Can I ask why people do this?  Surely when you are breeding you are doing it to improve on the previous generation and the intentions of keeping something better to show/work?     So why breed with no intentions of keeping a puppy? 

Well I would never do it. There may come a day when I end up with a litter of all the wrong sex (especially when the litters consist of just 2 or 3 pups in the toys) and therefore would not keep one, but I'd never intentionally set out NOT to keep one. I don't see the point in it at all then. I'd rather postpone the litter until I was able to keep a pup if I was that overcrowded. Although I could perhaps see a point if there was no way I could keep a pup and the bitch HAD to be mated due to age (you can easily wait with a first litter until 5 or so in my large breed but most certainly not in my toybreed), and if I was certain somebody I knew well in the breed wanted  a pup and would continue so that I could get a pup back one day. But that's quite a few ifs.

well sometimes you have agreements with other people that they'll take a pup and you get one back eventually... or you don't get a pup that you like or the right sex or perhaps you want to see what the pups are like from certain matings before having a litter to keep one from, or it's the wrong time for a pup but the right time for a litter.. lots or reasons really, although only breeding occasionally I can see that it would be very easy to be totally over run with dogs by keeping a pup from each, although I usually choice dogs I want to keep pups from so I am actually over run ;-)

some people will breed pups deliberately - not to 'improve' their lines - but to sell and often there's a high demand.  If responsible people don't do this, irresponsible ones will and whilst I don't fall into this category I can see the attraction in breeding a few litters to sell, perhaps to other breeders or perhaps to those simply wanting a smashing dog

Personally I wouldn't keep that amount of dogs that I couldn't keep something from when I bred.     And if you don't feel there's something good enough to keep in the litter, why should you sell them on to others as 'potentials'?

>  And if you don't feel there's something good enough to keep in the litter, why should you sell them on to others as 'potentials'?

Surely you would then place them in good pet homes, I know I would. In fact I've turned down show homes more than once if I don't feel the pup in question is going to be cut out for the showring.

Obviously we plan a mating in the hope of producing, amongst other things, showable puppies, but things don't always work out that way.

> So why breed with no intentions of keeping a puppy? 

To put something else into the gene pool so that it can be used down the line in future breeding, (my own or others, perhaps starting new enthusiasts off).

To safeguard your line of breeding should the ones you keep prove infertile, a problem crops up, you have something to bring back in.

To learn what your bitch/line produces to various pairings, to aid future breeding decisions.

I'd like to point out I have a numerically small breed, and generally will have three litters from my bitches.

Up until my 6th generation I kept one pup from each bitch.  In 2006 I went abroad to bring in new bloodlines and kept a bitch purely for the lines (all the best ones were male, and the best bitch went to start of someone new).  The one I kept was not as good as it's Mother (whose sire 3 friends and I had brought in through Quarantine), so I mated her again to a dog I had bred by an imported sire, and kept a puppy to show.

I took this bitch abroad for mating kept a bitch, who will have her proving litter I hope in the Autumn (I will not be keeping one, but the stud owner is hoping there is a good male for her).

The bitch I kept for her lines was mated, and in the third litter I kept my current youngster who seems to be better than the offspring of the better half sister, so we now have two branches.

The youngest two are the daughters of the two half sisters I kept.

Numbers in the last 20 years have reduced from 120 - 150 registrations a year to, 30 - 50 a year, mainly due to the death or retirement of breeders that bred a couple of litters a year, and we are left with those who breed only when they want a puppy, and a few others who probably breed a litter, sometimes two a year.

Especially in numerically small breeds your breeding is often not just for yourself but to support the breeds gene pool and enable others to come in to do the same. 

I feel it behoves all serious breeders to do this and play their part, including maybe importing new blood too, so spreading the cost of keeping the breed viable.

You could breed fully intending to keep a puppy but perhaps the litter may not have the quality you might be hoping for and so the breeder doesn't keep one and sells them to fireside homes.

On the two occasions that I've not kept a puppy, one was kept by my sister (which was the reason for that particular breeding) and the other was kept for my brother - again the litter bred for that reason.  I'm now 70, and am the happy owner of two lovely labs - one aged 7, the other aged 3 but will not have another puppy.   My health is good (touches wood and whistles) - but who knows just how long I'll be able to say that?    That's why I say that I shall never breed again.  

To breed another litter, and to uphold my promise to new owners that I would always take back a dog of my breeding could mean that I might, in my late 70s, suddenly find that I had another couple of dogs - plus one that I would have kept - and that would be disastrous.

Well I must be an odd fish then as I wouldn't mate my bitch just because she had to be mated, I wouldn't thrust motherhood on her just for my gain.  There is every risk she could die during  whelping and leave you with nothing at all.

> I wouldn't thrust motherhood on her just for my gain....> There is every risk she could die during  whelping

But as others have tried to explain, it wouldn't be just for the breeder's gain. The aim would be for the betterment of the breed, keeping desirable qualities going instead of just letting them die out. And as for the bitch dying in whelping, well that can happen occasionally, and very sad it is too. But it is actually quite unusual these days so I think describing it as 'every risk' is a bit of an exaggeration.

You may want to 'test' the breeding. See what is produced and see if you like what's being produced and therefore keep a pup to breed on from. It may also be that when the litter arrives there are things that stop you keeping a pup from that litter.

This has happened to me. My first litter was a so called 'test' litter, the 2nd litter from same girly I intended to keep a pup, but an emergency cropped up to prevent me from doing so. So, the 3rd and final litter will give me my pup. However, I will point out that I had a waiting list as long as your arm for each of the previous 2 litters, so no shortage of exceptionally good homes - working and pets.

Life aint always that straightforward, no matter the best of intentions.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">But as others have tried to explain, it wouldn't be just for the breeder's gain. The aim would be for the betterment of the breed, keeping desirable qualities going instead of just letting them die out.

I have bred 3 litters, every one has been a slight improvement on the previous one.   3 Show Champions & 3 reserve CC winners, one Sh.Ch. got her JW, another her ShCM. 

>I have bred 3 litters, every one has been a slight improvement on the previous one.   3 Show Champions & 3 reserve CC winners, one Sh.Ch. got her JW, another her ShCM. 

So you have kept all 6? (or shared with others), or kept one from all three litters making 4 dogs you now have?

If they have produced so well, why would you restrict your girls potential input into the gene pool to just one litter?  would you expect the same restraint from a stud dog owner.  As it is no bitch can now produce more than 4 litters, so if breeders choose to breed even less from their bitches the gene pools will become even more skewed on males, who have no restrictions on how often they sire.

Do you think the best bitches should be encouraged to have up to the maximum of four litters, or that more bitches (possibly of lesser qualities) be encouraged to have just one?  I am here speaking of breeds with small gene pools and low registration numbers (below the 300 per year mark at which a breed if a native one would be considered endangered), not Labradors for example.

> There is every risk she could die during  whelping and leave you with nothing at all.

In this sad case having bred from the mother before/more than once you have more chance to regain your lines, a bitch can as easily be lost with a first litter as a subsequent one.

> I have bred 3 litters, every one has been a slight improvement on the previous one.   3 Show Champions & 3 reserve CC winners, one Sh.Ch. got her JW, another her ShCM.

Well done, you must feel very proud.

But you know I've looked at last year's KC registrations for your breed, and they were as follows;
1st quarter: 43
2nd quarter: 12
3rd quarter: 6
4th quarter: 35
This makes a grand total of 96 puppies registered last year.  

If you, and other successful breeders take the attitude that you will only breed very occasionally, I cannot see how that can possibly help your breed. You will be hard put to even maintain the gene pool you have now.

Well I must be an odd fish then as I wouldn't mate my bitch just because she had to be mated, I wouldn't thrust motherhood on her just for my gain.  There is every risk she could die during  whelping and leave you with nothing at all.

I completely agree with you. I have only bred twice, in 1998 and 2011. The first litter produced 2 Obedience Champions, both won the Pro-Dog of the Year Final and one won the Crufts Dog Obedience Championships (he was the second highest C winner of his era). I kept a dog from this litter who was C only before being retired due to Epilepsy. He will be 15 in August and still going strong (hasn't fitted for nine years, touch wood and whistle).

The 2011 litter didn't produce a dog which I thought would match my temperament and training methods so, with many tears being shed as it was my sole reason for breeding, I didn't keep one. Two of the litter went to active pet homes, the rest went to Championship C (Ticket) handlers. My bitch didn't particularly enjoy motherhood - she did everything she should but I didn't feel it was fair to do it again so she was speyed. I remember when she was whelping thinking 'God, if she dies it will be MY fault because I've put her in this position'. Thankfully everything was fine but it's such a serious thing to do that I personally would only consider it if I wanted a pup from her.

I have always done a mating because I've wanted to keep a puppy from the litter.  When I only kept bitches and only had dogs, then of course it doesn't always work out as planned. :(

Although I've never done it, I can certainly understand doing a mating with another breed enthusiast taking pick of litter to keep the line available for the future.

What I can't accept is people producing a litter just to sell them to whoever - that to me is using the bitch for money. :(

If the breeder of my last puppy had kept the pick of the litter herself, then I would not have the show girl I have now.
Sometimes it is better for a breeder to let a puppy go to a good show home, than become overloaded with dogs themselves and not be able to do them all justice.
Everyone's circumstances are different and bitches are very often at their optimum breeding period when the timing may not be quite right for the breeder to keep another puppy.
If the puppies are from health tested parents, have achieved success in the show ring or a working disciplines and the breeder has good homes ready and waiting then I can not see any moral objection.
My objection would be people breeding from untested parents, or tested but with poor results and just churning out puppies that would do nothing to enhance the gene pool.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">But you know I've looked at last year's KC registrations for your breed, and they were as follows; <br />1st quarter: 43 <br />2nd quarter: 12 <br />3rd quarter: 6 <br />4th quarter: 35<br />This makes a grand total of 96 puppies registered last year.

Yes quite low but then the demand isn't there for LM's, however some breeders do take advantage of the Pet Passport scheme and we have had litters sired by European dogs/AI litters too.  Our inbreeding co-efficient is only 6.0% so that shows diversity in the lines.  Which is 1% less than the other breed I own - Flat Coated Retriever which has hundreds of puppies registered each year.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">I completely agree with you.

Thank heavens someone thinks the same as I do!

>  Our inbreeding co-efficient is only 6.0% so that shows diversity in the lines.  Which is 1% less than the other breed I own - Flat Coated Retriever which has hundreds of puppies registered each year.

OK, I looked on your website and just saw the LMs. FWIW I do think you should be able to do as you like with your own dogs. But I also think that those who think differently to you are not necessarily breeding for the sake of selling puppies. They may well be doing their best to further their breed.

Each to their own then eh.

> Our inbreeding co-efficient is only 6.0%

I would not say that an average COI of 6% is low.

That is basically equivalent to the COI of pairing first cousins, as close as we are allowed to go with people in this country.

The original question is why would soemeon breed when not keepign a puppy, and plenty of valid reasons have been given, that does not mean that any one way is the only right way, or right for you.

There are many things I would not do that others do, and it doesn't neccesarily make me right and them wrong.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">OK, I looked on your website and just saw the LMs.

My website is actually for my cats!

(he was the second highest C winner of his era).

Sorry, meant to write (he was the second highest CC winner of his era) lol

> My website is actually for my cats!

I know, they look lovely! But you mention your LMs too.

This thread and its various comments caught my eye and I felt I ought to reply.
How do you know, unless it is you personally that has bred the litter, what the circumstances are surrounding the litter of puppies? The tone of your questions suggests something 'wrong' has either occured or about to occur hence your question
I live in a house and garden which are 'compact' and I don't have oodles of room to keep another dog bigger than a Westie, however, many friends do and those who are retired are spending their days 24/7 with their dogs who are all healthy, shown when possible, and reasonably successful. I am in extremely close contact with the buyers of my puppies and we have over the years built a very close bond and friendship adn are very porud to say are ALL friends. I have even bought a puppy back off one owner who bought one from me several years ago, she showed it to RCC level and when my old girl died, I bought one back from her. The fact that I personally did not keep another bitch doesnt mean that I am not doing what I can to improve the health and quality at all. It doesn't mean because the pleasure and joy of showing goes to someone else rather than me that there is anything wrong with that, or is there, and for 38 years I have got it wrong, I honestly thought it was because I live in a smaller house and garden which my husband and I can manage and have no mortgage and outlays and the dogs we do have are family??
Some breeders are blessed with space and surrounding - good for them it must be lovely. They can pick and choose and decide if they will keep a pup or not - good for them. There are also those who keep a pup on, but, because it doesnt do well and achieve great heights by the time it is 2yr old they sell it or pass it on to rescue. You tell me now who did the best for their puppy in the beginning and which one of us knows, hand on heart, that every dog/bitch which they have bred is shown/worked/loved/treasured as it should be?  The point I am making, you don't need to keep a puppy from your litter.
My god if everyone who bred, and there are some big breeders out there who get away with up to 4 litters a year and struggle to sell their stock without keeping a single pup for future showing,  were to keep one puppy from each litter, I'd like to see how they live their lives. Out of curiosity and we know what that did - oops - how do you get on with your cats? Do you keep one out of every litter?
At the end of the day a lot of what people do is personal and has got nothing to do with anyone else, and people should keep their noses out, Esme is right which what she says, I totally agree.
If someone was breeding totally inappropriately or for the detroment of the dogs health, then it becomes an issue.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Out of curiosity and we know what that did - oops - how do you get on with your cats? Do you keep one out of every litter?

Well I am not going to go into the in's & outs of cat breeding but cats are seasonal breeders (In the main) and become very thin and out of condition with constant calling/lusting for girls so unless you want to give them chemical contraceptives you have no option than to mate them.  A dog doesn't require this, a bitch or a dog can go their entire lives without needing to be mated.

Last years solitary litters of kittens was 6, 5 live.  I kept two.    This years litter (So far) is 7, they are only 8 weeks old at the moment so there's no definite decisions on which one is staying but one will be, possibly two.  I dn't have a huge garden, nor do I live a luxury lifestyle but I have put a lot of time & effort into selecting lines & imports in my cats that eventually I can put my own home-bred cats together in the future.

Because if you breed say every 2 years, with a breed that hopefully will live 12 or 14 years, you will easily end up with 7 or 8 dogs, which is quite a lot at least for me! My plan if / when I have a dog to breed from, is to keep a puppy from the 2nd litter - can't breed a 1st litter with the bitch being 5 or 6 years old, but having dogs that are 5 or 6 years apart in age will mean only 3 or 4 dogs living here which I can cope with. :-)

Yes I forgot that one, which is the most basic one.

I have now reached my maximum of 6 (though would prefer to keep only 4), and because I kept two daughters from one of my girls, who are only 17 months apart, and a daughter from each of them only 15 months apart I will not be able to keep anything from at least one of their first litters.

I have to wait until one of the dogs dies before I can keep another.  13 1/2 is the average age, but they have been known to go to 17.

At present the girls are 13 1/2, nealry 10, 6 1/2, nearly 5, 2 1/2 and 1 year. 

Thats interesting. My husbands family bred Abys for as long as I care to remember - real sweeties, and pretty low maintenance from what I can recall. Apart from the smell of cat urine I could have carried on, however, we chose dogs instead as our family pets. So, when you breed the cats do you ask the owners if they plan to breed from them and if not, do you ask them to be spayed?
I am going back some time now but I thought there was something in a code of ethics that meant being the breeder this was what you asked any prospective owner?
Anyway quite interesting but I am guessing nothing to do with your original question as that was of course about keeping a puppy, or not.

Early neutering in kittens is becoming commonplace not something I have undertaken as I'm not sure I agree with it. However, I have been lucky with the homes for last years kittens, all went to dog people, two of which are CD'ers!   

And there is the option to register them on the non-active register which means they can be shown but progeny will not be eligible for registration.

I always breed to keep the best.
My breed often have small litters and markings are important.
So ....I always intend to keep one at least but just sometimes it doesn't work out that way.