I am just having a discussion on the subject of are normal behaviourists less effective that a vet behaviourist ?

My view is a good reputable behaviourist should be able to assess and work with an owner on a plan to solve a dogs issues in most circumstances without the need to provide medication to solve or manage the behavioural issues. Apart from perhaps the most extreme behavioural issues where medication may be used or in deed if the dog is deemed too dangerous or is having an impact on its quality of life then the euthanisia route should be considered. That must be a decision I think based on consultation with all parties with the owners . Another persons view is that a vet behaviourists are far better and that is the route people should take.

I disagree with this view as I feel medication is a very last resort route and are vet trained behaviourists any better than somebody who specialises in dog behaviour and has formal training and belongs to a reputable organisation that only practices  positive reward based solutions. And of course I bet the vet behaviourist fees are far higher !

Just wondered what other people's views are on this ?

Well I would go for the one who is BOTH a vet and a behaviourist any time -and I would say it saves money as otherwise chances are the non vet behaviourist will just send you back to your normal vet. It's NOT at all a question abut medicating for the behavioural issue, it is a question of the vet behaviourist being able to FULLY assess the dog including its state of health. One of the top people in the country is Professor Mills at Lincoln and he is both. It's about 7 years ago now but when we saw him it was £99 plus unlimited phonecalls afterwards. (I just checked and it is now £120 per hour for the first 2 hours, then £90. Free e-mail and phone support. Discount if the case can be used as a teaching case.) Professor Mills found what none of the trainers (not behaviourists) OR vets I had already seen had found, that my dog was biting because he was in pain. Not even my normal vet found that and we had NO idea ourselves. I'd definitely go back there if I ever had to.

That is interesting but if your own vet missed it then there is the question that he was lucky to have been able to solve it or do you think because he had the link with the behaviour side as well only he would have been able to solve the problem ?

But how many behavioural issues are down to pain or illness as alot of rescue labs that come through are down to bad ownership and lack of suitable training and understanding of basic dog behaviour.

That is interesting but if your own vet missed it then there is the question that he was lucky to have been able to solve it or do you think because he had the link with the behaviour side as well only he would have been able to solve the problem ?

We took the dog to our usual vet (who was a bone specialist) and told him he'd bitten for no obvious reason, so wanted a thorough check up to see there was nothing physically wrong. Very experienced vet that I had a lot of trust in, he was my vet for 17 years until he died, yet he didn't pick up on the pain. Professor Mills found it almost immediately just by examining him all over. They both had the exact same information to work from.

But how many behavioural issues are down to pain or illness as alot of rescue labs that come through are down to bad ownership and lack of suitable training and understanding of basic dog behaviour.

Average problems like those caused by ignorant owners I would say usually wouldn't need a behaviourist at all, just a decent trainer. So again anything severe or unusual enough to require a behaviourist I would prefer one that was a vet as well to cover all bases.

Lucy,
Agree with Marianne.
I think you might remember Daniel Mills as he was on the documentary 'secret life of dogs' (he's produced quite a lot of pioneering research into animal pheromones)
:-)

I agree-- a vet and a behaviourist. The only behaviourist I recommend is Samantha Lindley, who specialises in behavioural problems and also pain issues. These two things are often linked ( though of course not always) so great to have someone with specialist knowledge of both, to rule out pain, or otherwise.

But surely if you have a good vet they will be able to ascertain if the dog is in pain ?

I think what you are all saying then forget the advice everybody has been giving before on here and steer away from behavioural only specialist in favour of a vet behaviourist ?

> I agree-- a vet and a behaviourist.

Sarah Heath is another one I have heard many good things about. Vet, with a raft of up-to-date behavioural qualifications as well.

But surely if you have a good vet they will be able to ascertain if the dog is in pain ?

Obviously not in the case of my dog. There could be a number of reasons, such as the dog being tense/scared at being at a vet's surgery (haven't we all had cases of bringing an animal to the vet who was in pain, only for it to act normal once there? For instance my Papillon Bobby with the problem back, he was literally screaming in pain at home, once at the vets would not make a single sound), the vet only having a limited amount of time to check the dog over, usually around ten minutes, whereas the behaviourist will not be dressed as a vet, will not be in a vet's surgery, will start by trying to relax the dog, offer treats etc. Plus will probably have more experience trying to locate pain in obscure places. And as I didn't realise myself my dog was in pain, it clearly wasn't easy to find the spot.

I think what you are all saying then forget the advice everybody has been giving before on here and steer away from behavioural only specialist in favour of a vet behaviourist ?

No I think we're all saying that if there is a CHOICE, go for the one who is a vet as well. :) It may be a case of some people living really far away from a vet behaviourist  for instance -I don't think there are all that many.

I wonder why there aren't that many as I got that impression ?

The difficulty of finding a good vet is high.

The difficulty of finding a good behaviourist is high.

The difficulty of finding a good vet behaviourist is therefore doubly high and probably approaching impossible.

Rather than working with a mediocre behaviourist or vet, why not just have a good one of each... slightly easier (although still hard) to find.

Why there are a lot of very good vets and very good behaviourists why say the opposite ?

Not in my experience, or my area, LJS.

very nice post like this forum

what rabid said.
Depends on your area. Better chance of finding vet behaviourist in a densely populated area with moneyed up people. Remember, you enlightened people who have bothered to read the behaviour section of a dog forum are already in the top echelon. Most days I'm pressing the business cards of behaviourists into the unwilling hands of people who desperately need it; when I tell them it will cost more than twenty quid they quickly lose any scrap of interest they may have mustered.  Behaviour training usually ranks even below dental care in what people are prepared to pay money for.
I think behaviour is an interesting subject but can't see myself investing any money or time in it beyond reading in my own time. The majority of people where I live are so unwilling to pay a visit fee for a "normal" behaviourist; I think if I tried to get people to pay our vet callout fee plus one hour chargeable time; plus some repeat visits, I would get about one client per year. Sad but true.
Things may be different in your area.