Got 10mnth old lab x pointer few days ago from couple. They got him from. Rescue center in England
Dagan was found at week old with his mum and couple litter mates they pups were week old and tails were docked I am bit shocked about tail docking thought it was illegal
Dagan has few issues but lovely boy my show pointer is lot happeer having company again

Docking is illegal unless you have a breed that is docked because it works.  And the vet would need to verify before undertaking the docking.

Of course, there are people who dock their own dogs, even though they aren't vets.  My own vet had a pet dog taken in for vaccinating, and he asked where the pup was bought.  He reported the breeder.  And I say breeder, but sounded like BYB.

Are crossbred dogs of genuine working owners and ancestry allowed to be docked?

I'm not sure which dogs are on the list TBH.

I do know of a litter of Weimaraners that were all docked by a vet.  He was struck off when it was found that the litter were sent to pet or show homes.  He did it because he knew the exhibitor.  And he was used as an example by the BVA.

> I'm not sure which dogs are on the list TBH.

Me neither but thinking about it, crossbred working Terriers can be docked, so why not working gundog crosses providing the breeder meets the legal requirements.

>Are crossbred dogs of genuine working owners and ancestry allowed to be docked?

In Scotland no, In England and Wales, yes: HPR breeds or crosses, spaniels of any breed or cross and terriers of any breed or cross. See here

Apologies; the rule in Wales is stricter than in England, with fewer types of dogs dockable.

Dagan his litter mates and mum were found in very bad condition in northhampton by rescue center. I am going to take him to my vet to get checked out I.am planning to show him in compionan shows but worried about docked tail.the couple we got him from were shocked about tail as well

Was his mum the pointer?

Mum was lab dad was pointer.
Dagan has face of lab body of pointer he is more Pointer than lab he's same height of my show pointer. Dagan jet black with white throw him

What about loopholes?  I'm a bit hazy on this but is there not a loophole where pups born in Ireland (where it is still legal I believe) are then brought over as pups to sell here?  All legal because their tails were docked elsewhere.

And of course, there will be people who do it themselves - I did work experience at a hydro centre whose owners also have working bomb detection dogs, and they stated very clearly that if the ban came in (this would have been the year before it did IIRC), they would dock any litters they bred afterwards themselves, if they couldn't get a vet to do it and I have no doubt they would.

> show him in compionan shows

That would only be the novelty classes & fun shows, as he is a crossbred..i am sure you know this but just incase :)

I.am planning to show him in compionan shows but worried about docked tail
In Wales and England You can enter him if the show isn't charging the public to come and watch, most fun shows don't charge the public an entry fee that I've been to but some do, like one by me next week is part of a car show where you must pay to get in so docked dogs should not be able to take part in the show. Not sure if it's diffrent in scotland

Phoned Scottish kennel club today they said. I can not show dagan at liscaned kc compionan shows but lady is looking in to it for me.sent for compioan register form today

The law in Scotland has a total docking ban however legally docked pups born outside of Scotland can be shown at ANY event regardless of entrance fee being charged or not. My legally docked dogs under English Law are regularly shown at SKC events for which the public are charged an entrance fee.

Now in England and Wales legally docked dogs can only be shown at events where the public have free admission and in Northern Ireland there will be a total ban on showing docked dogs.

Tis confusing :)

Dont forget people this dog is a cross(Lab & Pointer) so cant be shown in pedigree classes, regardless if he is docked or not :)

> they would dock any litters they bred afterwards themselves, if they couldn't get a vet to do it and I have no doubt they would.

I thought that was illegal, and something tells me it's a £20,000 fine.  You have to be a vet to dock.  It is against the law.

> Dont forget people this dog is a cross(Lab & Pointer) so cant be shown in pedigree classes, regardless if he is docked or not :-)

I'm not sure what the rules are for KC Companion shows (once Exemption) but in a general cross-breed or rescue class, I can't see why they would exclude docked dogs. Someone taking on a docked rescue can't be certain it wasn't done for medical reasons.

I'm not sure what the rules are for KC Companion shows (once Exemption) but in a general cross-breed or rescue class, I can't see why they would exclude docked dogs. Someone taking on a docked rescue can't be certain it wasn't done for medical reasons.

It doesn't matter what sort of show it is kc or not, pedigree or fun classes if any show other than one to show working ability in England and Wales if the public are charged to attend a dog docked after the ban can't be shown under the animal welfare act
"(9) A person commits an offence if--
(a)he shows a dog at an event to which members of the public are admitted on payment of a fee
(b)the dog's tail has been wholly or partly removed (in England and Wales or elsewhere), and
(c)removal took place on or after the commencement day.

(10)Where a dog is shown only for the purpose of demonstrating its working ability, subsection (9) does not apply if the dog is a subsection (3) dog"

> I can't see why they would exclude docked dogs. Someone taking on a docked rescue can't be certain it wasn't done for medical reasons.

the act doesn't allow medical reasons as an exception. Presumably to prevent lots of puppies having "accidents" that cause them to need docking!

> I thought that was illegal, and something tells me it's a £20,000 fine.  You have to be a vet to dock.  It is against the law.

It certainly is, that was my point - that there are people who are still willing to do it, if the vet won't.

In this particular instance I doubt they'd have needed to as their dogs are workers, and the injuries to tails can be horrendous (they do bomb detection in ships at Southampton, so lots of small spaces with hard corners/walls etc that tails get injured on from excited wagging - the adult lab they had when I was there had had to have his tail amputated because of it), but they certainly were willing to ignore the law.

There are so many docked dogs about that are just never found out about. It shouldn't be possible to see docked Rottweiler pups for instance, but you certainly do, quite frequently.

Forgive me if I am being stupid here but I do not believe either Labs or Pointers are/were ever docked so why should this cross breed litter have been docked in the first place. Even if they were docked by a vet (Doubtful) I can see no justification to docking this type of cross breed. Now if he were a sprocker or a terrier mix I could understand that legal docking could be possible if they were destined for working homes. I have yet to see a working lab or pointer with a docked tail whether legal or not. The breeders of this litter must have a sadistic streak to dock a litter of Lab crosses.
If there are some cross breeds that can be legally docked then the system should have something in place to exclude crosses from 2 parents who are not normally docked. I can see a loophole here.
Sorry OP not getting at you, you have done a wonderful job taking this chap on and whether you can show him or not I am sure he will make a wonderful pet.
Aileen

Labs are never docked but if the pointer parent was a German shorthaired pointer then yes, they are dockable if working dogs. If it was an ordinary English pointer then they were definitely illegally docked because neither parent breed is traditionally docked.

I have yet to see a working lab or pointer with a docked tail whether legal or not.

Sometimes it's  a case of the tail having been injured and amputated -or indeed the dog is hyper, gets bored in kennels, and chews its tail so much it ends up being amputated. If you watched the recent TV programme "Animal Heroes" you will have seen a docked black Labrador on it, and it's far from uncommon seeing docked Malinois army dogs as well, again often spotted on TV.

But these pups were 1 week old when found and rescued... none of them had "Damaged" their tails someone had cut them off !!
Aileen

And if they were legally docked they'll be microchipped.

No I was just pointing out that there ARE Labradors minus tails. :)

Merlot the AWB and DEFRA documentation does list the breeds that are allowed to be docked for working purposes. It also permits any crosses of these named breeds. Obviously a lab isn't on the list, neither is an English Pointer but any of the HPR breeds as the "pointer" cross could be legitimate.

Jeanjenie .. "if legally docked they would be chipped" this is also not necessarily correct.
I dock my litters and docking is done in first couple of days however I dont microchip until 7 weeks, the law actally simply requires the dog be chipped by a maximum of three months.  So the pups may have been legally docked but not chipped as under max age.

In this case however the indicators are that these pups weren't legally docked ... Why would someone go to the trouble to mate a bitch, get a vet to dock and then abandon or hand over pups to a rescue.

I wish someone would explain to me what on  earth is the difference to the welfare of a docked  dog if a charge is made to the public at the entrance to a show?

Mad world

Jo