Sorry, I'm going to bombard you with questions now :-/

As said in a previous post, my girl is almost 5 weeks in whelp. She is usually fed field and trial maintenance and as I didn't want to have her on this whilst pregnant or rear pups onto this I weaned her onto Royal canin adult when she came into season.

Its been almost 3 years since I had a litter and the price jump is ridiculous, not forgetting the carry on I had last litter trying to get puppy packs for my puppies before they went home rather than just sending them home with a voucher. I'm now wondering if I should try something else?

Does anyone use fish4dogs to wean their litters onto? I have one girl on this and she is doing great but have never actually used it for pregnant bitch or puppies.
What does everyone else use? What wouldn't you use and which makes do the best puppy packs?
TIA

Fish4dogs was one of the foods I used to use, but the change in recipe violently disagreed with my bitch, who would not eat for days, I lost one pup in first few days as she had little milk, and it was a job to get her eating again (had to resort to tinned food), and supplement pups until the milk came in.

This was a bitch who had been really greedy her previous litter, bu7t ate very unenthusiastically durign pregnancy when on thsi food (i put it down to pregnancy) and stopped eating altogether when she whelped, would only drink the puppy milk, the odd scrambled egg etc.

A friend had a similar experience with her bitch two months earlier, which I just assumed was a one off.

So what do you use now brainless?
Looking to order more food in the next couple of days as the royal canin is going down quick!
Don't want to have to change her any later than 6 weeks pregnant if I can avoid it so will need to order very soon to be able to wean her over gradually.

Back to Arden Grange and the very similar Simpsons.

Proplan seems to be pretty good and isn't too expensive if bought online.

I struggled to get Pro Plan breeder packs....I ordered them when pups were born and after 5 phone calls they came through when pups were 7 weeks.

I'm afraid I won't be using it for my next litter. I'll be looking around.....

Why do you need a special breeder pack? Why don't you put together your own as most people seem to do?

I like to have the pack with food and a token, I put other things into it such as a blanket, toy, poop bags etc i think it makes a nice gift to send them on their way.

Haven't you ever had breeder packs yourself?

Personally I feed what I think is best for bitch and pups, and just buy the food and toys etc to give to puppy buyers- it's not something I'd want to cut costs on.

Same here :-)

I had my bitch on CSJ puppy for the last two weeks and whilst feeding the pups, before that, CSJ That'll Do!

Weaning the pups was with a mixture of CSJ Puppy, Burns Puppy, and James Wellbeloved - all equal measures mixed together and soaked.   I also gave scrambled eggs, grated cheese, yoghurt, and cooked minced chicken.    They also got some small amounts of minced beef (frozen and thawed, but raw)

The reason I mixed the kibble was so that the new owners would be able to find at least one of them to continue feeding after the bags I gave them ran out.

My second litter, I just used CSJ puppy and James Wellbeloved - Burns had changed the recipe and I wasn't happy with it.
I sent the pups home with a 2kg bag of JWB puppy food each along with a puppy collar and lead, a toy and a nice smelly vet bed :-) 

Along with a feeding and care booklet and a leaflet on the breed, a leaflet on grooming and trimming, and a The Bite Stops Here leaflet etc.

Never bothered with breeder packs, I didn't see the point.  :-)

Who said I cut costs?

>Haven't you ever had breeder packs yourself?

Not commercial ones; when I've bought puppies I've been given a bag of food, a blanket, diet sheet, a toy, a small book about the breed and so on, and I've done the same when I've sold pups I've bred. They've never been supplied by a food company.

Did you appreciate the food?

Yes, definitely, because it meant we had plenty of what the pups were used to before we needed to stock up.

Then to my mind the breeder packs are worth having if it means the puppy buyers are pleased to have them, and it works out well for the puppy staying on the same food until they're settled.

Win win situation. :-)

But you don't need to get them from a supplier (you said "I struggled to get Pro Plan breeder packs....I ordered them when pups were born and after 5 phone calls they came through when pups were 7 weeks.") - just put them together yourself, buying the bags of food - online is usually cheaper than the shops - and all the other bits and pieces, then they're ready when you want and customised as you like.

Who said I cut costs?

Nobody -my point was that getting a free puppy pack isn't a good enough reason to change the way or what you feed, buying food for pups that leave (plus toys etc) is all part of the cost of having a litter.

I don't buy them.....you're doing the company a favour to use their food and recommend it to your puppy buyers.

It's a customer service for them to give you the puppy packs.

I only join the breeders club of the food I actually use, and I only use the one that suits the bitch and pups.

If the breeder pack was great and the food rubbish with the pups not doing well, I just wouldn't use it.

It's a customer service for them to give you the puppy packs.

Indeed -but I can do ten times better myself without the need to advertise on behalf of anyone. Larger amounts of food (of more than one kind as all litters will be reared on both raw and commercial to give the buyers a choice), more suitable and safer toys and chews etc. I also include combs and similar. Most commercial puppy packs seems to be a small amount of food or a voucher, endless leaflets (often saying the opposite to what I tell my puppy buyers), a plastic measuring scoop and maybe a plastic container, and maybe a toy if you're lucky. Once when I got some puppy packs from a company they included plastic frisbees as toys -for tiny Papillon pups LOL. Useless!!

Oh and not to mention the amount of advertising the puppy buyer ends up with! I keep getting e-mails from one food company since I bought a pup last summer. (In order to get the voucher exchanged for food, I had to give them my name, address and e-mail.) Some of them have included helpful "advice" on when to neuter and how to train your pup -advice I haven't always agreed with, so I am glad it wasn't my puppy buyers on the receiving end of it.

I agree; the food is good but I've seen commercial puppy packs and they're mainly rubbish; the food scoops aren't much help and you mainly get advertising leaflets. A sensible breeder can put together a far more useful package.

Unsubscribe to the emails....simples :-)

I've bought in quite a few pups myself and had breeder packs with most of them, I've never been hounded by emails, mail or phone calls.

I don't know which supplier you're referring to but it obviously wasn't one of the better ones!

Each to their own I suppose.....but I think you're probably in the minority.

I'm feeding my girl Arden Grange and Nature Diet and she's looking really well   Last time she was on Fish4dogs when we didn't know they changed the recipe and she looked like a rescue so will never use it again.

So I might give arden grange another go then....I reared my 2 first litters on this and I was happy but didn't breed for a while so went to RC. I read the thread about food prices going down earlier and a lot of people have said they would never touch RC. Now I'm doubting myself and not sure if I'm doing the right thing using it??

Why is everyone so against RC can I ask?

Think Ill stay clear of fish4dogs then. Looking into proplan now but never used it, have heard some good reviews though!

> Each to their own I suppose.....but I think you're probably in the minority.

I think most of the good brends now primarily will give vouchers to go with pups due to the cost of carriage for the puppy packs and abuse by some breeders (not giving them on to puppy owners, claiming for larger litters than born etc).

I did prefer to have small bags from the food companies I used oprimarily for brand recognition, but I give leaflets and weigh out food from the large bags.

> Why is everyone so against RC can I ask?
>
>

There are foods with better ingredients at better price, but some people's dogs get on great with it, mine don't, I can get away with feeding about 25% mix of it when I have won bags at shows, adny more and they have horrible yellow sticky poos.

The last lot of breeder packs I had contained weaning food for my pups and vouchers for a free 3k of food for the puppy buyers. I had 6 pups and had 6k of free food.

I think that's worth filing in a form online.....

The last lot of breeder packs I had contained weaning food for my pups and vouchers for a free 3k of food for the puppy buyers.

There's a problem straight away -the buyers need to go and collect the food, usually from a petshop, but will need some of it in the meantime. So you still need to give them some.

Unsubscribe to the emails....simples :-)

That's not the point though, is it? You can't do it for anyone else. Say a novice puppy buyer gets just one of the mails, and it says something you really don't agree with, such a neuter at 6 months -and the advice in the mail is followed as they trust such a wellknown company. Wouldn't you rather they'd never had that mail?

>The last lot of breeder packs I had contained weaning food for my pups and vouchers for a free 3k of food for the puppy buyers.

Vouchers are no good. What does the puppy eat in the meantime? You need to send the puppies off to their new homes with enough of the food they're used to eating to last them until the new owners can stock up.

I used RC reproductive starter[may have changed its name since]from 6 weeks pregnant and for pups till 8 weeks old, loved the tiny pieces, post whelp Mum was fussy and got extras but always had the RC on hand to pick at, finished off the bag on Mum, she kept her weight better than her first litter which she had before I got her.

Puppy I wasn't keeping went home on RC mini puppy which she had been on for 4 weeks before she left me.

> which makes do the best puppy packs?
>

I don't understand why this should be the decision factor.  If people use this as a yard arm it doesn't sit comfortably with me.

>

In my experience puppy buyers usually take the advice of a vet, not a leaflet from a food company.

I'm not sure they'd take any notice of me either, it's their puppy and if they want to neuter early that's what they'll do.

One of my puppies went to a home with children, they asked my opinion about neutering before her first season, and I explained it wasn't a good idea and it was better to wait etc. They went ahead anyway....because the vet said it was fine and the children wouldn't see the "mess" from an in season bitch.

I also always make sure my puppies leave with enough food to tide them over for a few days or so.

Although most have been on my list and are fully aware which food I'm raising the pups on, well in advance of collecting them.

Puppy packs are not just the reason I choose my food, if that was the only reason then I would now have put her on RC in the first place.
Its just nice for owners to go home will a fully sealed bag of food IMO rather than a bit f food in a carrier bag when they dont know for sure if theyre picking up the right food in the shop.
When I said puppy packs I meant the small bags that I can buy to send with owners?
I always add a piece of vet bed, toys, brush/comb, etc.etc. in my puppy packs but to me the most important thing is the food since that puppy ideally needs to stay on that food the first week in its new home rather than more stress.
Ive noticed a lot of places dont do these small 2 or 3kg bags. Or maybe I just havent noticed them?
Couldnt see any on fish4dogs website, just checked out simpsons and they do them. Must say after reading the ingredients I'm swaying towards simpsons.

I agree its lovely having a puppy pack from the breeder a sort of birthday present of things to open
However am I the only puppy buyer who always asks the breeder in advance what she feeds and purchases a bag of food before collecting my pup ?
NOt saying you shouldnt send pup home with some food for the first few days. I guess on way you could do it is buy a nice container and put instructons and food in that for your buyers

>Its just nice for owners to go home will a fully sealed bag of food

I agree; I buy them, either online or from the pet shop. After all, a bag of food is only a tiny fraction of the price of a puppy!

>Ive noticed a lot of places dont do these small 2 or 3kg bags. Or maybe I just havent noticed them?

Almost all foods come in 1½kg, 2kg or 3kg bags: at least that's what I've noticed when looking around the pet stores.

ETA: Royal Canin says it comes in Packaging size: 50.0 g, 1.0 kg, 4.0 kg, 10.0 kg, 15.0 kg bags.

>Ive noticed a lot of places dont do these small 2 or 3kg bags. Or maybe I just havent noticed them? Couldnt see any on fish4dogs website,

You need to click on 'View Sizes'. ;-) There's also their puppy pack which might be useful?

Thanks, I've decided to give Simpsons a go. Ordered the salmon and potato puppy food so hopefully she will do well on it.

Good to see that they do the smaller bags that I can buy for puppies to go home with too :-)

If you go for Simpsons do register for their breeder scheme...
not sure if they do packs as such but price of food for you is better :-)

tiegold - I used to use F4D with my pups, and for Mum, but similar experience to Brainless, the change in recipe resulted in it being ditched - caused horrendous stomach upset for my bitch, who already was limited in what she could eat. This time I will also be using Simpsons Salmon and Potato Puppy for pup rearing. Mum is doing amazingly well on the adult version, after a year of trying to find something in addition to tinned Chappie that she can tolerate. The added bonus of the Simpsons is the retail price of the bags is around £15 cheaper than the F4D - they do a good Breeder Scheme discount too.

I've completely changed my view on feeding Mum during pregnancy. This particular bitch was fed AG and F4D (her normal feed) during pregnancy with the usual increase towards the end. Last year due to stomach upset and resultant intolerances she was fed throughout pregnancy on tinned Chappie with the addition of fish and boiled eggs, plus veggies. Have to say both she and her puppies did extremely well on it. Do you actually need to change her regular feed? Personally in future I will be sticking with the girls' normal feed (one 50:50 tinned Chappie and Simpsons Salmon the other Skinners Duck & Rice), adding in some of the puppy food when necessary, just to get them used to whatever it is I'll be feeding the pups to ensure no problems should Mum scoff leftovers ;-)

Simpsons also sell small bags you can buy to give to pup owners, plus do a 'pup pack' voucher scheme on a par with the Arden Grange scheme. Delivery was next day :D

Edited: Sorry, just read the last few posts and see you've already gone with Simpsons. Don't think you'll be disappointed. As someone else has said, do register for the Breeder scheme, there's a good saving to be had :-)

Thanks everyone, Trailist I just wanted to make sure she was getting everything she needed from her food so thought Id change her to a better food.
Shes a pig and will eat anything and usually does well on most things, however, she is showing quite a lot already so Im expecting a large litter, since she only ovulated 5 weeks today! Her ribs have sprung right out, she ha a definate podge and her waist is completely gone!
Never had a bitch show this early on her first litter so am worried about the amount she is having, hoping for no more than 8!! Would much rather quality over quantity!
Im surprised that Ive had a text from simpsons today tp tell me my food will be here tomorrow with options to change the date etc. Very impressed, I always order my food online and Ive never had this before!
Registered with the breeders scheme, thankyou very much everyone. Might actually stick with this if my girl does well on it :-)

Personally in future I will be sticking with the girls' normal feed

This is what I do as well, having almost lost a bitch due to her being put onto the puppy version of the food she was on. She lost so much weight from stomach upsets I honestly thought she'd die.

Oh crikey :-( That confirms my decision then!