Help,  Our old cocker just bit our child.  I've no idea what happened.  My FIL and SIL were visiting and the old girl was up on the sofa getting petted.  She was sitting behind our daughter and (after the incident) my SIL said she could feel the cocker grumbling but didn't hear anything.  My daughter leaned in towards her and she bit her face.  Not terribly bad but enough to break the skin in 2 places.  My daughter got a terrible frights(as we all did).  This is completely unheard of.  She's a grumpy old git getting but never to the kids, ever.
My OH then told me that he'd went to give her a lift onto the sofa(she needs a punt up now) and she spun round and put her teeth on his arm.  This happened this afternoon while I was out.
We are taking her to the vet in the morning to get her a checkover.  My OH is not happy at all and TBH, he wants to PTS.  I am stuck between a rock and a hard place.  I adore our old girl and won't let that happen but if anything else happens to the kids, it will be on my conscience.  I don't know what to do or say. 
I just wish I knew why?  What happened?  I was there, there was no nonsense or food or she wasn't hurt or anything!!
What am I going to do...

What an upsetting event :-( From what you say it seems that the cocker was giving a warning (the vibrational growl your SiL could feel) that she wasn't happy for whatever reason (perhaps she wasn't feeling well, had toothache or a headache or a tummyache, or anything like that) but it was ignored so she felt she had to say "No, leave me alone" more clearly and your daughter (how old is she?) got the brunt of it.

Tonight you all behave very calmly; give the cocker some space and peace and quiet to calm down, and the rest of the family have a quiet evening and an early night to lower the understandable tension in the house. Things will seem clearer in the morning.

> My OH is not happy at all and TBH, he wants to PTS.  I am stuck between a rock and a hard place.  I adore our old girl and won't let that happen but if anything else happens to the kids, it will be on my conscience.  I don't know what to do or say.

I wouldn't go with any knee jerk reactions. Let your vet check her over, she may have a treatable medical condition that could resolve and result in her feeling more comfortable. A change in temperament in an old dog could be due to many different things. In the meantime, try to explain to your children that your old cocker isn't quite herself at the moment and that they need to give her space until you know what's wrong.

Hope things improve for you all.

Thanks guys.  Jean, she is 4(daughter) and Cocker is 11yrs.  They have always been great together. 
2 things I think might be to blame - We have recently returned from holiday and she's been really 'quiet' for a while now but more so since we returned.
And, she had a mammory strip a year or so back and it is returning again.
We are taking her to the vet in the morning so here's hoping it's something silly like toothache.  It's just so unlike her with OUR kids.  She has always been grumpy and bad tempered with strange kids or our other dogs but never with our kids.  I suppose we will just need to revise how we keep her but at her age, I would hate to separate her from the family to spend more time in her bed area.

So sorry for you all Cacar, you call her a grumpy old git which I'm sure is due to age but perhaps creaky joints are beginning to get a little painful. Our youngest (who shouldn't be on the sofa) requires a bump up as the day progresses & occasionally gets his front up but ends up sitting on this backside rather than standing on his back legs. Now this is not relevant to you but if he's feeling particularly stiff he'll grumble when I go to bump him up so I've learnt just to leave him to sort out what he wants to do. Like your old girl he has never bitten or used his teeth but as he's become more decrepit I give him space, even when he plays heavily with our other dog monitor when it gets too rough because if he starts to hurt be becomes a right b..ch. Hope the vet will find a reason, good luck age can make us all grumpy & she did try to warn you

Cracar I think you have two separate incidents here, when the dog span round and bit your husband whilst bumping her up on the sofa, it could have been because she was in pain, the lifting her onto the sofa if she is arthritic in her back legs or spine  could have been a reaction to a sharp pain.
With the other incident the dog was effectively blocked in, by other people and your daughter, when a dog feels cornered and unable to escape they often feel threatened, their instinct is for fight or flight. As the option for flight was effectively cut off she only had the other option left. She growled as a warning but the warning was ignored.
Probably a build up of things, her age, recent holiday and being away and then visitors, she was probably a bit confused and also may be suffering from underlying health issues.
I would take her to the vets and get her checked out, but then give her a little time to settle and most importantly her own space.
Your daughter will have had a nasty shock, but fortunately no real damage done, I would use it as an opportunity to explain to her not to lean over the dog or go to it if she is in  a confined space or resting.
Hope it all works out for you, it is difficult with older dogs as just like older humans they have good and bad days, and on the bad day they need a bit of peace and quiet.

> when the dog span round and bit your husband whilst bumping her up on the sofa, it could have been because she was in pain, the lifting her onto the sofa if she is arthritic in her back legs or spine  could have been a reaction to a sharp pain.
> With the other incident the dog was effectively blocked in, by other people and your daughter, when a dog feels cornered and unable to escape they often feel threatened, their instinct is for fight or flight.

Was just going to post something along these lines.
At 11 year old it's not unusual for her to have some arthritis, and as a result not as willing (or able) to move herself away from an uncomfortable situation. In effect, her 'fight or flight' response is limited to 'fight' because it may cause her pain to choose the other option.

My oldie went in for a full MOT and bloods a few weeks ago - a necessity as we don't know how old she is, but she's nearer 12 than 10 - and after mentioning to the vet how she suddenly launched from sleeping to have a pop at my other dog as he passed by, she agreed it could indicate pain. We tried her on Loxicom (painkiller, metacam) for two weeks and I saw a very subtle difference... she has now been off it for 2 weeks as a double-blind and I see more changes now to indicate she must be feeling some pain somewhere, so she will go back on it.

Skin broken in two places on your four year old daughters face.

All care must be given to safeguard your child too. Please don't forget if the poor old lady is getting achy and arthritic she is probably feeling threatened by an energetic child.

Karen.

Funny how because it is a cocker spaniel that bit the child then it is poor dog feeling threatened. If it had been a staffie or a breed like that then you would all have been saying the dog needs to be pts. It was only a while back saying if any dog of mine bit a child then the child comes first. Double standards spring to mind.

>If it had been a staffie or a breed like that then you would all have been saying the dog needs to be pts.

What nonsense. :rolleyes: This isn't a breedist site or forum, and whatever the breed we always try to find the reason (and there invariably is one) and never stigmatise.

I agree jeangenie this site doesnt jump to breed conculsions.

I agree with JG as well I have never seen anyone choose between the breeds and to be honest when I started to read 'that' post I though they were going to suggest cocker rage, and I was preparing to say unlikely at that age.

Different breeds offer a different degree of damage but that is not the point, a bite hurts whatever the cause or severity and there is always a reason for an otherwise friendly dog to suddenly bite no matter what the breed.

Get a grip and cure the paranoia - better for you and your dog if you try and relax a bit.

Double standards spring to mind.

Rubbish. What WOULD have made a difference would have been if the poster said their 2 year old dog had started to bite, then everything would have been different (although people here ALWAYS recommend a vet check first to make sure the dog is not ill or in pain), but for an ELEVEN year old dog to suddenly bite, it is so extremely likely that it is related to age and health problems and even quite possibly the mind set of the dog changing -certainly I see a difference in mind in my oldies, they can get confused etc.

>I agree jeangenie this site doesnt jump to breed conculsions.

I think with the current posters that's largely true. The recent past has included some distinctly breedist posts, sadly. Maybe that's what jrterrier is getting at.

Honestly do not remember reading any biased threads - we may describe a breed as feisty but that is a breed description not a criticism of the breed any more than saying a breed drools or is prone to chase cars - they are facts and not a criticism, just something you need to be aware of when purchasing a puppy.

Marianne, I think you may be right.  I think it is a mind thing rather than anything else.  We have just came back from the vet(bank holiday so had to take the on-call) who was a complete moron!  However, they gave her a thorough check (after I pointed out what they should be looking at!) and came to the conclusion that she is fine.  No obvious pain, wagging tail, total body control(back legs, neck, spine).  Slightly whitened gums suggesting Anemia but not enough to worry about?  She also checked her eyesight(normal for age) and temp(normal) and teeth(slightly yucky but normal).
Wanted to keep her in for Observation incase it was fits?WHAT!!! My reply was not to be stupid.  I could tell if she's been in a trance and she most certainly wasn't.
Only thing I could say was, she'd been slowing down over the last 6 months or so and was very clingy/sleepy in the house with me(but then, I wasn't near for the bite to be a protection/jealousy thing).
Completey pointless visit, tbh but then I never gave her much to go on....

To add, this morning, my 4 yr old is getting the usual welcome downstairs(obviously majorly supervised) and the oldie WANTS to sit with her and do the usual couch snuggling and I'm the bad guy(in both their eyes!).  When I explained to daughter that the old girl was tired and needed a bit of space and peace, she went to her and gave her a little pet saying "You are a bad dog for biting me but just don't do it again and we can be friends" Awwww.  If only life were that simple?

Also, in reply to jrterrier, yes, in life you are certainly correct, there are far too many double standards like this but with this forum, I haven't witnessed it and TBH, I think each situation deserves to get judged on it's own merit. 
In fact, today, at the vets, a Chi was sitting on the owners knee, growling and barking aggressively at all the other dogs and everyone around was smiling and laughing.  I was amazed.  And Instead of joining in, I said "Do you think we'd all be so forgiving if that was a SBT?  Makes you think doesn't it"  Needless to say, it fell on deaf ears.
Regardless of breed, I would treat each of my dogs the same way in this incidence.  In fact, I did own and Akita with aggression issues for many years but managed it correctly as I will my Cocker.
Thanks everyone for your input.  It did help calm a fraught situation.

I wonder if someone maybe was sat on a leg? tail? without realising.......  Could still be a health reason though.....  I've had my girl go in with a massive haematoma causing her pain and she was wagging her tail etc. at the vets.

> If it had been a staffie or a breed like that then you would all have been saying the dog needs to be pts.

You couldn't be more wrong.  There are many bull breed owners and lovers on here, and unlike the general public who believe everything the media tells them, here (and on many other forums) we look at the situation and the possible triggers first, NOT the breed.

I would agree each situation is different and not related to breed, but the age of the dog. I think most people on this forum have had dogs for many years so they have a wealth of experience.
I have a nearly thirteen year old English Springer Spaniel and she is exhibiting some changes in behaviour. She puts her front feet up on the back of the car so I can lift her into the back, and even though I am as carful and gentle as possible she has growled a couple of times as I lifted her back end in. never bitten, and once settled she is fine.
As it not all the time I can only assume that it must be if she in a slightly awkward position. She has also growled at the other dogs if she is in a corner, or if they are jumping about. I think she is just warning them not to knock or bang her as she is an old lady and a such a bit more fragile than she was.
She still likes to meet and greet people but she tends now to go out of the way if visitors and other family members dogs come.
If I have people come round who are not very dog savvy, I put the old girl in my bedroom which she thinks is great as she can ruffle the bed up, have a good nap or she has a good vantage point to look out of the window, and can see up and down the road and watch the world go by.
My eldest daughter was bitten in similar circumstances to Cracar's daughter, the dog  was lay sleeping on the sofa, and my then 4 year old went up to her, she put her hands either side of the dog and leaned over her, the dog woke up and because she was effectively hemmed in she bit her on the face. The difference was that she did not give any kind of warning she just attacked. At the time I was feeding my other daughter who was an eight month old baby. I could see it all happening, it was like it was in slow motion, but I could do nothing to stop it, it was so quick.
This dog had exhibited signs of aggression previously but it had just been a snap and we had ignored it or made excuses. We made the decision to have the dog PTS, as I felt I could no longer trust her around the children, the baby was starting to crawl, and would soon be starting to walk. The dog was six years old at the time, and it broke my heart to take her as most of the time she had been a happy, loving dog. But I had to put the welfare of the children first, and I would never have been able to go to the toilet or answer the door and leave the dog in the same room as the children.
I think you have to look at each scenario, and whilst the safety of children has to be the priority, what Cracar described was an out of character bite from an elderly dog, and she seems able and sensible enough to manage the situation.

> She puts her front feet up on the back of the car so I can lift her into the back, and even though I am as carful and gentle as possible she has growled a > couple of times as I lifted her back end in. never bitten, and once settled she is fine.

Ditto my 15 year old. Also when walking on country lanes - if a car is coming and I try a little too quickly to move him to the side of the road, he has growled once or twice. He has never growled at us until the last couple or months.

dorcas, your little springer sounds so much like our cocker!lol  Grumpy old madam.  She likes the help up but grumbles about it.  She just doesn't like being messed about at the rear end.  And she's so grumpy with our other cocker lately too.  She sat grumbling away in the vets too but when the vet spoke to her, she was all licks and waggy bum!  We stick her in our bed too when 'strange' kids come over.  She is just a bit long in the tooth to be bothered with the nonsense so instead of monitoring the dog the wholetime, we give her a bit of peace in there.
Funny thing is, we were talking today and my FIL has a terrier puppy who is fear aggressive with kids.  I keep my lot well away from the house since she's arrived as she really is a nightmare and he laughs her bad behaviour off, making her worse.  I said to OH, imagine it had been her that bit our daughter, I would have demanded he did something about the dog but because it's our faithful old girl, I wouldn't dream of PTS for this.  I am prepared to supervise constantly and I have space where I can keep them separate during the day so hopefully it's just been a wee bad day.

Would it be worth having her thyroid checked??

I did mention the thyroid but my vet didn't think it was worth checking.  She had this other disease in her mind but I was quite reluctant to start testing for it as my dog has absolutely no other symptoms other than lethargy.  She was thinking it was an auto immune Amnemic disease but I have severe doubts as we have another cocker going through AI disease and she is nothing like this.  I did say this to the vet but she must've had that in her head so wouldn't let it go!
Little booble seems a lot better now and is wandering around all the kids wagging her tail looking for crumbs and pets.

If she has lethargy and sudden aggression, thyroid IS worth checking - very few vets grasp the full extent of possible symptoms, or know how to read reference ranges.  As an example, 3 of my 4 hypothyroid dogs were still in range when first diagnosed and every time, I've had to get confirmation from Dr Dodds to persuade the vets to trial treatment and in 2 of them, it's worked beautifully - 3rd I'm still waiting to hear back from my vet.  And the 4th dog took 3 years to diagnose because it took him that long to drop out of range - this was before I learned what I know now.

I would get it tested BUT get it ALL tested - not just T4 or T4/TSH as vets usually do.  T4, free T4, T3, free T3, TgAA antibodies (TSH if you like but really, it's very unreliable).  You may well find it's cheaper to send it to Dr D (of Hemopet) in california - certainly is for me and my vets can't actually get all the tests.

One other thing - don't be swayed, if you want it tested, ask for it.  When I finally got Remy diagnosed, I walked into the vet with instruction from Hemopet in hand and told them what we were doing.  No ifs, no buts, I simply told them and I've done that ever since.

I agree it's worth getting a thyroid check. Also is it possible to get a ramp for the sofa so your dog can get herself on and off without having to be lifted? Hope things are ok now, well done to your little girl for forgiving the dog. :-)

Totally agree with Nikita's post, I would say thyroid testing is a must and do all the tests not the basics that most vets do.

I also agree with Nikita's post.  Not sure if anyone has mentioned an eye check too?

And of course being cockers, who are renowned for ear problems, has her hearing been checked or any painful ear infection.

She's got an eye check at the vet as that was a concern of mine too.  She is going 'selectively' deaf!lol  but it wasn't that as she knew she was there.  Also, her ears have always been good.  I've never had a bother with spaniels ears and infact, have more trouble with my mainecoon with manky wax!  She's never been bothered with infections or suchlike. 
Meant to add, eye's were fine.  OK for a dog her age the vet said.  Bit of clouding but nothing notable.

It's a strange one because she is back to being her normal self.  She is seeking out the little one to snuggle up with on the sofa in the evening.  I am very wary now but I let them while I'm there as they do love each other so.  My daughter isn't a kid who annoys dogs or even 'baby' them, she just likes to absentmindedly stroke them while watching tv in the evening.  And of course, the old cocker loves this.

This morning as I was feeding my two one stood on the other and really made her squeal, I think she just caught her at a funny angle against the bed.  Neither are soft dogs so I was really surprised but she was fine very soon after.  Thing is if she were a different dog she might well have gone in with a bite not a squeal.  Maybe your oldie just hurt at that moment and lashed out.

We lost Ruby this morning.  She collapsed through the night and was vomiting but she just wanted to sleep in her bed so I sat up watching her all night but this morning she was struggling for breath so I took her to the emergency vet.  He said she was very pale and did a scan of her abdomen which showed a large mass on her spleen, which had been causing her to feel unwell then fine, for a while, maybe explaining her behaviour last week.  He could also see bleeding into her abdomen and other dark areas and advised us to PTS as she was feeling really poorly and their was nothing he could do.
I took her and her 3 friends to our favourite woods where we buried our beloved friend.  Run free, Booble  x

Oh I am so sorry to read this cracar.

R I P Ruby run free sweetheart xx

So sorry for your loss,
Run free Ruby R.I.P

So sorry, it is good to know she was not just being a naughty girl but really was unwell - out of pain now but you have the loss to deal with and although never easy you know you had no choice.

Poor girl ,so sorry x

So sorry for your loss. Run free Ruby out of pain now.

Oh my dear, I am so sorry :-(

Run free Ruby -x-

So sorry Cracar.

So, so sorry to read of your loss, run free Ruby.

Ah, so sorry for you. You did everything right and let her go when she needed to. Run free Ruby x

So sorry to hear this.

You have done right for your dear old girl, and at least her recent grumpiness now makes sense.  She was not naughty, just uncomfortable.

RIP Ruby, and all good wishes to you and your family at this sad time.

I am sorry to hear about Ruby and hope you are Ok ( well you won t be - but just thinking about you). I lost my lovely old girl Thistle a year ago to cancer of the spleen- she was 11. like Ruby she had a long (ish) and very happy life and at the end of the day what more can you ask for?

So sorry to read this, poor girl she enjoyed her last few days though.  You did the right thing for her throughout especially by dealing with the bite the way you did and not allowing it to affect her relationship with your daughter.

Run free Ruby

How sorry I am to hear about your old lady.  Run painfree at the Bridge, Ruby! x

I'm so sorry.  I had nothing good to contribute but I've been following your thread.  My condolences on your loss of Ruby.

So sorry to read this - RIP little one x

I'm so sorry; I agree 100% that it was the discomfort of this that made her act so out of character before. Sleep well, Ruby; all is forgiven.

Thanks everyone.  Those lovely messages really do help.  Treacle, you are right.  She had a fabulously spoiled life and was very much loved.  She went for run in the fields everyday with her daughter and her doggy pack and had a fat, full tummy nearly all the time! She was groomed every 2 months and slept in a comfy bed in our room as topdog.  By far the nicest cocker I have every known or owned.  I will miss her but am so glad she was my dog.
PS  All is certainly forgiven with regards to her behaviour over the past while.

Very sorry for your loss cracar x Sounds like she had a fantastic life.

Run free Ruby x