Hi all I'm after some opinions/advice about my 15 month old bitch Molly..I bought her last year from parents that had well under 10 hip scores and elbows 0/0. i was hoping eventually in the years to come  to have a litter of puppies using my dog Sandy who has a score of 4/5 elbows 0/0 and his parents hips were both under 10,  I would like to keep a puppy from the litter. I have just received Molly's hip and elbow scores back, elbows 0/0 hips 4/22.. I was heart broken when I saw the hip results and Molly is beautiful one of the softest kindest loyal labs I have ever owned and really wanted to pass this onto other people to enjoy with her puppies and keep one for myself. Our vet has said there is no way I can breed from her as her score is far too high . I have read pages and pages about similar situations in other labs who have had scores high than the mean score and have produced puppies fit an healthy with lower hip scores.  I really am unsure what to do for the best the vet tells me I should get her spayed ASAP but I'm not 100% convinced this is the right thing to do.. Any advice re this mind teaser would be much appreciated.. X

Please don't even consider it. There's no shortage of wellbred Labradors out there with excellent hips, ones with good results from either shows or field trials. I bought a Golden Retriever once where the breeder had used a bitch with higher than average hip score. Her excuse was the sire was "a known hip improver". My dog ended up with severe HD and a score of 96 -way above his mother.

Assuming this really is an outstanding bitch (few Labradors need to be bred from as there are so many) then you have to look at the genetics which is what we are testing for.

HIP DYSPLASIA IS A BILATERAL CONDITION, so from a hereditary point of view there should be very little inherited difference between the hips. 

The one hip at 4 is very good, and such a large discrepancy on the other hip would usually point to environmental factors such as injury.

Are any litter-mates scored?  Have you looked at the scores of other ancestors further back for a pattern of usual scores.

Have you looked at the entire breakdown of the score (the various parameters).  Are the scores similar in the first three or four categories, where are the large numbers coming from.

have you looked at and read the document about the BVA scoring criteria, that lists what each number on each category means (how far off the ideal).

the polygenic nature of HD means that it all depends... as someone has said this looks more like an injury (could be at birth, or hitting a door frame etc) than HD however the scores don't differentiate and a litter means people will look at the score.  I've advised other people in this position to use a low scoring dog (and if you can check how the genes 'fit' so much the better) and then to score the progeny before having another litter - this was with a dog though.

the lack of knowledge over which genes are in which dogs is the problem seen by another poster - whereby where genes A, B & C are (for this example) necessary to produce HD, if the dog gives HD genes A and C (although expresses good hips) and the bitch has HD genes A and B you will have pups with HD, whether the bitch has a good or bad score :-)

hip improvers only work when the HD genes aren't fully complemented with the two dogs - pick another dog and the pups may well have good hips...

it's a lottery and it's true that there are a lot of labs about and a lot of people will pick on good scores, although it's not the full picture

The BVA have a newish booklet outlining how to use hip scores in your breeding program. This is taken from it :-

Ensure that all potential parents (both sires and
dams ) are hip scored
Evaluate the hip scores of parents, grandparents,
siblings and previous offspring whenever possible
Consider the score of the worse hip (on a perfectly
symmetrical radiograph) to be more representative
of the dog's hip status
Compare the dog's total score with the breed
median score (and compare the score of the worse
of the two hips with half of this value) in order to
assess the dog relative to others in the breed
Take the dog's age at radiography into account

Do not breed from any dog that shows evidence of
osteoarthritis (scores in parameters lower down in
the scoring grid)

The full article can be seem here :- http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/Interpretation-and-_use-of-BVA-KC_Hip-Scores.pdf

I think you need to read it all and then you can make an informed decision.
Aileen

Hi been reading through all your posts this morning and I can confirm that Molly's parents and grandparents all had scores of less than 10.. I can also confirm that when she was a young pup one of my other labs was running around with her and he knocked her clean off her little paws, the dog in question is my little boys dog a black lab and he is huge he weighs 43kgs, he's not fat just very tall and strong. The reason I mention this is because he did the same to me on the beach last year, accidentally knocked me over while running as a result I ended up in hospital with a slipped disc in my back.. I'm not a breeder I only have a litter every 2 or 3 years and the 2 dogs I use at the moment my 2 blacks have less than 10 hips.. Most if the puppies go to local people who know my dogs. I will check the hip number score later when I get home and post on here for your opinions. Very grateful for the posts so far..

I'm not a breeder I only have a litter every 2 or 3 years

You most definitely ARE a breeder, just one litter in a lifetime makes you a breeder, and apart from the hip scores, just wanting friendly pups really isn't a good enough reason to breed I'm afraid. Yes you are going the right way in ensuring health which is great, but responsible breeders only breed from bitches that also have proved themselves to be either good show dogs or working dogs.

Sorry Marianne I didn't word that very well. What I wanted to say is I
Not one of those people that have 3/4 bitches and just keep them purely for puppies/money and don't even bother with the hip scores..I just am not 100% convinced With Molly's results and our vet is insisting I get here spayed with me having dogs as well.. I dont want to put Molly thro something due to numbers figures not been perfect.. Hope that makes better sense x

regardless of whether you breed from this bitch, your vet cannot 'insist' she is spayed... that's your choice ... I'd change vets

Aileen i have read the document you suggested and i have read similar documents over the years but not the BVA one, this proves very good reading and i will check the scoring on Mollys cert when i get home later.

Know a dog in my breed with a similar score who has been bred from all pups have had well below the breed average scores and his parents, grand parents also had good scores.  I've actually used a son of his who again has a score well below the breed average, actually almost three times below.

I had a bitch about 10 years ago, who I wanted to breed from. She had an accident and needed to be stitched up, at the time she was 13 months. My vet phoned me when she was on the table to ask if I would like her hips done, being already under a GA. I said yes, well  the score came back 7-21. Her breeder couldn't under this, mum 2-2. Dad 5-3 with a breed mean score of 18 at the time. Her litter mates came back, 0-0 , 0-1 and 1-1. I was asked to take to another vet and have her hips x-rayed again ( we knew that they couldn't be submitted) Well this vet who at the time sat on the BVA panel said, good hips think your looking at single figures here, he didn't know about the first x-ray. We went bred from her. Her children, Grand children and now GG children have all had low scores. The position of my girl was different on the x-rays, one being legs pulled straight down the other out to the side. I now never use my own vet for hip scoring.

I too will have a read of the article.
Going back 3 lines my own bitches have had very good hip scores. The sire previous to that also had a very good hip score as did his line but the corresponding dam was not hip scored at all.
When one of the puppies from my daughter of that mating was also hip scored ( at 5 years old ) his score was very high much to my horror. My own bitch of that mating so his sister, has a good hip score but nothing like the excellent movement of her brother.
I still put that down to dog management ( running and sliding on laminate floors ) and his age at hip scoring. He will be 8 next year and never a sign of a problem with his hips/movement.
Of course there could be a rogue gene from the unscored background but at one time with no hip scoring to go by, we would have bred from those dogs with the best movement evident. I remain unconvinced that dog management/incidents  do not have a great affect on scores although also accept  lines can produce consistent scores to a degree. Having said that I am relieved my own lines ( so far ) have been well scored as I am well aware of the education of the general public in this area nowadays. If you had an excellent specimen of your breed from good lines of movement with a rogue score, this dog might be excluded from a breeding program despite being an excellent dog.
A very difficult but fascinating subject.

Mmm yes there is a big gap between left and right norberg and subluxation, right reads 0 for both on the right whole the left side reads 5 for norberg and 4 for subluxation.. I wonder whether it is worth getting a second opinion especially as my vet is insisting I get her spayed. Is it possible the left results could be damaged due to one of my big boy labs knocking her over, after all when he knocked me over in his daftness I slipped a disc in my back x

t decision is entirely up to you. Infact your vet cannot stop you breeding from your bitch if you decide it is what you want to do. Vets can advise but have no rights to insist on anything like that.

I can only repeat - change your vet they have no right to insist you have your bitch spayed, they can suggest but they need to abide by your decision

I think I'm gonna go in and ask the vet to show me the X-rays and discuss in detail. I have checked my other dogs hip scores over the many years and all of them have have even scores on the norberg angle ie 5/5, 0/0 or 0/1 Molly's is 0/5 would be interesting to see such a difference on the X-ray and you never know

There are so many labradors, and far too many of them are being bred from. To attempt to limit the huge amount of elbow and hip problems in this breed only the very best should be bred from. I don't know why you would even consider breeding from this bitch. You have the hip scores-- searching around for some way to interpret them to justify breeding from her is as bad as not bothering to get her scored in the first place. Why bother if you are going to ignore the results?

I agree with Zan.  In this economic climate, people should only be breeding from the best and with almost full waiting lists.   We would all like to think the worse of our vet if the scores don't come back as we wish, sometimes you just have to accept it wasn't meant to be.  

> Consider the score of the worse hip (on a perfectly
> symmetrical radiography) to be more representative
> of the dog's hip status
>

That is really quite opposite to what Malcolm Willis (acknowledged as a leading expert in HD) advised.

A champion bitch in our breed who had a very similar score to the OP's was the mother of only the second 0/0 scoring member of the breed in the UK.  Her littermates scored similar to her better side for both hips.

My concern is not to breed from her now i have made the decision as the scores are too high but to concentrate fully on understanding the scores and the HD. My vet is more than happy to take a second lot of xrays just to be sure the first were done correctly and then i will sit down with my vet and check to see if there has been any errors in the first set of xrays, once this has been iliminated we will look ata  programme of diet and excersise that will hopefully ensure she lives a happy and full life.

On the score sheet it gives the various features. 

Usually for such a high score on that hip there will be numbers in the aspects other than the first three or four first categories where functionally normal hips may have numbers.

This article http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/Interpretation-and-_use-of-BVA-KC_Hip-Scores.pdf (see especially the chart which tells you what state each number describes)

Thanks  i read that article last night, vet just wants to rule out if they have'nt xrayed correctly first.

Been reading this thread with interest. I remain very sceptical about the science and mind set behind the hip and elbow scoring system . Before I continue I'd like to say that I too had understood that a significant discrepancy between the hips would indicate injury/incident to the higher scoring hip and that the lower score is the correct one.

  Where is the evidence of hip  improvement since the inception of the scoring system ? Has there been a scientific study to test the effectiveness of the system in lowering the incidence of crippling hip/elbow problems across the breeds?
And what about these 'mean scores' ? Very few dogs are scored and of those who are, how many Xrays never make it to the BVA because it is decided that the score will be a high one and who wants that published for all to see? The mean score is artificial and in no way reflects the state of the hips within the respective breeds.
And, how do we account for the numerous dogs leading active lives with no pain or disability despite having 'stratospheric' scores ?
  And indeed, how do we account for dogs with low score developing such severe hip problems that replacement surgery has to be carried out. I mention this because I've heard of quite a few cases where this has happened , most recently to a friend of mine whose lovely girl was scored at the age of 15 months as 5/3. Now aged four she has just had hip replacements due to dysplasia. She has lead a normal active doggie life and has not suffered any injuries.

What I find most disturbing about the scheme is that it has lead to breeding to hip/elbow score. Over the years I've had a motley collection of females brought to meet my boy, all with low scores but sadly very poor temperaments and poor representatives of the breed. I have refused them. Temperament, health and type are my priorities and in my breeds there are far more important problems in all of these categories than just hips.
Of course , there are numerous scientific papers supporting the scheme, all written by vets, but they 'would say that wouldn't they '?!

Where is the evidence of hip  improvement since the inception of the scoring system ?

I know they have evidence in Sweden, and surely you only need to look at how the BMS constantly creep down to see that it IS having an effect. Take my breed Malinois as an example I know about. When I hip scored my first bitch she came back as 11 and the breed average then was 11. It then went down to 10 and is now 9.

Temperament, health and type are my priorities and in my breeds there are far more important problems in all of these categories than just hips.

I fully agree -but it is just as bad to disregard hip scores and do what the breeder of one of my Goldens did. She had a bitch who scored 30/30, had 4 litters from her, claimed the sires were known hip improvers -and my boy ended up with 48/48. You have to take the FULL picture into account. Too many breeders that produce dogs for working functions claim that all that matters is that the dog can work without problems, so don't score at all. Well my 96 scoring dog showed no problems at all until he was 6, so it would have been easy to assume his hips were fine. In fact it was a total shock that they were not.

In my own breed since hip scoring by responsible breeders has become universal by looking at the 5 year means it is quite apparent that there is improvement, and we certainly have not seen any scores as high as our highest of 61.

This appears to be the case in most scored breeds except possibly those who had very low scores in the first place.

As for how true a picture of the breed this is very breed dependent.

In my numerically small breed it is very representative with all KC registered litters being out of scored parents and at least 20% of the registered dogs are scored.

Certainly any vet that encourages non submission is guilty of misconduct.

You can find the 5 year mean scores in the KC health reports started a few years ago, and in various other places.