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i have a 10 mth old alsation bitch she is a very bad walker when i take her out she always pulls i use a choker but honestly i dont think it works, dosent matter how many times you pull her back or stop she continues pulling im really tempted to get her trained to attack intruders but at the moment with the lead i think its a bad idea. in the house she is fairly good if someone comes up to the house she is very alert her ears goes right back and starts barking also when i take her out she is the same very alert but clumsy on the lead her dad was trained in the army though it may sound daft but would you say she will take after her dad

Sorry but I don’t think ANY dog in a normal household should be trained to attack. I believe it is irresponsible. A dog like a GSD is deterrent enough without that and the risks to innocent people don’t bare thinking about.

John

John, I agree. It seems to me is though she hasn't done too much research into the subject. I mean lets be honest, where's heel and where is ATTACK AN INTRUDER. Maybe she has a genuine reason (like I did) but is still new to life in the dog world( like I still am). FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE READING THIS....... Just because your interested in Protection, doesn't make you a BAD owner!!!!!!
Take it easy on her!
Josh_

well john wot can i say you dont agree but what about the police wot dogs do they have em let me think gsd they attack and some even kill so whats wrong in getting my trained up im not going to get her to attack any tom dick or harry its called protecting the house and my 2 very young children

<<<attack and some even kill>>>

Strange, I thought service dogs were trained to bark and hold not bark and kill!!! :rolleyes:

For the same reason you aren't allowed to have a gun. The Police are authorised and trained in their use. A Police dog that has been trained to detain criminals is carrying out an order, it's training is based on the play drive and wanting the sleeve.

The average person and dog are not suited to this type of work, and it would be totally irresponsible to train a family dog in this role.

Any Police dog that attacks someone is put to sleep, as evidenced in a case last year where a dog bit a ypou8th while Police were trying to aprehend him. The dog was tested, and found not to be reliable enough.

At the moment your dog is not controlled enough to heel on lead, and your skills are unlikley to be anything like those of a Police dog trainer or handler.

Also you would leave yourself open to prosecution under the dangerous dog act if your dog even frightened someone enough to think it was dangerously out of control.

so much you know about dogs then my sister is in the police force she got bit by one of there dogs and no the dog did not get put down you will only get put away if your dog attacks someone and your in your home if your out you wont im not getting her trained to KILLlike i said to protect theres nothing wrong in that

What area are you in Chantelle? Give us all chance to keep out of the way please!

lol@Val
I cant imagine what this dog is going to be like I hopre he does not turn on your family
Police dogs are not trusted once they bite and I am surprised your sister has not told you that .
They do not get rid I know as that is what they are for , but they are a weapon . I hope yours dont backfire on you .
Can you not train him to be a good family dog he will then protect instinctively as mine do .

<<<if your out you wont >>>

If you're out and your 'attack' trained dog bites somebody, you (and the poor dog) will face the consequences...if you're out and your obedience trained (CGC even) dog bites somebody, you at least have a chance of proving he's an otherwise well trained dog and he has a chance....sorry, JMO, but with your attitude and your dog, it seems to me that you're setting both yourselves up for a fall!

The thing making my mind boggle is why does your GSD need to learn how to protect:rolleyes: I have a 10 month old GSD who is the friendliest most out-going dog (bitch actually) you could ever wish to meet:) I have two small children too- the youngest of which she somewhat *mothers*:D I know that if ever I needed her- if I was being attacked etc she would be straight there for me and my children protecting us- this is something that I have never taught/trained her to do- she just would! I would hate to think that I'd trained her too because god only knows what I'd have on my hands- a walking timebomb most likely:o

I also doubt that with her as a deterrant you'd need her trained. (I've said this before but for the benefit and all.......) Last year I woke up to the most horrendous barking you could ever imagine at 3am- somewhat unusual for my bitch who's always gone to bed and slept through I got up thought nothing of it and settled her down again. The next morning my patio furniture was re-arranged and one of the chairs pushed up to the wall- under the kitchen window:o the window I'd left open by mistake:o That same morning there was a police car on the street and two of the houses on the street had actually been burgled (Sp?) and a further one tried:o Obviously they had tried mine too but were put off by my *alarm*;) :)

Stacey x x x

I can't believe that you would train a dog to attack intruders -- a loud, healthy bark is usually more than enough to scare away intruders. Think of how awful you would feel if your dog turned on your children. It CAN and HAS happened to people. Dogs are wonderful animals, but they are ANIMALS, and like all animals, there comes some unpredictablity with them. You are not an animal trainer, and besides the police force, I would never want to meet someone who would train a dog to viciously attack a person. Think of the liability if nothing else! Who would want to go to a person's house where they have an attack dog! With children, no less! You should be reported to child services is what should happen. ATTACK DOGS DO NOT BELONG WHERE THERE ARE CHILDREN. Period.

I read this years ago in a book and have never forgotten it
"The best way to teach a dog to protect you is to teach it to love you"

Anne

Too true Anne;)

Stacey x x x

I've got a GSD bitch too. Sophie is 16 months old. I also wanted her to do protection, but am having second thoughts now! I must say that I'm not an expert but have, and still am doing loads of reading on behavour, training etc. If you search my name, you'll find a post which I wrote on the heel. Thats the way I did it. You must realise that at 10 months, pups want to explore the world, especially GSD's, who are very inteligent and want to know everything about everything!!!

>doesnt matter how many times you pull her back< A lot of people prefer to use positive re-invorcement only, but I prefer a balance. I do believe check chains have a role to play in dog training, but like anything, only when used properly. NEVER pull your dog, especially with a check chain, it can really damage a dogs weak neck!
>would you say she will take after her dad< Sophie is exactly like her mum. Loving but very protective, yet her mum was not in the army or anything of the sort. It depends on the mum too, but just from reading your message, I'd say that she has a good chance of being "like her dad". Having said that, protection is all about the dogs temperament!!!!! YOU DONT WANT A VICIOUS DOG, OR A DOG WHO WILL BARK AT ANYTHING. A protection dog MUST have nerves of steel.

Go to a web-site www.leerburg.com if your interested in any type of dog obidience/sport or protection and read a book called "Protection Dogs For You And Your Family" by (.......hang on let me find the book...AH...) Weiss Rose (this is also sold on the Leerburg site). It does not show you how to train your own protection dog, but emphasis how to nurture a dogs temperament so it MAY be able to. The book encourages loads of socialisation (even strangers in your house) and the difference between a "yard dog"( a dog that barks and is aggressive because it fears for its own safety, and a well trained "protection dog". The dog must be confident in all situations, fearing NOTHING!!! I could go on and on about the subject(I'd love to) but its best that you read the book and look at the web-site, I really really really recommend it!!!!
Josh_

You need to get her general control (heelwork, recalls, stays, distance control etc) near perfect before you even begin to think about any protection training because if you can't get control her heelwork you will never be able to contol anything else. All these things have to be trained for and channelled and it takes a lot of work. I would suggest you find a GSD orientated training club and go and watch.

Christine

I agree with Christine, but would also like to add that you must have TOTAL CONTROL of your dog off lead aswell.
Josh

Josh,

". NEVER pull your dog, especially with a check chain, it can really damage a dogs weak neck! "

A dog's neck is not weak, it is one of the most muscular parts of their body. It is the very reason why some people have no success using check chains. A dog like a GSD can drag you around all day without a problem if the chain is around the neck when trying to correct it and it refuses to take the hint. You would give up long before the dog.

In politically incorrect days, check chains were called "choke" chains. They were designed to be used very high up on the neck, almost behind the ears so the chain passed under the dog's throat. And they could choke a dog, literally. A quick correction was an indication to the dog that if it did not follow what you wanted it to do, it could choke. I was taught that if a dog was out of control to hang it by the choke chain until it was properly subdued. Lovely, eh? Not.

Stacey

A dogs neck may not be weak, but it certainly wasn't designed to have a metal chain around it and to have that chain pulled - the windpipe is NOT protected by muscles, nor is the spine at the back, nor the nerves which extend from the spine.......

Any dog pulling against any form of collar is taking pressure on the windpipe whether chain, leather or whatever. The answer is to train the dog not to pull. Almost no dog pulls the very first time it is taken out and at that stage you are not trying to correct faults, just stop them from ever starting to happen which is relatively easy.

John

If your dog is constantly dragging forwards and it's a pain try this......

Shorten your lead so your dogs shoulder is level with your left thigh! Walk with both hands clasped behind your back and hold the lead in both hands. Now all strain of your dog pulling you is in your legs and not in your shoulder, arm or lower back.
Now as you walk and you step forward with your right leg, your left leg is behind you blocking the dog from surging forward with each step. To take that further with the persistent dog. Imagine you are marching ... left, right, left right left right etc.... change that to left right left right left...left..right left...left...right. As you pause for one step on your left leg, your dog anticipating you walking normally will pull forward and recieve a sharp correction! Then carry on walking normally with a random pause on the left leg if you need the correction!
If your dog stops surging forward and starts walking nicely next to you then you can drop your hands to the side - it's easy to put them behind your back and start again.
I've used this method on adult GSD's that have never been properly trained to walk on the lead with great success in next to no time!
Lara x

Lara, good advice. Can you add it to this thread. Thank you :-)

Done :)

Thank you :-)

I agree that any training of a protection dog needs so much training and work, and many owners won't have the time to get the training to the very high standard required. Also as John says, training a family dog to think in this way - well - it's not a route i would take personally.

Have you considered working trials training with your dog? As you progress through the stakes, you can train for the Patrol Dog stake which does involve some protection training, but you have to really put in lots of work and so you know both you and the dog are ready by the time you are elilgible to compete.

I do feel though that you need to ge the basics sorted. A GSD needs good exercise, I met one recently that just would not stop pulling, but yet it only got walked locally round the park, and round the roads. They do need more than that, as i am sure you know, but if yours is not getting this then it will be ver hard to train heelwork/loose lead walk.

I've trained dogs previously on check chains but you do have to put a lot of effort into training and still mustn't walk even a step with the dog pulling. This is the key IMHO, because just a few steps down the road with the dog pulling is giving conflicting training to the dog.

Invest in an anti pull harness for when you want to get to A to B and cannot train, but give yourself time every day for proper training - I now train with a normal colllar and lead using clicker, (we are still perfecting it, ;) ) I use something called the Premack Principle too, which i find invaluable, for loose lead walk.

It means basically rewardign the dog with what he likes best in a situation, so for example if I am out with BAnya (BSD) she really wants to run about and play off lead. So (having put in a lot of work previously with her on loose lead) i ask for loose lead for say, 2 steps, then she is straight away off lead and allowed to be free.
O
Over the months we have graduated to 5 steps, 10, etc etc and she will now walk pretty much anywhere on a loose lead, even when very excited and wound up. The one place where we still have to work at it is when we go to dog club as she loves it so much and would really prefer to get in the door as quickly as possible please!!! :) :o

anyway good luck

Lindsay

<<<if someone comes up to the house she is very alert her ears goes right back and starts barking>>>

Just from your description above, I'd say your GSD is definately not a candidate for 'attack' training (for want of a better word!). Ears back and barking/growling are not the signs of a confident dog which she would need to be...she is however, an ideal candidate for obedience classes/training. That would sort out your problem of her pulling on lead and as John says, the fact she's a GSD (and a noisy one) will put off intruders!

Many years ago, my mentor, one of the top names in obedience at that time and also a judge for the Obedience at Crufts on two occasions, was working his GSD in both Obedience and Working Trials. He was working PD Stakes so manwork was a part of the test. One day whilst working in an Obedience competition he accidentally used his Manwork command to send his dog instead of his Sendaway command. The end result worried him to such an extent that he told me he would never train manwork again and to his dying day he never did!

He was an expert with years of experience and if it could happen to him, what chance the novice? As I said before, it is irresponsible in the extream! As for comparing yourself with a police dog handler. . . . . . . . .

John

I agree with you John :) and I remember you discussing this before - it is something I have remembered and i personally intend to go down the TD route with Banya.

I really hope this poster doesn't do any kind of protection work, but if they did get involved in the trials scene, at least their dog would have to be under control and they would have to earn their way up the stakes and might even get put off with all the hard work ;)

Lindsay

please think really careful about teaching her attack .it's a really bad idea unless you know exactly what your doing also there are a lot of bad trainers who will take your money to so-call train your dog to that standard but i hope you realise their methods can be extremely cruel .Also she sounds a little nervous a confident shepherd when on the alert has ears upright not back and does not need to give all the verbal(barking) If i were you i would find a good obedience training club and learn to train her correctly , shepherds don't need to be taught to protect their families they do it instinctively they are a herding guarding breed and will always look after those they love.Also she is still a baby don't forget that.