Help! Has anyone had this problem?  The out of hours vet carried out a c-section although we asked why our FTCH ESS couldn't be given Oxytocin to help things along, the vet insisted on c-section.  Approx 11 hours after c-section (and 21 hours of the last naturally born puppy) our bitch gave birth - the puppy was dead.  The out of hours vet said the vet on call was totally to blame and refunded our money (obviously they assumed they would get the money back from our practice which uses their out of hours service as the vet on call that night was working for our vet but covered all the surgeries that used the out of hours).  We took her to our own vet during normal surgery hours and he scanned her and gave her a high dose of antibiotics etc and said we will not be paying for any of this and he would ensure we were paid out for the dead puppy. 

About 10 days or so later out bitch went down hill very very fast we thought she was going to die.  Our vet was away again so we saw a number of locums with her over the next few days, each one saying something different, one little girl even said she thought she had a pyo and wanted to spay her - she would not have survived anaesthetic let alone the operation - we said no way are you operating, she now weighed about 13kg!

She spent about 5 days in icu with the out of hours vet as they were a hospital.  When we collected her the nurse said "now you can answer this question however you like - What do you want to do about the bill?" Obviously we said we need to speak to our own vet when he was back as we think it was all down to the dead puppy decomposing in her causing toxins to affect her liver.

Our vet was completely on the defensive and blamed her illness totally on a minute liver reading which she had in the November of the previous year, saying that pregnancy and whelping can trigger an underlying problem and said we have to pay.  Our bitch was still very very unwell so we took her to a friend who is a vet and she has dealt with her treatment since.  She is now on steroids which seem to have stabalised things after having a liver biopsy and loads of other tests etc.  Our bitch was at the height of fitness having qualified and run in the 2011/12 ESS CHampionships.

The out of hours vet has re-invoiced us for the c-section (£891.00) as he is obviously not getting the money back from our vet and has now issued us with a court summons for the c-section and other fees.

Our vet has put the dead puppy through his insurers who have agreed to pay out £900 for it but are blackmailing us into signing a declaration which states that "We accept £900 in full and final settlement for anything now or in the future connected to the c-section performed on our bitch"

We haven't signed this, however our vets bill for the care and medicine they gave our bitch when she was ill plus the out of hours vets bill amounts to approximately £1100 (without the c-section) and we offered them the dead puppy money in order to finalise the matter (not that we really felt we should as we still hold them responsible - we probably cannot breed from her again and missed out on running her and qualifying her for the Championships again last year).  They refused this offer!

Our friend who has taken on her care (our total bill to her so far is in excess of £1100) says that it would be difficult to say what has caused her condition, it could have been an underlying condition although the liver reading was so minute it hardly registered or it could have been caused by toxins.  We are of the opinion that as our vet knows we compete with our dogs in order to breed the best and improve bloodlines, he had a duty to advise us that we should not have bred from her as if the liver reading was anything significant that breeding could be fatal!  This was her first and most probably the last litter from one of the best ESS bitches in the country.

IF anyone has some advice we would appreciate it!

Better go and fill in the defence form now and counterclaim - more money

Doggiedave1,

I would personally be as peeved and upset as you and be thinking that if 'A' had not happened neither would 'B' & 'C' and wish for A to take the wrap for everything.

Trouble is apart from the death of the pup which you have been offered a reimbursement for you really cannot prove that a c-section was not needed, or that the liver infection was caused by the pup being left in, we can feel it and we can want to blame a vet, but we can't prove it and each vet will act how they see fit in the situation, even your vet friend has said so much, so personally I would drop it, before you run up court costs and drive yourself mad and pay what is due now.

When we all breed we know things can go wrong, many of us have had very hefty vet bills as part of our breeding programmes, things go wrong, bitches die, pups die, and sometimes our bitches have to have emergency treatment running into thousands, we all accept this when we go into breeding as much as we hope it will not happen.

This has been a catastrophe for you from the birth to her championships, but I can't personally see how you can gain any more recompense other than the dead pup.

I'm really sorry for all that has happened, it's a nightmare!

So sorry for all you and your girl have gone through

To have left a puppy in a horn during a c/section is unforgivable, the vet had direct view and touch along each horn and those pups would be significant size bumps to be felt and delivered, they weren't kidney bean size, I would then blame any further health issues on that failure, the liver is put under pressure during any illness as it tries to clean the toxins from the blood, to blame an earlier raised liver enzyme to get out of taking responsibility is awful, if her liver was that damaged then carrying the pups and cleaning their blood as well as her own would have impacted on her health during the pregnancy.

I hope you get what you are due or the vets involved just carry the cost of their major mistake and leave you alone.

Before you do anything I would get some proper legal advice.
I really can't see how they can justify a puppy being left when they did the c section. I would say that the vet that did the c section was negligent, your own vet admitted this in as much as they said that you would not have to pay the fees.
The problem is it is your word against theirs.
Get some proper legal advice fast, don't let them frighten you, and don't sign anything.
Hopefully someone with some legal training will be along and be able to advise, or point you towards some help.
What a devastating experience.

Hi Carrington,

It isn't just our word against the out of hours vet, we actually have a letter from them putting the total blame on the vet that performed the c-section and confirming that they have refunded the money we paid for the operation as they will get it back through our own vets/the vet who performed the op.

So apart from everything else in this whole situation we really feel that as a minimum we shouldn't pay for the c-section as it wasn't carried out correctly and therefore we have a case of negligence against the vet.  The out of hours vets should be seeking recompense from our vet/the vet that performed the c-section. I don't think we are wrong in thinking this?

As you say it is difficult to prove either way so our offer of the £900 insurance money for the dead puppy being given to both vets to settle their accounts and save everyone a lot of time, stress and added costs, we feel is more than fair, however even though both practices would only be about £100 each out of pocket they refused this offer.

We are totally aware of the costs that could be involved in breeding but in the 25 years we have trialed dogs and bred from them we have never experienced negligence like this.

Thanks for your kind words, your opinion of the matter is exactly what we said to our vet, that if there had been an underlying problem then the stress of pregnancy alone would have brought on any problems, the fact is that she was perfectly fit and healthy throughout her pregnancy and during giving birth - it was only after the c-section and associated problems that she went downhill rapidly. 

The minuscule liver reading was in the November, she ran in the Championships in January, she was mated mid July and had her puppies end of September and at no time did she show any signs of illness - we would not have bred from her if there was any question or doubt that it could make her seriously ill to the point where she nearly died.

The only reason we took her to the vets in November was because she had qualified for the Championships but just seemed a little off colour, not ill.  Our vet ran a number of tests and the only one that came up with a slight reading was the liver test, but he said it was hardly anything!

Hi doggydave1,

I know this is very distressing for you, this is the way I'm looking at it. Have I got this right?

The out of hours vet said the vet on call was totally to blame and refunded our money
So you have had the £891.00 already refunded to you via the out of hours vet service?

Your girl then spent 5 days in ICU at the out of hours vet with a bill of £1,100.00 (still owing)

Your vet
Agreed to refund the price of the deceased puppy at £900.00 which is going through the insurance and they did not then charge you for continued treatment of antibiotics etc.

You have then transfered to a further vet (your friend) with a bill to date of £1,100.00 (Being at a totally different vet this amount is out of the equation.)

As I said previously, the only thing without a doubt you can prove and 100% claim on is the deceased pup, total incompetence!

The c-section was done (although a pup left behind) so one could argue that the c-section is not in line for a refund. (I agree your vet should have swallowed that one too, totally out of order of them)  However, you have already been refunded for that, so the out of hours vet cannot now claim it back again, absolutely fight for that it is obseured to ask for payment again once given a refund, what?  It is hard luck on their part not to have checked that your vet would agree to that.

Unfortunately, your vet did not agree to a refund for the c-section, but that is not your fault that the out of hours one gave you a refund, they'll have to live with it.

You need to pay the out of hours vet the £1,100.00 for the ICU treatment of 5 days, they are innocent in all of this and have a right to take you to court, so that needs to be paid. The re-instatement of the c-section they can whistle for they made a decision and it can't be changed, I agree stand your ground there.

I would complain to the the RCVS with all details right now, especially about the condition on signing for the £900 pup money, as it is nothing to do with what you may wish to fight for at a later stage, everyone agrees the pup died due to incompentence even your vet. 

However, unless the RCVS backs you up, I truly would not carry on anymore as if the vet won't budge it will be hard going to prove anything.

Even though I agree, it's a cop out, I can believe, (but not prove) that I doubt your girl would have gone through any of this if that pup had not been left in.

I hope that you got a fantastic pup from this litter it is the very least that you deserved.

So this is not a current litter you have on the ground? How is your bitch now and did her pups progress OK with their dam being so ill?

Hi Rhodach, The pups are 9 months old, and because it was probably her last litter we still have 3 of them - they are doing well. 

Hi Carington,  Sorry for late reply, had to see to dogs, then by time finished and eaten it was too late!

Yes you have it right - only the £1100 is split between the 2 practices I think it was about £500 at the out of hours practice and £600 at our own vets for day care etc when she was ill.

We will defend the claim re the re-charge of the c-section and let the judge decide what to do about the rest of it I think but we will contact the RCVS about the declaration because it is not right - they are purely paying out for the dead puppy nothing to do with the c-section.

Thanks for your time in replying sometimes it needs someone else away from the situation to look at it with fresh eyes for the route you need to take to become clear :-)

A qualified vet performing a section, should deliver all the whelps.  To leave any in, and sew the bitch up, is negligence.

I would want the vet struck off.

This subject has been discussed before when another OP had the same problem. Having a litter at the time I asked my Vet on the subject and was told that to leave a pup in at a C-section was gross negligence, and then a friend ( who was having one of my pups) came along to see the litter and her daughter-in-law who is a Vet came too and I asked the same question to her and she replied the same as my Vet. I would write to the RCVS. In the meantime perhaps you could explain to the Vets that as you are very unhappy with their treatment and the outcome, until the incident has been investigated thoroughly you are withholding monies and explain that you are writing to the RCVS.