I'm a little unsure where the law stands in this particular case so I just want to check.

My friend has just pulled up with some dog food for me, and two of her dogs on the back seat.  While we were unloading the food from the boot, the neighbour's cat had gone under her car and ran out again, spurring one of the dogs to chase.  She managed to get through the dog guard and out of the boot to do it.  No harm done.  Lots of shouting on both sides, the neighbours threatening to sue her if the cat is hurt and her shouting back about their cat tormenting her dogs.

When the dog jumped out, both dog and cat were on public property - road/pavement.  But her dog chased the cat into its own front yard (no gate and no fence between my drive and theirs so she didn't jump anything to do it).  I didn't see the cat go but my friend says she ran into their back garden, and she had her dog back within seconds.

So where does my friend stand on this?  I don't believe the neighbours will actually do anything but I will be popping round later to check on the cat and I would like to know the facts before I do, as I expect they will be complaining further about the incident.

I expect it won't make any difference but just in case - this particular cat is a nuisance.  She's often under my car, she's gone under it while I've been loading my dogs up before.  All my dogs go to the car on leads anyway, but twice now I've opened the front door and she's been sat right in front of us just a few feet away.  Several times I've pulled onto the drive and she's been sat on my gravel watching me while the dogs bark at her in the back.  She used to sit on the neighbours' wheelie bins looking down into my back garden at the dogs, until I got some wood up to block her view.  As I say I expect that won't have any bearing on the situation at all but I thought it worth mentioning.

The cat is the property of the neighbours. I would imagine that if your friend's dog had injured/killed it then they would be responsible for that ie vet's bills etc just as she would be responsible if the dogs damaged anything else belonging to them. The dogs should be under control whether it was a cat going past, a cyclist, a child with an ice cream etc etc

>but twice now I've opened the front door and she's been sat right in front of us just a few feet away

I have to make sure that there are no joggers etc going past my house/the postman arriving when I get Tara out of the car etc etc - no difference in my view. Part of being a responsible dog owner :) There is no law preventing cats roaming unfortunately.

No idea what the law says tho' :)

I would imagine that if your friend's dog had injured/killed it then they would be responsible for that ie vet's bills etc just as she would be responsible if the dogs damaged anything else belonging to them.

No. In law, cats are counted the same as any wild animal, so you can no more be expected to pay for your dog injuring or killing a cat outdoors, than you could if it was a wild rabbit or rat.

That's what I thought.  The bit I'm not sure about is the location of the incident - as I understand it, anything that would happen if, say, one of my dogs got hold of one of their cats on my property, I would not be held accountable for but with this starting on public property and then going onto the cat's owner's property (well, the council's - does that make any difference?) I wasn't sure where things stood.

> In law, cats are counted the same as any wild animal

Cats are regarded as owned property ie if someone stole them or caused wilful damage to them. The 'wild animal' bit is to do with the acknowledgement that you can have no control over them (out of the house) so that you can't be sued if they cause a car crash etc nor do car drivers have to stop if they hit them.

> if someone stole them or caused wilful damage to them

Neither of which is applicable here as this was a complete accident.

> as this was a complete accident

In your opinion (and I'm not saying that I disagree with you :) ), but the owners could sue for payment of vet's bills etc as they would try to prove that there was negligence and the dog's owner was responsible. I would think that there would have to be a recorded history of frequent such incidents before any case was successful tho' :)

I'm not saying that this should/would happen :). Anyway, it would be a civil matter, not criminal.

It would be the decent thing to do if the cat were injured, if your friend paid the vet bill. But it isn't really enforcable.

What worries me more here is the fact that the dog managed to escape from the car. :-( what if the cat had run across the road causing a serious accident? The cat's owner would not be blamed, but your friend would be. I thin that you should quietly have words with said friend and see if a better caged environment might not be better to have in the back of the car. And teach the dog(s) not to come out unless commanded to do so, once the cage door is opened.

Ordinarily the dog does only come out on cue, but ordinarily there isn't a cat running out from under her car!

We've spoken already about her side of the incident and she is going to get better security measures in place to avoid anything like this happening again.  The cat at least is fine, I've seen it again since.  So it's hypothetical at this point :-)

There was that court case in the mid 90s where a Bullterrier killed a cat, and it was ruled that this is something dogs DO by nature. So the dog and owner got off scot free. I remember it as my ex was doing DDA stories for the dog press at the time. Trevor Cooper defending the dog.

It may all change soon though, if England follow's Scotland in stricter dog laws, then you could be prosecuted for your dog attacking any animal, including wild ones.
So far I'm not aware of anyone being "done" for their dog killing a wild animal, but there was a dog pts for injuring a cat up in Dundee, even the cats owner didn't want the dog put down.

> but there was a dog pts for injuring a cat up in Dundee, even the cats owner didn't want the dog put down.

Oh my god, that is terrible.  The cat was injured, and I accept that's awful for the cat owner.  But to kill the dog?  Sorry, hope that law is not enforced in England.

It certainly made everyone sit up and take notice, perhaps that was the intended effect ?.
Even if an animal, wild or trespassing pet, is injured or killed in your own garden, you can be held to account.

I had to get insistent with my old neighbours when the law came into force, as their young Lab would often come up the stream into my garden. I was not getting into trouble because of their inability to keep their dog on their property, and it was chasing my hens.

This is very interesting.  In Ontario, Canada, where my OH was a Conservation Officer, owners of dogs who harass, injure and/or kill wild animals can be charged, fined and face other consequences.

As regards the cat/dog scenario, some places have cat confinement by-laws but most don't.  Most do have leash laws for dogs.  It's hard to know where responsibility would lie as I doubt our OPP would get involved unless there was a human injured.  Certainly roaming dogs threatening livestock in rural areas can be shot, hence the bionic leg on a Lab I know.  Hence the death of a Golden Retriever I know, both shot by farmers.

I agree a more secure setup in the vehicle is a priority.  Where possible death to the dog is a reality I don't like to trust to training.  As the OP says, the cat was unexpected.  It's very hard to proof a dog against a suddenly appearing strange cat.  Most dogs I know won't chase their own cat but will a strange cat.

I hope the worst fears here never happen.  Maybe a heads up for all involved?

> As the OP says, the cat was unexpected. It's very hard to proof a dog against a suddenly appearing strange cat.

I am hoping any future legislation realises this... it would be totally unfair otherwise.
You might as well make it a criminal offence if a cat kills an escaped hamster or pet mouse. Small pets like these often escape despite their owner's best care and vigilance. Who is at fault then - the owner of the mouse, or the owner of the cat?

We have a person let her kitten out even after it was attacked by a neighbouring dog, knowing that it still goes in the garden. It would be awful if the dog was found to blame for what i feel is owner negligence.

We have a person let her kitten out even after it was attacked by a neighbouring dog, knowing that it still goes in the garden.

That's how I met the bionic leg Lab.  His owners continued to let him run loose after he'd been shot and had his leg repaired successfully.  He followed me home 4 or 5 times when I was cross country skiing.  I learned about the bionic leg from another person he followed.  Some people don't learn, even when great sums of money must have been involved in the Vet care.  Though it was my Vet who fixed the leg and knowing him, he probably did not charge what it cost him.

I have to ask though, person lets the kitten out in her Own garden?   In the OP the cat wasn't in it's own yard.  That would make a difference here.  Other people's dogs better darn well stay out of my yard.  Which is completely fenced but one big, big dog did have no trouble jumping it.  The fence went higher.

She let's it lose out her front so it can poo elsewhere, can you imagine if  we let our dogspoo in others garden, cat owners do wind me up a bit. I have cats but they are indoor cats with a outdoor house.

if England follow's Scotland in stricter dog laws, then you could be prosecuted for your dog attacking any animal, including wild ones.

I would feel awful if my dogs injured/killed a cat as I am sure most people would but prey drive is strong in a lot of breeds. I have a friend with terriers and they have killed a cat that came into the garden. Would this law stretch to incidents on your own property?? Be awful if it did, be awful if you couldn't risk letting your dog off in it's own garden because a cat that is free to do as it please's may venture into your garden. A lot of breeds have been bred to kill small furrie's and although not used for this purpose generally now, the law may now expect that because it is no longer acceptable in the modern day that dogs should now switch off this instinct.

Also if this law did come into effect why could a dog owner potentially get prosecuted for their dog killing say a wild rabbit but the cat owner who large moggy who drags one through the cat flap doesn't. 

You can certainly end up in trouble if your dog attacked a cat on its own property, that was the main point of the Scottish legislation, I have no idea if that will be the case if England follows suit.
Cats wouldn't get you into trouble for killing wildlife, as this is the Scottish Dog Control law, so cats don't come into it.
When the law was initially put forward, it was a lot stricter, it said, for instance, that you could be prosecuted just for having a dog who caused alarm by its appearance !, thankfully the ministers who looked over the legislation pointed out it was hardly " deed not breed " with that little gem.

You can certainly end up in trouble if your dog attacked a cat on its own property

Sorry Celli I didn't see you other post stating this. I think this is awful. So what are people to do who have terriers and other high prey drive breeds. Will they have to muzzle them or take them out on a lead in their own garden just in-case they kill a wild rabbit?? (Not asking you these questions directly Celli just putting my frustration out there!)

Cats wouldn't get you into trouble for killing wildlife, as this is the Scottish Dog Control law, so cats don't come into it.

I understand that but my point is... a dog is a pet, a domesticated animal, some of which have high prey drive. A cat is a pet, a domesticated animal a lot of which have high prey drive. So sounds like we need 'Cat Law' why should one domesticated pet be expected to control it's urges but another one can get off scott free?

I know, it does appear to be unfair, although the law is there regarding wild animals, it's a completely different matter as to wether anyone would " grass you up " if your dog caught and killed a rabbit.
Most people are blissfully unaware of the law and would be unlikely to act, and I would hope, any attending police officer ( if they turned up at all ) would use some common sense, but in all honesty, I really can't see anyone coming out because your dog caught a wild rabbit , if, on the other hand, a dog broke into a rabbit hutch and killed the rabbits, that might be viewed differently.
Even then, a DCN would be served, which means the dog would have to be muzzled when in certain areas,kept on a leash, or kept away from a specific area, attend training classes.
I really don't know what happened with the dog who was pts in Dundee, there was word on the grapevine that the dog had previous, but I haven't a clue if that was true or not, it was all hearsay.

> Most people are blissfully unaware of the law and would be unlikely to act, and I would hope, any attending police officer ( if they turned up at all ) would use some common sense, but in all honesty, I really can't see anyone coming out because your dog caught a wild rabbit

There was a lot of confusion about this after the ban on hunting with dogs. Wild rabbits, grey squirrels and rats are considered vermin, and are exempt from the ban. If your dog kills the occasional one on a walk, it's no big deal - anything more needs the landowner's permission (or would be considered poaching). Hence why working lurchers and terriers is still permitted.

It is confusing, I wonder sometimes if thats not deliberate lol.

I had a look again at the actual wording of the law, it says, if someone feels apprehension that an animal is in danger from an out of control dog, then you can be in trouble.
There was a public consultation, of which I took part, and it was stated by the minister doing it, that "animal" includes wild ones too.
I just hope its one of those laws thats there, but is seldom acted upon.

I had my cat killed by 2 dogs in my front garden, phoned the police ,RSPCA nothing I could do about it,never had a cat since. But let's just say that after the neighbour's moved and I seen their car at the supermarket it had a lovely mark all along the side.O dear

Our animal laws are a bit of a mess- in part because they have evolved over such a long time in a piecemeal way- there are contradictions and loopholes. There is also ill conceived and badly/hastily written law, like the DDA.

With respect to dogs with high prey drive, I guess unless they are to have a working function, or owners have the time to train in suitable games and activities to accommodate the drive, it is perhaps time for debate as to what place they have in our society.

frenzy,

do you mean that the mark along the car had been caused by the accident?

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">frenzy,<br /><br />do you mean that the mark along the car had been caused by the accident?

Ha ha, You don't think frenzy is really going to answer that do you ! lol

> With respect to dogs with high prey drive, I guess unless they are to have a working function, or owners have the time to train in suitable games and activities to accommodate the drive, it is perhaps time for debate as to what place they have in our socie

The thing is, although some breeds have a high prey-drive, prey-drive itself is a general canine trait, yes, it would have been selectively bred for in specific breeds and bred out in others, but even so any dog can exhibit prey drive.

One of the reasons I chose the breed I have (English Mastiff) is the lack of prey drive, however several things need to come into effect in order for that lack of prey drive to not be an active part of his adult temperment. He's been trained to ignore 'prey' and luckily enough he never really did show much of a prey drive to begin with. However, I don't think it would have taken too much training (or LACK of training), in order for him to feel the need to chase small furries.
Just as any behaviour can easily be trained in with reward-based training, many dogs can find that they are internally rewarded by the chasing of things, so lack of intervention in what could be puppy play, in chasing things because they run, can soon become something more serious. My dog would chase cats that came into the garden, he did want to only play, but if that behaviour had not been dealt with, it could have easily evolved into something else. I do now have a dog that appears to have NO prey-drive, but I have put an awful lot of effort into training him to ignore 'prey' - nature or nurture?
Despite 'my' breed having a lack of prey-drive, in my several years of research into them, I have found out that some individuals have exhibited prey-drive.

Then there is my last dog, a rescue mongrel - one heck of a prey-drive, to the point I would check there were no cats in my garden before letting him out or he'd try to get them.
If specific breeds were to ever be targeted for any new laws/restriction what about the mongrels that can chase, catch & kill animals with the tenacity and drive of any pure-bred?

I think we need to remember that any canine trait can be exhibited by any dog - whatever the breed, the fact that a dog is pure-bred does not guarantee it will/will not behave in a specific way, it just gives us a heads-up as to what will be the most likely temperment IF bred, socilaised AND trained properly  :)

Quite, we have to remember that basically a cat, dog ferret, is a predator, and will act like one, sometimes despite or because of lack of training, or pure instinct kicking in before we have a chance to forestall it.

Dogs by their very nature are hunters, some breeds are simply better/more driven/more efficient/capable of it.

Ml, I do agree, however I guess, once again, it is down to good breeding practice and careful selection for traits that are more in keeping with the function as pet. So if you want a pet terrier you don't want a super sharp working type, with an aversion to being handled, and an inclination to kill every cat it sees.

I guess I'm feeling a little disgruntled as I keep seeing clients who have bought 'family pets' without proper forethought and research- think hound mixes kept out in kennels and bred for working, sold to pet homes......

I should also add that dogs are selectively developed with greater or lesser hunting instinct, I would say that innately they are scavengers, which is not quite the same. Cats as obligate carnivores obviously come pre-equipped with a strong prey drive.

> it is down to good breeding practice and careful selection for traits that are more in keeping with the function as pet. So if you want a pet terrier you don't want a super sharp working type, with an aversion to being handled, and an inclination to kill every cat it sees.

Oh yes, very true.

> I guess I'm feeling a little disgruntled as I keep seeing clients who have bought 'family pets' without proper forethought and research- think hound mixes kept out in kennels and bred for working, sold to pet homes.....

I don't blame you for feeling that way. The amount of problems people (and the dogs they choose) would avoid if only they bothered to research breeds and breeders before getting a dog :(

> I should also add that dogs are selectively developed with greater or lesser hunting instinct.

Yet, predatory drift is a real thing. As we know, hunting is a sequence of behaviours - find, chase, catch, kill - different breeds of dog bred to have different parts of that sequence or the entire sequence. When 2 dogs are simply playing together the risk for predatory drift is increased by size difference and increased further if one of the dogs is a breed which is bred for the 'killing' part of the sequence. Just the fact that the dogs are dogs is enough to know that predatory drift is a possibility, given the right factors.
I personally think it's foolhardy to think that any dog - despite, it's breed, training or it's actual apparent lack of prey-drive - is trust worthy around small animals.