Hello, a friend of my grandmothers who breeds a toy breed has had a litter of three with not to great results. One puppy was born with three legs and then at 6 weeks was diagnosed with hydrocephalus and had to be pts, puppy two was fine until about 2 weeks ago when it came down with a very large abscess on the left side of its face, it was also lame on left front leg. Vet thought the puppy had been playing with its surviving (and healthy) litter mate too roughly. He prescribed synulox drops which did not improve the condition. The pup went back to the vets during the week when it got worse and again the vet said he had been play fighting which she knew he hadn't because they had been either separated or supervised.

This time the vet said to carry on with synulox and gave some hibbiscrub to bathe the abcesses.

Still no improvement the vet took a swab to look under the microscope and prescribed a different antibiotic cefalexin.

The vet said that there was lots of bacteria under the microscope.

Looking for answers I suggested puppy strangles (juvenile pyoderma), she sent the vet the link and he said that it was not that because, he had seen a different type of bacteria under the microscope than to what strangles is (i forgot the names of the bacteria he mentioned).

However the puppy has every symtom and is not improving with antibiotic treament.

I told her vet the internet recommended predislone  but again he did not think it was strangles and said that steroid treatment would cause harm to his bones.

Jean is now not sure what to do, I have suggested taking him to another vets as he is getting worse.
She trusts her vet and is not sure what to do. The vet is set in his ways and is not willing to reconsider his diagnosis of an infection.

advice appreciated.
thanks

We see a few cases of puppy strangles (actually treating one currently) and lameness isn't one of the symptoms, and the swellings are always bilateral - ie not just on one side of the face. If it was strangles by now both eyes would be affected and the whole muzzle would have swollen up - best described as looking like a hippo - and there would probably also be lesions around the anus. However a second opinion might well help put your friend's mind at rest.

I forgot to add; the lesions with puppy strangles are invariably clear of bacteria, so if the vet found lots of bacteria then that very much goes against a diagnosis of puppy strangles ...

Limb  lameness can be one of the symptoms and my only case of puppy head/ juvenile cellulitis/ Puppy strangles was unilateral.
Most likely because I caught it extremely quickly, treatment started before the bilateral nature became apparent. The huge pustule was only on one side of his head but he was depressed and lame.... typical symptoms.

This case sounds more like staphylococcal pyoderma to me but I wouldn't rule out JC at this point.

I had a case of puppy strangles in a litter born last year. As jeangenie says, bacterial cultures taken from lesions are almost invariably negative.
However, it used to be thought that the condition was caused by a streptococcus infection but it is now known that the condition is due to a hypersensitivity/ over reaction of the immune system to ( perhaps) a previous infection  ( ? in utero)

The immune system goes haywire  and all lymph nodes are affected Swelling occurs around the muzzle, inside the ears, around the eyes and also the vulva and perineum. Joints are often painful due to the swelling in the lymph nodes in the groin. The swellings erupt into pustules, drain serous fluid and then crust over. There is a risk at this stage of secondary bacterial infection which is why antibiotics are prescribed.

The only effective treatment for this condition is steroid therapy, initially high dose but gradually reducing over the long period of treatment that this condition requires. Puppy cannot be vaccinated until a least 14 days have elapsed since the end of steroid therapy, In the case of our puppy. she developed a tiny lesion on the rim of one eye . This grew  but looked no different from a small spot at first. The vet prescribed eye drops which of course had no effect but by the time I took puppy back to the vet 2 days later ( by that time certain that she had 'Puppy Strangles' ) there were pustules allover her muzzle accompanied by swelling of her head and lesions pretty well every where

It was a very traumatic time. Getting puppy to take the tablets was very difficult as she had such painful swelling of her throat. She made a full recovery eventually but was with us until 5 months of age. She has minimal scarring -just a little line around the muzzle. She will not be bred from but I have advised her owners not to have her spayed for as long as possible ( because they intended to do so) as she will have 'softening' of the bones due to the steroids and will need as much oestrogen as possible to ensure adequate bone density.

There is a fair amount of information about this condition on the internet, including photographs of affected puppies. The condition is also called Juvenile Pyoderma/Cellulitis and Puppy Head Gland disease. It is often confused with Strangles in horses where is is a bacterial infection with upper respiratory complications.

Our puppy had normal appetite and energy levels even at the worst stages of the disease.

I can understand your vet's reluctance to prescribe steroids. They have serious side effects and must be prescribed with care. Also, many vets will never encounter the condition in a life time of practice. It is pretty rare, thank goodness. Get a second opinion by all means but I would say that if your dog has the condition it will by now have progressed to a stage where there can be no doubt and steroids should be given as soon as possible.

Thankyou for your input everyone.

In regards to the puppy, it started with postules on both eye lids, this developed into the lymp node infection on the left side, then an eruption of abscesses on the back. The vet said it was a certain bacteria not associated with strangles but I am unsure how he knew this by just looking under a microscope, no cultures were sent away for testing.
I have advised a second oppinion as the antibiotics are having little effect.
Puppy also has baldness around lips,

I really think you need to have a second opinion as soon as possible.

In the case of my little girl. the first vet I saw was sure puppy had an eye infection and treated accordingly. Puppy's condition deteriorated with pustules and hair loss around the muzzle. By the time I took her to see another vet, I was convinced of the diagnosis of 'Puppy Strangles' . Her head had swollen dramatically and I was fearful of obstructed airway.
As I said in my previous post, this condition is uncommon. Many vets will never encounter it in a lifetime of practice. But, the uncommon happens and perhaps you will need to be more assertive with your vet. Antibiotics alone will not cure this condition. Only immunosuppressive therapy will work. If this puppy has Puppy Strangles, he/she needs to start steroids immediately.

Yes I would definitely get a second opinion if you haven't done so already and demand them to listen!!

I had a nightmare litter once and an equally nightmarish vet!! Everything that could go wrong did!!

Firstly mum's waters broke at day 56 with no warning, then complete inertia...mind you wasn't surprised as she was huge and tight as a drum! Caesarean followed and 10 huge, and I mean HUGE, pups were safely delivered.

All was well until that night when mum vomited, completely out of the blue no symptoms at all, eclampsia!! Drove like a maniac to vets for calcium, bought collo cal, came home, mum and pups well and happy!

Day two night mum sick, completely out of the blue as had been checking for everything by this time, small red mark found indicating early mastitis. Took her to vet, he checked said it was fine, nothing there! Later that day I still wasn't happy, back to vet, again he said no problem. Still not happy back to vet again....seriously he was well pissed off by now but again he said no problem. By this time I was a wreck and doubting my ability to diagnose anything!!! I massaged the mark, compresses...you know the routine every hour during the night.

Then at 6.00am she was sick again, looked at her teat and realised I'd been right all along, very nasty red lump! Rang vet, different one thank god, took her in again, and this vet put her straight on a drip and said we might lose her as she had now got the start of gangrenous mastitis!!

She recovered enough to come home later that morning, we were bottle feeding the 10 very hungry pups whilst she was away. The vet told us we should let the pups feed from the infected teat, I queried it but he said they now encouraged it, she was on antibiotics, the pups would get them through her milk so no need to keep them off her.

Two days later her teat was black and starting to slough but I have to say it wasn't as traumatic as I thought it would be, by this time I was a wreck anyway so this was just another problem to be sorted. Mum was so stoic bless her and seemed well in herself, she was still feeding her pups and doing everything for them and seemed more her old self.

Anyway that evening I noticed one of the pups had a swelling on one side of his face. Back to vets and saw the only vet on call...the one who'd missed the mastitis! He said he thought it was fine...no surprises there...and gave pup an antibiotic injection just in case.

Within 2 days 8 of the 10 pups had swellings, most only one side but a couple both sides. Vets baffled but diagnosed 'probable strangles'. By this time I was certain they'd got an infection from suckling from the gangrenous teat and had gone back to bottle feeding. They had no other signs of strangles, no spots around the muzzle or anywhere else. The head vet convinced me to allow him to administer steroids as he said this was their only hope.
I insisted on antibiotics for the rest of the pups and at every two hourly bottle feed I bathed the abscesses with as hot boiled saline solution as I could bear. Over the next week, one by one the abscesses broke...mostly outside but occasionally inside the mouth which resulted in more trips to the vet. Two pups sadly died in my arms. One other pup was very poorly and had extra steroids but eventually pulled through with my constant care, I didn't sleep more than an hour at a time for two weeks or more, wasn't eating, and was an emotional wreck!!

But we ended up with 8 very healthy, hand reared, loving, chunky pups who went to wonderful homes and haven't looked back. I cried buckets when they left me, I still tear up now thinking of them all. We kept the boy that had been most poorly, he is now 45kg of pure gorgeousness and such a sweet boy. I'm not studding him, he's just my big soppy boy; he has recently been dx with a slight problem with one of his ankle joints and new vets think it was the steroids he had as a week old pup :( Thankfully the rest of the litter haven't shown up any problems so far!

Mum was retired and is now 8 and as happy as they come, she's my dominant bitch and sorts everyone out for me if they get too uppity :) She loves playing with the pups as they come and go, she's totally the loving, doting Aunt!

I'd never had a problem litter like this before or since. I thought I was a fairly competent breeder but this completely overwhelmed me, I couldn't think straight through lack of sleep and stress, I allowed a vet to overlook my concerns even though I 'knew' she had mastitis, I totally blame myself for what my girl and the pups went through. Never again will I allow this to happen! Btw I changed vets and the locum (as he turned out to be) was bundled off never to be seen again!

Our new vets are brilliant and I'm certain this would never have happened with them! They are a 30 mile round drive, but totally worth it!! I trust David with my own life as well as my girls and pups.

Oh and I asked for an autopsy on one of the dead pups, they died due to a severe anaerobic bacterial infection the exact same bacterium that results in mastitis!! Had I insisted on antibiotics the first time I took her to the vets for suspected mastitis they probably would not have had to go through all this!! Never again will I ignore my instincts!!

Anybody thinking of breeding for the first time would do well to read your post Hachiko. So pleased about the happy outcome.

Puppy Strangles/Juvenile Pyoderma/cellulitis strikes at around the time of weaning -normally 4 weeks of age and can occur up to the age of 16 weeks. I was fortunate that only one puppy in the litter was affected. I have heard of whole litters affected. It was very stressful dealing with a poorly puppy and watching anxiously lest the others develop symptoms. Furthermore, while I knew the condition is not infectious, I did not know whether it was better to tell the potential owners about the condition and have 'worried well' owners or to say nothing while the pups were fine. As it was, I advised new owners to look out for any spots around eyes or ears and to contact me immediately should this happen. Once puppies reached 16 weeks + I started to relax. All are fine at 10 months.

Thank you, yes it would make a good sticky for those considering breeding lol. How is the puppy now op?

I knew instinctively it wasn't strangles but in that situation, under so much stress, you rely totally on the vet. I do think he was trying to do the right thing; by then I'd complained about the locum missing the early mastitis and he was desperate to sort the pups out so we had as good an outcome as we could as, after all, it would look bad on his practice if we'd lost them all and, to be fair, he is a nice enough guy. I don't think they see many Juvenile Pyoderma cases so he erred on the side of caution. I looked into reporting the locum but its very difficult to get anything done about an incompetent vet, I heard from someone later that he'd done something similar at a town 30 miles away and had left there under a cloud too :(

You were lucky that only one pup was affected and so pleased that it recovered so well! Such a stressful time for you and I totally empathise with that feeling of doom when you're waiting for something else to go wrong, nightmare!

I've got a girl at 57 days ATM, the butterflies are starting to flutter in my stomach already lol. She was so hot yesterday bless her, we had fans on her most of the day but she's much calmer today thankfully.