Hello All
I've been following the forum for a little while now (and others too..) trying to pluck up the courage to actually post myself. I know breeding is a very contentious issue and on some forums there is no way I would dare to type a word!
Well here goes - We have four dogs in our home, they rule our lives and we love every minute! Two of our family are toy breeds, Lola is almost 4 and Bella is 2. Ever since we had Lola I have been completely obsessed with the breed, Read books, joined groups,  you name it I did it. We talked about puppies but when Lola would have been old enough we felt it wasn't right for us as we did not have the finances or the 100% commitment needed to raise puppies and look after mum (not that our babies aren't looked after but you know what i mean!
Then we had Bella - She's an amazing little lady and of course the question of breeding comes up again. I researched and researched obviously not always finding the information I wanted to hear of course but wanted to find out more. Being now in a position where we can afford the fees and take time out to be at home I researched and found an amazing breeders with a beautiful stud boy, we traveled 200 miles to see them before Bella was near being in season and chatted about everything - We studied the pedigrees of each dog and talked about their temperaments etc to decide if they would be a good match and produce quality healthy puppies with a nice genealogy. They both have 4 champions on the 5 year pedigree and not one match..
Well 2 weeks later Bella came into season (way earlier than we thought!) and off we went - She was away for 5 days but the breeders were amazing, we talked every day and were elated when then the "deed" was done.  
Ok,  so we had a scan on day 33, we clearly saw 3 puppies although the vet said there may be more. We are now on day 40, Bella is absolutely fine, getting chubby, moody and So loving! Trouble is I am terrified and feel like the worst person in the world, I'm not asking for sympathy honestly, I just needed to ask if anyone else has had the same feelings? I was so sure of everything, is this just a first litter (and last!) thing....
I'm sorry if I offend anyone, I think I did my homework but feel free to call me an idiot if you wish :(
By the way the breeders are now my best friends, their support is 24/7 !
Thank you for reading xx

If you mean are you unusual in being terrified then no, even experienced breeders worry as they know things can go wrong and are worried in case they miss the signs. If the stud breeder is experienced and is going to mentor you then you have the support you need and there is not a lot more you can do. It would be of help to know if the dams behind you bitch normally whelp with no problem or it they normally need intervention, also best to make sure your list of puppy people is larger than the number you are expecting to be born.

Thank you for your reply, Yes I am scared but I have the support thank God
We know Bella's mum self whelped but the breeder did not keep in contact sadly, We have list of people, two in the family and one outside which have been in the loop since the beginning and lots of interest! OMG we may  become a zoo, love it xxx

Have you checked to make sure your bitch does not have a non registration endorsement? If she does you have better make contact quick with her breeder or you will not be able to register your puppies. The breed club may be able to give you information about the likelihood of your bitches lines self whelping or not the breeders affix will have a reputation of one sort or the other and being forewarned can only be helpful.

Thanks, I will try and check. Bella was bought by my daughter not from a recognised breeder as such, so there won't be an affix..

Do you mean she is not registered?

you don't need an affix to place endorsements on pups when you register them with the KC, the dogs registration certificate will have the endorsements[2 possible] on it, surely the stud owner checked all this before letting you use their dog.

Sorry thought there was some hidden info that I'd missed! Yes she's KC registered and her Registration papers have no endorsements noted, I wouldn't have gone ahead otherwise! I had visions then that I should have done something more than I did - Phew.
Oh, i thought an affix was something the KC allowed you to have as an experienced / recognised breeder. Duh, still learning.

If you have no affix the kennel club give you one so your bitch will have a name starting with a K. As you have her registration papers you should be able to look up some of her ancestors and see what tests they have and the results - unfortunately you will not be able to see if the bitches were self whelping which is what you need to know, you can also put the name of the stud in to see what tests have been done for him and his ancestors, but I expect you will have already done that.

Would try to find out about the self whelping if the bitches breeder is not available to you the breeders behind her will be and you should be able to contact them through the breed club or the show ring.

Yes thanks Jackie, I have been on the KC website and entered names of ancestors etc , nothing nasty showed up but to be fair there was actually no results for many so who knows!. I also did the coefficient calculation - It came out at 6 average. Bella alone was only a 3.
Yes thanks that's a good idea, I looked for a breed club, came up with one but I am going to contact them as it wasn't really clear about what they actually are about - possibly more like a breed fan club, not sure! They did have info about shows etc so that was helpful.
Many thanks for your advice

I think you sound VERY responsible!  I think that may be why you're having this feeling of dread. 

Two thoughts - re. affix, it will cost £75 to get one and £20 p/a to maintain.  I took one out on my first litter, but unless you're showing or sending the pups to show homes, they're a bit useless, having said, I love having mine and maintained it for 10yrs before having a 2nd litter AND put it on all my non-related dogs.  I like the sense of them having a collective identity...

My 2nd thought is to think ahead beyond the birth and rearing re. homing the pups.  The market is flooded in my breed and a lot of breeders are getting stuck with older pups, knocking the price down in order to sell them, and inevitably attracting the wrong sort of owner. 

I've noticed that some breeders are advertising their pups before they are born and getting them homes to go to as soon as they are old enough, giving them updates and photos of their growing pups - I like this idea - I think it must help with the bonding process, and make it less likely for a new owner to buy on impulse.

The stud dog owner should be able to put their feelers out too.

Apologies if this is irrelevant and your breed is one that is much in demand. Mine is very over-bred and I was one of the ones stuck with unsold pups which I felt duty bound to keep.... I do a lot of walking :-)

Once you've finished preparing for the pups and have covered all bases, I think your present feelings will turn to utter excitement!  Very good luck :-)

Thank you so much Saffron for your reply and your understanding, I seem to have become a complete air head recently (well more so than usual :) )!!
Yes, I don't think I will go down the Affix route just yet even though I really like the idea and would dearly love to start showing myself. I've been to shows but to be honest my dog training is not so good - I'm going to take our latest puppy (different breed)to classes starting soon (sooner the better!!).
I agree about the "pre advertising", I have two couples now who I am updating constantly and who are really excited about their new babies. Because I think we will only have a small litter, but could be wrong of course, I will stick with that for now, I'd hate to disappoint anyone...
Our breed is popular but on the higher price range, there are however a good few ads out there! Our stud dog breeder who is my mentor will help us with the pups if we need it. They sadly lost a litter (two pups) and have people waiting who have already been "vetted" by them - and boy are they tough!
Well we are now on day 50, Mum to be is fine but not eating much over the last few days which I put down to the heat. I'm just cooking up a nice bit of chicken which I'm sure will tempt her.
Thanks again, your comment about the walking made me smile!
Very best wishes x

You do sound very responsible, and, as a novice, trying to do things properly.

As the big day gets nearer, you will get sooo excited.  :-)

Remember that your bitch can easily whelp from day 56, so you really need to be sleeping with her by then.  Be assured, they love to do it in the early hours of the morning - to get you back!  :-p   You will need to be ready with obstetric gel and Dopram "just in case" as you won't have time to be disorganised if she does need your help.

And once pups are born you will need to sleep with her for at least the first 3 weeks, and be ready to move any pups that have travelled round mum, and got stuck at the back.  The last thing you want is a crushed dead puppy.

By the time the pups have reached the stage that you are certain they all will survive, you need to be aware of one thing.    Your hair will have gone grey, and you will look like a zombie!   :-)  :-)  :-)

Personally I would always go for an affix if I was already going to breed, so that from the very first my pups were identified with each other and me, having their surname if you will.

It shows the start of your line, else why breed, if you don't intend to breed on.

I would never have bred my first litter if the plan hadn't been to take it further and start a line of my own.  I am now in my 7th generation.

Personally I don't see the point in breeding with no intention of showing. I assume the dogs aren't worked either if the OP isn't good at training. So why breed at all? :(

There's more to life, dog and human, than showing. Ok if you are a face and winning every week but for the rest of us our dogs are so much more than puppets on a string. And yes I do a bit of showing and work my dogs but this is a small part of their otherwise full lives.
Most dog owners just want a well bred dog as a companion and, after all, this is where most end up. I know what I would rather be and it's not the poor dog dragged the length and breadth of the county each week to get a piece if card in the scorching heat.

Most dog owners just want a well bred dog as a companion and, after all, this is where most end up.

How will you get a wellbred example of your breed if the mother hasn't proved herself either in the showring or any form of work? You won't. Little faults will sneak in and before you know it, you have a dog that looks different to what it should, or acts differently. You only need to look around you when you are out and about, to see the oversized Cavaliers, the Labradors with yellow eyes, the Golden Retrievers that won't retrieve, the Staffies well! No words needed for them.

A responsible breeder breeds for the better of the breed, and you cannot do that blindly.

the poor dog dragged the length and breadth of the county each week to get a piece if card in the scorching heat.

LOL either you live in Mexico or you think we only have dog shows during the 2 weeks a year we have warm weather. :)

he poor dog dragged the length and breadth of the county each week to get a piece if card in the scorching heat.

I have a lovely photo of people at Blackpool last year paddling in wellies INSIDE the marquee

Well I manage to afford about a dozen shows a year, along with the majority of exhibitors, our dogs do all the other things for 350+ days a year.

It's only when you are fully involved in the wider breed community (join breed clubs, where information is disseminated on health and any other issues that need to be borne in mind) that you can breed with any sort of knowledge.

You need to be able to see and evaluate dogs qualities, so you need to attend events where the majority of the potential breeding animals are going to be present for evaluation of them and/or their offspring.

How does an average pet owner evaluate their dog (good and bad points), against what are they comparing, how are they selecting a breeding partner.

> I have a lovely photo of people at Blackpool last year paddling in wellies INSIDE the marquee <IMG alt=eek src="/images/eek.gif">

Ditto for East of England.  Watching movement was interesting in our ring, some ploughed on through, some tiptoed through the tulips, some zig-zagged to avoid puddles and the steady streams from the roof.

This year was hot and exhibitors kept dogs as cool as possible, (on the grass rather than roadways) as otherwise they won't show well.  Peni was a bit flat for me, and it's only a few minutes in the ring and back to the shade.

On the other hand I am constantly horrified by how many people are dragging their pet dogs around in the heat of the day on hot tarmac and concrete pavements around our way.

If I don't get up before 7am for a morning walk, then the dogs get walked after 10pm.

Ditto Brainless -I get so angry seeing pet owners walk their dogs during the hottest part of the day. Mine are asleep in the shade, or chewing a bone, water bowl next to them, and go out  for a run when it is cooler.

Blackpool this year had only a bit of rain, but it was FREEZING. I was wearing winter clothes and kept wishing I'd have brought my gloves! In the town I saw people wearing hats, scarves and gloves! The dogs of course were not bothered as they don't need extra clothes -but it was a shame it was too cold and above all too windy to take them for a run on the beach and a paddle in the sea after the judging, which is what we normally always do.

East of England is the ONLY show I have been to this year where it was hot. I've been to 12 dog shows this year so far. Not counting the one fun show we went to last weekend, where we brought the retired 13 year old. She usually howls in disappointment each time we go to a show and she can't come with us, this time she was so happy she finally got to come again. A bit wobbly on the legs but she had such fun, went in the "Best condition veteran" class with my 13 year old son (yes they are the same age) and did everything herself, I had told him he didn't need to bother trying to get a stand or anything but she did it all herself, stood there tail wagging, blissful, and won the class. Not seen her so happy for ages. :)

Maybe the only one this year, so far, but how often have there been discussions on this forum about dogs left in cars at shows on hot days? Oh and I do know about Blackpool last year, I would have been there as one of my few shows if it hadn't been cancelled.
The point I was trying to make was that this person has a well bred dog, is using a good stud dog so what is the harm in that? Ok so it may not show but at least the puppies will give people wishing to own this breed a choice rather than heading for the nearest puppy farm as not everyone may feel comfortable buying from a show kennel.
I have seen some horrendous dogs that have been show bred in various breeds so it doesn't guarantee a thing. I've also seen some cracking dogs that have been work bred and more than capable of holding their own if they were to be shown.

>The point I was trying to make was that this person has a well bred dog, is using a good stud dog so what is the harm in that?

I've had some very well-bred dogs which weren't suitable to breed from; luckily I was aware of this!

Maybe the only one this year, so far, but how often have there been discussions on this forum about dogs left in cars at shows on hot days?

Irresponsible people leaving dogs in cars on hot days are not exclusive to shows -it happens everywhere, outside supermarkets etc. That some people are irresponsible is not a good enough reason not to go to shows.

The point I was trying to make was that this person has a well bred dog, is using a good stud dog so what is the harm in that?

The harm is as described before -plus there is NO NEED. There are plenty of wellbred pups available from people properly IN dogs, that show or work (or both), are active within their breed clubs etc. The people that have the knowledge and experience of their breed. Those are the people who should be left to do the breeding, not those just wanting a litter for the sake of it -or to make money. Just wanting a litter is never a good enough reason to breed.

I have seen some horrendous dogs that have been show bred in various breeds so it doesn't guarantee a thing.

Indeed -but once you've shown the bitch you want to breed from, you need to take heed of the results. If the majority of judges don't place the dog or place it low, then there is a reason for that -and then you don't breed from her. And again, just because there are bad people out there doesn't mean everyone is the same. If my neighbour didn't have a TV license I wouldn't argue that it's pointless me having one. I'd do things the right way.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">The point I was trying to make was that this person has a well bred dog, is using a good stud dog so what is the harm in that?

But what is termed good?  Splashes of red in  a pedigree count for nothing if they are back about 4-5 generations, that only means that plenty of pet quality animals have been bred on from since.   What is a 'good stud dog'?   One that does the deed or one that sires consistent type throughout his puppies when mated to lots of decent bitches from differing lines?      

When you breed a litter of puppies, hopefully one or two will head out to the show-ring and do ok, there could be 8+ other puppies in the litter who will be equally as well bred but maybe just not have the necessary conformation for the show-ring but they are decent puppies.  Many of my 'pet' homed puppies are better than some examples of the breed I own, being currently shown!!!

Lol Jean, I have a permanent headache, maybe it's the hair follicles getting ready for the change! - and err well Zombie probably almost there already :)

Bella has been sleeping with me for weeks now along with her sister (!) so no change there then, I have the whelping box up there and keep putting her in but she's not fussed at the moment. I've got plastic sheets and all sorts of other coverings just in case it happens on the bed. I guess I shouldn't move her when things get started?

I have the Dopram on order and the vet has some gel for me which I'm picking up tomorrow, then I think I have everything. My mentor also suggested having some oxytocin but she is very experienced and I'm not..I think I would be calling my vet before that point (They are really close at hand luckily). I would however be interested for anyone's opinion on that.

Well I will post an update, Yes I am excited but almost feel I could do with more time to get ready even though I am! (silly I know). There are 3 of us here and my daughter who is a nurse is going to stay from now on - not a vet I know but sensible and unlikely to panic!

Thank you and Best wishes

Personally I don't see the point in breeding with no intention of showing.
I also don't see the point of breeding from a bitch  who
was bought by my daughter not from a recognised breeder as such, so there won't be an affix..
and has done nothing to prove her quality. 
They both have 4 champions on the 5 year pedigree and not one match..
And is this supposed to impress?  I can see no worth in this at all. :(
I have been on the KC website and entered names of ancestors etc , nothing nasty showed up but to be fair there was actually no results for many so who knows!.
What research can you do when so many ancestors aren't even on the Kennel Club Register?

What's the point in producing another litter of ordinary pet puppies?

Give her a break.
She is trying to do things responsibly, which is a whole lot more than most people out there....and they are becoming the majority. No mentors, no knowledge, no empathy,  no backup and nothing beyond the pound notes. I've said my piece before about how the bybs operate... I see it every day on certain fb groups, and those groups are now the most common way for people to find puppies.

We need conscientious breeders of ALL species not just dogs, who will go the extra mile to do it right. With so many poorly bred and raised animals flooding the market, someone who is trying to get it right needs to be encouraged. Maybe she will show in the future, but in the face of what's becoming the norm, at least her dogs are registered and pedigreed and she wants to do the best by them. It's a good start.

Oxytocin is a serious drug and even as a midwife would not be happy to use it on my dogs away from the vets, it could be given at the wrong time and cause fatal damage to the bitch and her pups.

at least her dogs are registered and pedigreed
Sorry a pedigree is only a collection of names if you don't actually know the dogs on there.  And with no shared ancestors that's over 100 dogs to try to find out about.

So an unshown bitch with no knowledge of any of the dogs behind her, from a suspect breeder taken to a complete outcross?  How is that any different to any other puppy producer???

What a shame this poster didn't come on here when she was thinking about mating her bitch and then she would have received all sorts of useful help and advice.  Her first post is AFTER the mating. :(  I agree that this poster is trying and that is commendable, but she had a hell of a lot more learning to do before mating this bitch or in fact any bitch at all. :(

With so many poorly bred and raised animals flooding the market, someone who is trying to get it right needs to be encouraged.

But the difference between a wellbred litter and a poorly bred litter is not ONLY relevant health testing. If it was, then we might as well all breed mongrels. I'm afraid this doesn't sound like a wellbred litter at all to me.

When I first started researching the dogs on a pedigree I thought the more red the better, I then realised that there were many dogs on there who had been shown and done well but never got that 3rd CC, lots of RCC's but been pipped at the post by having lots of very good dogs up against them.

Line breeding is taboo to some and they don't want any common ancestors on a pedigree, this leaves it totally pot luck as to what the pups are going to be like, with line bred dogs you can see the similarities from generations and hopefully seal in the good traits.

I hope the OP has a safe and healthy whelping and find good homes for the pups.

Thanks Rhodach.

Thank you for post. Yes certainly I would love to show in the future. Now my children are grown up and doing their own thing it's the right time.
I'm sorry to the people I have offended, I do value opinions otherwise I wouldn't have posted in the first place :(
Thank you to everyone who has responded, I appreciate your knowledge and the time it has taken for you to gain it.

Best wishes to all.

I agree with MsTemeraire, she is starting in the right direction, and we don't need to discourage her from coming on here for help and advice just because she doesn't yet show her dogs!

Lucy the OP has stated she has no INTENTION of showing.

Not how I read her last posting!!!

Missed that, so that's good news. :)

"I've been ... trying to pluck up the courage to actually post myself. I know breeding is a very contentious issue and on some forums there is no way I would dare to type a word! "

Does that apply to this one too now?!
Lots of people follow the threads not just the relatively few people who answer the posts.( Those who take the time to answer are great even if they have strong views - so not knocking anybody)
From the silent majority ...hope all goes well and let us know how you get on.

sjr, Thank you - Err well just a little bit scared maybe :) I'm thinking I'll save any last minute questions for the Vet tomorrow!

Thank you all for your thoughts and comments, it is truly appreciated and I only cried once Lol.

Hopefully one day I may be knowledgeable enough to offer advice to someone else.....

I will let you know how we get on

Very best wishes

Mel x