Aargh!!!!! Losing the will.......

What to do? When you know someone is loading litters and you inform KC and they do nothing about it?!

What do you mean by "loading litters"?

Registering more than were born!

Are they then using the extra paperwork on non KC eligible pups?

Your guess is as good as mine but I don't know of any other reason to have 'spare papers' floating about!

> I don't know of any other reason to have 'spare papers' floating about!

Well they can be used to overbreed a bitch by usign oen set of papers for one litter and antoerh set for the next.

The Kennel Club can do nothing without proof.

After all reports could simply be malicious.

Sorry, no faith in KC at all. Does not surprise me.

So tell me what can they do, if no evidence of wrongdoing is forthcoming.  They are not a Police force after all.

With evidence, they could ask for DNA testing of the purported progeny by a vet, with compared to the parents, but might be a bit difficult if the litter has been dispersed.

A buyer doubting the veracity of the parentage could ask the Kennel club to do this I suppose, as I know has happened in the past.

So tell me what can they do, if no evidence of wrongdoing is forthcoming.  They are not a Police force after all.

Nor can they be present when all litters are born to check numbers. The only way would be to demand DNA from every puppy in every litter and I can just see that upping everyone's costs a lot and causing complaints.

The sad fact is, those who want to cheat will always find a way. It's impossible to stop everything, so much relies on the honesty of the breeder.

I was horrified to be told that some breeders register more pups than were born so that the 'ghost' dogs can be used to register future pups from bitches having two litters a year, or more than KC will register...

If as a commercial breeder your reason for breeding is purely commercial and you wish to KC register the puppies you won't make much money from only 4 litters, with at least a years gap between litters, means keeping a bitch for at least 4 years.

I was told by a breeder of a toy breed that it is common practise to keep two puppies but only register one. They keep the smallest for the show ring and this one will be spayed so they do not keep losing their coat or miss important shows when they come into season.
The larger sister is kept for breeding and the puppies are passed off as being from the show girl. He told me all about it as I was stood waiting for my class at a show. My Jaw was nearly on the floor.
When DNA testing for all dogs was first floated a number of years ago, I could not understand why there was so much opposition in some quarters.
I now know why, as the above is only one way that the registration is manipulated, miss alliances, back to back litters are all being KC registered as there is currently know way the KC  can refuse them.
 

I've heard of this practice too and been shocked. The term 'paper puppies' is used .

Are there no dates on the papers? If not currently then surely this would stop papers being used six months/ a year down the line?

The DOB is on there, :-)

I think this kind of breeder usually has two or three litters around the same time adds extra numbers to say two litters and uses the 'spares' for the third, we have occasionally had people querying that their pups look older/younger than stated or the dates on their KC transfer are wrong and I guess this is why?

It's a horrendous practice....... but, I guess we are not surprised by it.

Actually, one year I registered my litter, (I always order the KC 5 gen pedigree too) and I received my envelopes from the KC with transfers and pedigrees not once but twice so I had duplicates. I doubt I am the only one to have ever had that happen. Now, as most of us have pups on our records who have never been transfered by any pet owners, (show and working dogs are always transfered by the owners) someone dubious could easily have used the duplicates on older stock and passed them off as those dogs to breed from.

The mind boggles at what goes on and it is very upsetting, you really need to research all breeders as carefully as possible, maybe it does need policing properly, but I guess the KC don't need to do that.... we're not supposed to lie are we? :-(

Actually, one year I registered my litter, (I always order the KC 5 gen pedigree too) and I received my envelopes from the KC with transfers and pedigrees not once but twice eek so I had duplicates. I doubt I am the only one to have ever had that happen. Now, as most of us have pups on our records who have never been transfered by any pet owners, (show and working dogs are always transfered by the owners) someone dubious could easily have used the duplicates on older stock and passed them off as those dogs to breed from.

Yes I've had that happen -got two sets. I have also seen KC registration certificates for sale on Ebay!

I have also seen KC registration certificates for sale on Ebay!

  It just gets worse doesn't it?  The poor people out there being duped. :-(

OMG that is soooo bad!  Is it time to have DNA proofing on pups?

I can't see how they would do that with the sheer volume of registrations.  2012 total; registrations 229,230. 

That is a lot of DNA samples to process, plus those of the parents, let's assume they are not already profiled (none of mine are and I don't know anyone whose male is), also what about when you use an overseas dog?

It would certainly delay registrations as I believe pups need to be weaned for DNA swabbing, and also the only way ti could be cheat proof would be for a third party to do the swabbing.  Nice earner for the vets, and probably add at least £50 per pup to costs if not more.

They could do what they do in USA with the AKC where any dogs producing over certain number of litters had to DNA.

Perhaps all those who are required to hold an LA breeding  license (that is those registering more than 4 litters) should have to have their litters DNA profiled, after all they have enough of a  turnover.

I can't see how they would do that with the sheer volume of registrations.  2012 total; registrations 229,230.

I unfortunately agree....... you only have to look at the thickness of the BRS to gulp at the very thought of anyone having a job going out and DNA testing all pups and dogs in it, it would be a full time job and need hundreds of employees to make it work, can't see the KC ever saying it has to be done, as all the thousands of 'breeders' who don't want it and the charlatans would about turn and not KC reg anymore cutting off their own noses, which any business would be reluctant to do rightly or wrongly money rules everything today.

To DNA test any other way via veterinaries and sending off paperwork etc on a large scale wouldn't work IMO either as anything can be faked today with the Internet, copy and paste and you can forge anything you want if you know what you are doing and people can always be corrupted there are dodgy people in any job. (Oh, how did I get so cynical, I used to be so trusting. :-D)

The only way to stop things like this is for people duped to report it to trading standards and the KC and have prosecutions go through, a few regular cases and hefty fines and maybe some that way inclined will be too scared to do it?

> The only way to stop things like this is for people duped to report it to trading standards and the KC and have prosecutions go through, a few regular cases and hefty fines and maybe some that way inclined will be too scared to do it?

I know the KC have in the past, required some breeders to submit DNA samples when they register a litter. This was because of irregularities with their paperwork. But this has to be brought to the KC's attention by enough people before they will investigate.

> Is it time to have DNA proofing on pups?

YES..all parents and progeny should be DNA profiled.  The overall cost would be absorbed in to the price of a puppy.  Really is an extra £10 - £25 per puppy that extortionate when it means that the pedigree registered as absolutely correct?  Also you then have a DNA record should any genetic problems arise that might be traced back to a source.

In my own breed we are seeing too many litters with questionable parentage (not to mention questionable dates of birth). 

I only heard yesterday of a litter who has a questionable sire.  I have advised the owner of one of the possible sires to contact the KC though from what I hear she won't get very far :(

> Really is an extra £10 - £25 per puppy that extortionate when it means that the pedigree registered as absolutely correct? 

If your honest they pedigree is absolutely correct, what use is it to you if ti's not who are you kidding.

And the cost would be a lot more. 

Vets charge around here over £30 for a consultation, then I am sure they would not do the swabbing and paperwork for nothing (I have paid between £57 and £68 for signing a health certificate for one dog, and the same for a simple in house blood test). 

DNA profiling for each pup is then £25, plus the same for each parent.

Most puppy farmers don't bother with KC registration and sell their puppies with a spurious mickey mouse registration or unregistered as the general public want cheap puppies.

I agree Brainless to the GP it is not going to make a jot of difference. But in the breed I was referring to in my post the price of a puppy is in the thousands. You can pay £3000 for a bitch of this toy breed.
If breeders are getting this sort of money surely the purchaser should have some guarantee that the parentage is as is stated on the KC documents.
It should apply across the board, but it some breeds it would be a lot harder to deceive, as they have individual marking etc.
Certainly those breeders who are registering  many litters should perhaps come under more scrutiny.

> I agree Brainless to the GP it is not going to make a jot of difference. But in the breed I was referring to in my post the price of a puppy is in the thousands. You can pay £3000 for a bitch of this toy breed.
> If breeders are getting this sort of money surely the purchaser should have some guarantee that the parentage is as is stated on the KC documents.
>

But that is not the norm.

I think you will find though that the price of puppies in most other breeds is around £500 - £800, my own only just recently being £700, and an average litter is 6 puppies, in most medium size breeds. 

With health testing for parents around the £400 mark, and stud fees the price of a puppy and nearly always involving a lot of travel.

I think if you look at Pomeranians, Boston terriers, French Bulldogs, Pugs and several other smaller breeds the price tag is extremely high.
I appreciate that several of the of the above breeds do have very small litters and a lot have to have C sections, but looking at a few websites there does seem to be an awful lot of people who seem to have puppies most of the time.
Some breeds are more commercial than others, and where there is demand the price goes up and you get the BYB breeders, jumping on the bandwagon to make quick money.
Very easy to KC register as we all know and no checks as to which bitch and sire have produced which litter.
I had the misfortune once to go to a lunch and be seated next to a BYB of Pomeranians, unfortunately the host had in placed us next to each other as she knew we both had an interest in dogs, unfortunately in ethics of dog breeding we were worlds apart.
She bred Pomeranians, did not bother to KC register them as she could get £1500 for dogs and £2000 for bitches just going as pets. She went on to inform me that she went to some of the top kennels in the breed and bought her breeding stock, but told them she just wanted them for pets, presumably another reason that the pups were not KC registered as the papers were more than likely endorsed.
She had to leave the lunch early as she had a phone call to say one of her bitches had gone into whelp. I was not sorry to see the back of her, not one of the best social occasions I have attended !!!   

> she could get £1500 for dogs and £2000 for bitches just going as pets

     Wow!  I have a very small toy breed, and price of puppy is very similar to Barbara's breed.  Who would ever Pay £2,000 for a puppy?  Most ordinary folk wouldn't find that sort of cash.

Usually  women with more money than sense, who want a tiny fluffy thing they can dress up in silly clothes and carry it around in a handbag.
The woman told me that she has a long waiting list as people who have had a puppy from her in the past come back for another or give her personal recommendations.
They are not worried that the pups are not KC registered as long as it is tiny and has the right coat colour and the fluffier the better !!!!!

WOW I'm in Pomeranian's and there's now way that I would pay that kind of money.  Imported a dog from a leading kennel in Spain for less than £2,000.00!