Please could anyone message me if they could recommend a good chocolate lab breeder. Would really appreciate it guys so far this forum is full of some fantastic people. I'm so glad I joined. Thanx in advance. I'm hoping someone will know. Breeders being registered doesn't always mean they are good, for me I value recommendation means a lot to me. Hope you all understand my worries just don't want to get it wrong. Thanx

You need to be looking for a breeder of good labs which might happen to be liver/chocolate, not a someone who breeds for a particular colour.

It is indeed a sad fact that those who breed for a colour are often breeding for money because a particular colour is flavour of the month - those who breed for good ethical reasons would never be breeding for a particular colour - or am I being idealistic?

I'm going to put my foot in my mouth here.

If I was a Lab person (which I'm not as I like long coated dogs ;-) ) I wouldn't want a yellow one. Personal choice. So I would be looking for a black one first then maybe a chocolate one. If I had one and decided I wanted to breed it I would carry on wanting to breed that colour, so what is wrong with breeding for a particular colour? Why wouldn't I, or any breeder, prefer one colour to another, and therefore carry on breeding just that colour? I would still do all the health tests, check pedigrees to make sure I bred good dogs. Would that make me a bad breeder, just because I didn't want yellow Labs?

>If I was a Lab person (which I'm not as I like long coated dogs ;-) ) I wouldn't want a yellow one. Personal choice.

Me, I'd only consider a black. But not just any black; if it was a black with yellow or liver littermates that wouldn't be a problem. I'd want the litter to have been bred for health, temperament and ability, not colour.

Thanx lindylou,

That's what I thought some breeders prefer certain colours or may be their have had better experience with them. Doesn't make them bad breeders. Agree with you ;)

As labradors are (supposedly) primarily working gundogs, the fact that there has never been a field trial champion liver/chocolate labrador speaks volumes ...

As it seems difficult to breed liver with good pigment and colour and success is by no means certain so most good breeders will breed for good conformation, health and temperaments and take colour as it comes, the dilute colours are very hit and miss - it is I take it a dilute colour as I seem to remember reading that you can't breed liver to liver or am I wrong, if right I guess that is why they are like hens teeth in the working circles and not that often seen in the ring but I think that may be because the pigment is so often very poor and nothing to do with training problems that is, I believe, why they are not popular with working people.

Why wouldn't I, or any breeder, prefer one colour to another, and therefore carry on breeding just that colour?

In some breeds it works fine to just breed one colour, say Blenheim Cavaliers for instance, and I'm pretty sure Black Labradors. But in many breeds there are colours that DON'T do well just being mated to the same colour generation after generation, so you will get problems with all sorts -both looks and health. You only need to look at the masses of poor quality Blue Staffies or the many pet bred Chocolate Labradors with ugly pale yellow eyes. A good dog breeder doesn't consider colour in the same way that it is done in many other species such as cats or rabbits -colour is always secondary to everything else.

>Why wouldn't I, or any breeder, prefer one colour to another, and therefore carry on breeding just that colour?

As I understand it, a 'good breeder of chocolate labradors' wouldn't mate two chocolates; one parent would be black.

Perhaps you could go to a Labrador club show or one of the championship shows, that way you can have a look at the dogs in the flesh see which ones you like, then approach a breeder. That way you would have a better idea of what you like You can also have a chat to a few of the people and they might be able to point you in the direction of a good breeder who may have a chocolate puppy.

I think everyone has a favourite colour, whatever the breed.. which is fine... but as a breeder.. breeding for a particular colour 'can' come into play... for instance, my last litter and this litter, both Sire's have been dominant black...meaning the litter will be all black... which is what 'I' want... some breeders only have yellow and others have preference for Livers... 

Nova.. breeding liver to liver is not a problem.  I have a youngster out at the moment  from a liver/liver mating with cracking pigmention and the most wonderful eye colouring, and at 9months old has 3 Best Chocolate in Show at Breed club shows... however.. I will, when the time comes, put her back to a B/C dog. That is a personal choice, It has nothing to do with coat colouring, I do feel it helps maintain a good pigmention and eye colouring.

There are more and more Livers hitting the FT and WT side and doing well, albeit they are in fact mainly show bred, not working bred, but proof that they can do just as well as other colours, possibly few people like Livers.. myself included if I am honest.. I have livers simply because I keep the best from a litter.. If it is liver, so be it.. I would rather black, ;)

There are a lot of Livers in the ring, and do very well (ok, certain judges may not give a liver a 2nd glance but that's bye the bye, some don't like yellows' either)  and at 2 recent champ shows, 2 liver bitches took the BCC in their respective shows..

On the whole, liver pigmentation is usually very good.. eye colouring on the other hand can vary too much... and if it is wrong on a liver, it really is wrong.. ;)

Thank you Kayc, would seem it was another breed where I had read that liver to liver was not a good way to get quality liver pups. As to those in the ring I have not seen many and most that I have seen have very poor pigmentation the same applies to Newfies and you see very few of a nice rich colour most resemble an old ginger biscuit with light eyes.

Still that is beside the point everyone agrees that no breeder should breed just for colour that should be just a happy accident (or not) well one person thinks they should but perhaps does not mean as the primary concern, but if they do they are not IMO talking about a good and ethical breeder. Agree if you have a bitch of a particular colour you may look for a mate of the same but that would not be the main reason for choosing the sire, he would have to have many other required traits, genes and qualities. When you look to breeding a bitch there will always be a feature of that bitch you will want to improve on other than the colour and you will look to do that rather than the colour.

Anyway hope the OP has got the idea, find a good breeder first, put your name down for a liver pup should one be available - just they way you do if you want a particular sex, you ask and then hope that your wish will be answered.

Are you prepared to travel?  If so how far?  Where do you live? I know of an excellent breeder who does occasionally have choc puppies.

I was told (many years ago) that putting black to chocolate was ok but chocolate to yellow was bad. Chocolate to chocolate was never mentioned. I hope though that if you were going to breed you would look into the colours. I know that a lot of people don't so we end up with funny coloured dogs. I have seen a chocolcate lab with yellow splashes of colour in its coat. I didn't like it, so think that someone didn't care about the end colour, just the money. :-(

> As labradors are (supposedly) primarily working gundogs, the fact that there has never been a field trial champion liver/chocolate labrador speaks volumes ...

Are you sure?  A couple of years ago I worked briefly for a boarding kennels that also had working labs, and the owner/breeder was specifically working towards breeding champion chocolates (because they are so unpopular as workers, not a good reason I know but she wasn't a good breeder in other respects either) - just before I left she was about to set off to mate her top chocolate bitch with a field trial champion chocolate.  She did say he was the only one, but she definitely did say FTCH as that was her specific reason for wanting to mate the bitch with him.

Chocolate to yellow is not something anyone would specifically do for no 'good' reason... but if the dog required for your bitch was a y/b and the bitch was a c/b then the litter would be all black... If the dog and bitch complimented each other in every way and more, then there is no reason why you could not do this mating... There are 3 colours in Labradors.. but 81 genetic possibilites for coat colour .. a good breeder knows her dogs, what dogs she wants to use and why... and will know exactly what colours any of those 81 connotations will produce in their litter..

BB = black Lab, no chocolate gene
Bb = black Lab, carries chocolate gene
bb = chocolate Lab, no black gene

Yellow is produced by the presence of a recessive epistatic gene which has the effect of masking the the black or chocolate genes.
EE = no yellow gene
Ee = yellow carrier but apears either black or chocolate
ee = yellow Lab

So....
EEBB =Basic Black (BB)
EEBb =Black that carries Choc. (Bc)
EeBB =Black that carries Yellow(By)
EeBb =Black that carries Yellow and chocolate (Byc)
eeBB =Yellow (Yy) [does not carry chocolate]
eeBb =Yellow that carries Chocolate (Yc)
eebb =chocolate pigmented yellow ~ No Black Pigment (NBP)
EEbb =Chocolate (CC) [does not carry yellow]
Eebb =Chocolate that carries yellow (Cy)

http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html
This is a super page for helping understand the outcome of each colour 'pairing

scroll down the lefthand side and click over the coloured 'matings' and it will show you in the box on the right, what the litter colour will be..

The only thing we cannot plan is the % of litter colour... a litter of10 pups may have 9 black, 1 yellow.. or 5 black 5 yellow from a yb to yy mating.

A good breeder will know exactly what they are doing/planning and why ;)