 2 CC's, so need 3 RCC's to become a ch...

I say no to all BOB's graded excellent at open shows to be given Crufts qualification.

I say that with JW's not ever being checked that they remove the open show aspect, make it totally ch show so results can be checked, make it that by doing lots of classes at one show doesn't allow you to gain extra points, max 3 at any ch show.. Far too many dogs are getting this when they shouldn't, claiming for it fraudulently and it needs to stop as it gains a dog a sbn at a very young age, or do away with it all together!

All benching to be beside said ring if you choose to take it, no crates to be ringside, these to be allocated space only, you are given a plot number a bit like benching if you want a crate elsewhere.
Yes optional benching is a good idea as long as this doesn't lead to dogs being left in vehicles.

All general ch shows to have an unentered dogs tent, with funds going to a set breed rescue of choice

All vehicles must show a parking permit which shows your bench/crate number so can easily locate if dogs left in vehicles.

To mix some of the groups up a bit, I'd love a few shows where working and gundogs are together, no one can explain why they can't, at least then I can catch up with my mates :)

If we didn't have the large entries I'd like all exhibits to be critiqued, I guess if they continue to drop this maybe possible

For all judges to submit critiques, if they fail then they are banned from judging for a year, if they do it again then lifetime ban, I'm sure this would buck up ther ideas, this is for ch, open and limit, no excuses, if you take an appointment you do your full duty!

Well done Paignton ch. show. I've bern saying fir years on the internet that it wd be great to have scurries etc at a dog show. Well I believe Paignton had agility and a scurry brilliant!

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">I love the idea of a champions class, meaning that once a ch that's it, not this accumulation of CC's and records etc. I don't see anything wrong with Ch's being able to compete for BOB. I see the points about cheaper Ch's being made up but feel if the judge is honest enoug(there's another point) then they withold CC's/RCC's, quite simply if no dog below the champion class deserves it then its not awarded,  but like the European part of being graded, only those with excellent can challenge. So you could win your class with a very good but it compete any further.

I literally shudder at this thought.  Witholding is hardly ever done at dogs shows so it would lead to cheap champions.  I am glad to say those three dogs I have bred that have won their titles did so in good company not just because the Champions were ousted out.

And looking at what gets graded as excellent in a lot of breeds in Europe, the quality is a lot poorer.

I agree, this reminds me of the way kids sports days have gone,  no one losing everyone being a winner. Sometimes it does you good to have to work hard to attain things.

> And looking at what gets graded as excellent in a lot of breeds in Europe, the quality is a lot poorer.

Not in all breeds.  For my breed the quality is far far higher.  And for a breed that movement is all important the judges abroad reward correct movers, and penalise incorrect.  Unlike the UK where overall the majority of exhibits the movement is dire.  I have just seen an exhibit get a CC & RCC in the past month that literally cannot trot.  The weakness in the hind limbs is sickening yet because of who owns it ensures it will go onto gain it's title. Most of us "still" showing would not even enter it in a show, it really is that bad.  Any foreign judge would grade only G or DQ.  Foreign visitors seeing our breed judging at UK shows are appalled by the lack of knowledge of British judges for movement, and it is not limited to all rounders the breed specialists are just as bad and awarding tickets to those who themselves have upcoming judging appointments.  No wonder our breed has lost 75% of exhibitors in the past 10 years.  Cheap Champions are already here and established.

The quality is higher here for my breed. Many winners in Europe struggle to get a place here.

I think it will largely depend on whether the breed is a well established British breed, or one that is a minority here and well established abroad and originating there.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">> And looking at what gets graded as excellent in a lot of breeds in Europe, the quality is a lot poorer.<br />Not in all breeds.

Please not I said 'in a lot' NOT all!!!!!

In my breed they struggle over here even though some have umpteen titles across Europe.

We already in some breeds or under certain judges have cheap champions I agree with that, also I feel if we were to adopt a champions class(mixed feelings on this board) then the judges would need a huge kick up the posterior in stating that if the quality isn't there then no CC is awarded.
I'm getting sick and tired of seeing dogs gaining top honours when they are lame or pace around the ring, or just have poor movement, that's not top quality regardless of how the rest of the dog is, I can't believe those with dogs I've described as above even had the audacity to put their dogs in the ring in that state..

Not saying it hasn't or doesn't happened but all rounders don't tend to put up lame dogs that's I've seen, its the breed specialists(not all) but politics clearly comes into judging by some or in some breeds many.

The worst shows are when you can predict within a few dogs who will take top honours, regardless of how said dogs will and do perform on the day...

RCC to become CC if CC awarded dog is already a Champion.