We've had two bizarre happenings - maybe pure co-incidence.

Two months ago Tweedy cocker, hurtling about  broke the end off the condyle of his humerus - he's fine now, and out of cage rest.    Now 2 days ago, cocker Welly did the same, only worse - in to orthpod next Friday.

Welly is six now, Tweedy is three - never any problems before.

Anyone with working cockers know if this is a cocker thing - and why it didn't happen when they were working hard in the winter?

Jo

Hi - don't know much about it but this happened to a friends working cocker - apparently they get a condition where the bones of the humerus don't fuse properly. I just emailed her and it's called IOHC ( incomplete ossification of the humeral condyle) her dog was 5 and just did it out in the garden turning at slow speed which was shocking at the time and she was worried it might be bone cancer initially.
I'm sure there is loads of info online. Her dog is now ok after surgery .
Sorry no other details . Hope your dog is ok.

Thanks very much for that - I have googled it, but found nothing much at all.    Obviously, I'm very concerned, and wonder what , if anything, I can do to prevent it happening  again.

Jo

I expect you have found this....but just in case you have not :- http://www.sesss.org/#/joint-fractures-iohc/4535543738
Aileen

Are these dogs intact, early neutering can cause problems with growth plates closing leading to long bones being longer and possibly weaker than normal

Are these dogs intact, early neutering can cause problems with growth plates closing leading to long bones being longer and possibly weaker than normal

I actually thought early neutering actually stopped growth plates closing, thus resulting in larger animals (horses and dogs) as it is the hormones that tell the growth plates to stop growing.

That's what rhodach just said.....if the dog was neutered early,the growth plate closure is delayed,so the bones grow for a longer period,thus creating the greater height. This could put the bone at a greater stress than it was naturally designed to take.

http://www.andersonmoores.com/services/orthopaedics/spaniel_iohc_research/

I was interested to read more and I found this link .
The info is directed at springers but would apply to cockers as well.
These are the people doing the research on the disease dogs are picking up around the new Forrest .

Sorry to hear about your dogs Jo. Hope they're both doing well. I've seen a few of these fractures, mostly in Springers though the last two dogs I've seen have been GSDs, oddly (don't think they're particularly predisposed). The last 3 I've seen have been entire. Don't think neutering really makes a difference here. The age of your boys would be quite typical I think. I knew that the literature says cockers can have IOHC; was hoping they were meaning show cockers though! as I'm considering getting a working cocker and this is a major consideration for me. I have never seen a condylar fracture in a working cocker but that's probably because they're only just becoming popular in my part of the country now.

I don't think there's anything you can do to prevent it happening again, but I would consider getting the good leg on each dog CT scanned...as the links posted above have mentioned, you will often see it in both legs. Then, if the dog has a bilateral problem, you can be watching it and get not-bust-yet leg lag screwed if they ever become at all sore on that elbow.

I think this will be a very difficult problem to eradicate from spaniels as Xrays for elbow scoring would not show it; it's hard enough to get breeders to hip score and eye test dogs as it is; few will pay for CT scans at current prices I think; we don't know the mode if inheritance so the parents might not ever break; and if they do it will be at 4 years old plus when they already have litters on the ground.

On a (possibly) unrelated note....
I was watching the spaniel working tests at a local game fair recently, since I'm interested in getting one. Staring hard at elbows. Noticed that a lot of the ESS stand with elbows abducted a bit (sticking out) and wrists in...almost Jack Russell Queen Anne style. There were only a couple of WCS there but looking at some working cocker breeder websites, most of the dogs in the photos appear to have this conformation to some degree too. I may have been floating through my professional life without really noticing, but I haven't seen many show type cockers' front legs shaped like this (I know they are totally different) and though I see the occasional pet ESS with slightly sticky-out elbows, it doesn't seem to be as marked as it is in some of the working dogs I saw last week. I really want to get a dog that's going to last and be able to work till it's 10 or so, barring misfortune. All the pups seem to be marketed on the number of FTCHs in the pedigree and maybe whether the parents have been eye scored though, nothing on functional longevity. I think the best I could do would be to get a pup from an older dam who still looks sound, by an even older sire who's still working.  Sorry for the thread hijack, maybe the mods can move it to a new thread if things are best kept separate. I'm interested in hearing the views of people with older working spaniels - in your experience, does the front leg conformation correlate well with soundness or not? The twisty legged JRTs I see tend to do OK, but then they're mostly pets and don't have to make hard quartering turns for an entire career.

Been away for a few days, so picking this up again - thanks for the feedback, guys!

Both dogs are entire.    The little bitch is 6 years old now, and her (compound) fracture was most likely caused purely by trauma according to the orthopod- at least, I 'hope'  it was that, and not IOHC.    But to be honest, her legs are a little 'Queen Ann'. although it hasn't stopped her picking up each season without being sick or sorry.   The accident happened when just playing about behind our house.      The problem , if such it is, is that she has had two litters of super pups, so now I worry about them.

The boy is three years old, straight legs, with no bow in them.    His was the more classic condylar fracture although not diagnosed positively as such.   Interestingly he had been very slightly lame on and off during the season, although nothing was picked up by the vets.      Even so, if it had been IOHC, I would have expected it when he was younger (he has always been a passionate worker)

I just adore my 'little hobbits', and need to know where to go from here.    I suppose, as irishvet says, go for a litter from and older dog and bitch, who have proved themselves in as many ways as possible (normal BVA tests and working ability).........but there is still a question mark in my mind about the cause in my 6yr old bitch.....you wouldn't want to breed very much later than that!

Maybe we should xray the humerus on our breeding cockers along with everything else.

Jo