After a million years of teaching dogs to free stand I'm now having to teach (and learn myself!) a stack. How on earth do you convince a jack-in-the-box that standing side-on being held is a Good Thing?

Can you not just teach the stand and then allow to touch, same as a free stand except they need to allow you to move the foot and hold the tail and head - many people seem to do it with food in the head hand but I have never tried to actually teach a dog to be stacked always the stand and be assessed.

Lol, the boxer people at class when stacking there pups use a big block of some sort of food, they hold it in front of the pups face so it can chew at it then they move the legs white it's distracted. There so focused on the food they don't seem to care what the owners is doing or where.

Another thought Jan, why not start a new fashion and free stand your new dog, why not the judge should not mind at all, make a pleasant change to see a dog stood and nature intended.

Little and often is the way to go. They dont need to stand perfectly at first, just so long as you can touch tail and head ;-) They will eventually get the idea. As you stand them you give them the 'stand' command. In saying that I have taught my latest one to free stand as it was much easier :-) It's only now, that he is 20 months old, that I can stack him decently. He was a right fidget.

I am having to learn the opposite, after having dogs that are stacked, trying to get my youngster to free stand is a nightmare !! She will stand 4 square and then moves one back leg forward. (Like a GSD) She is fine if I walk her into a stand all four square, but if she has to hold the position while the judges go up and down the line then she will move out of position. Any suggestions gratefully received.
With the stacking, I have found that just holding them in position for a very short period and stroking them gently works well. I say staaand then treat immediately. If I only get a couple of seconds to start with I am happy with that, and I do it as often as I can, advert breaks, between programmes. The more you do it the easier it gets.
Don't worry about trying to make them stand for too long at first, just extend the length of time till you give the treat. If you try and hold them in position for too long to start with they will get bored and wriggle and squirm to get free.
My last litter were fairly used to being stood from 5 weeks old, as a few were going to show homes, they were stood on a table so they could be viewed or photographed.
The puppy I kept from the litter has been the easiest one I have ever had to train, but then she is very food orientated and I think she would jump summersaults for a piece of sausage or chicken.

>just holding them in position for a very short period and stroking them gently works well.

I don't have enough hands to hold head, tail, feet and stroke her as well!

For freestanding it doesn't matter if puppies move their feet out of position a bit - they're not expected to stand like statues. :-)

I don't have enough hands to hold head, tail, feet and stroke her as well!

Don't worry about the tail to start with, put one hand under the chin, and the other under the tummy. Once they get the idea you can move the hand under the tummy to the tail.

With regarding the free standing, she will be moving up to Post Graduate soon and still moves her feet. Any tips ?
If I move her and get the two back ones square she will then move a front one forward.

But when she is coming back toward the judge and stands she stand four square. I am sure she does it just to wind me up !!

I agree with Lindy Lou, this is the way I've taught the stack to my Irish Setters for 40 years. I'm fairly firm with them but I only ask for a few seconds at first and then it's loads of praise and a game afterwards. I do this 5 or 6 times a day but strictly for seconds only then build up over time.

JG, I would teach the free stack too, they need both skills in the ring.

Dawn R.

Here's a link to an American handler giving training tips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYM6qIlOUdM

Dawn R.

I start training my pups from when they can walk, they are placed on the table each time I pick them up for what ever reason, just for a few seconds at first, the table is in front of a mirror so I can see what is happening without looking down at the dog.

I use string cheese for them to nibble at to keep their head occupied whilst I adjust the other parts, we don't hold the tail just the head, by 12 weeks they have a very nice stack which they achieve easily with minor tweaks, the trick is a little and often and finish on a high.

I watched the Shiba bob judging yesterday one was free stood the other stacked,  it made a big difference I thought and I preferred the non stacked one who's was twinkling with life and energy.

I see most people concentrate on head and feet first then tail once the rest in done.

> I preferred the non stacked one who's was twinkling with life and energy.
>

This is why I hope stacking never creeps into our breed in the UK, they are stacked in the USA, and I notice in Australia too, and I think ti takes away their character.

This is why I hope stacking never creeps into our breed in the UK, they are stacked in the USA, and I notice in Australia too, and I think ti takes away their character.

I agree -and so any people can't do it to save their lives either (don't blame them as you CANNOT see what you are doing unless in front of a mirror) so the dogs end up looking like rocking horses. You even see photos like that of winners in the dog papers -makes me cringe. Give me a free standing natural dog any day. :)

She is fine if I walk her into a stand all four square, but if she has to hold the position while the judges go up and down the line then she will move out of position. Any suggestions gratefully received.

It's all just practice and attention. If you walk a step towards the dog you will usually find they move into position, and after a while you can start giving a command for them to do it themselves -we use "back".  To get the attention we find hand in pocket works wonders -especially if there is a crinkly bag inside the pocket. Tends to work better than a visible treat, especially for getting the ears to be used well. Also hand on handler's mouth pretending to be eating, or making small noises. You can also practice at home with treats and you only give the treat when the feet are four square. It's amazing how even young pups work out quickly that moving a paw will make the treat appear, and of course if the dog is properly built, the best stand is the most natural one for them, so will feel the best and easiest anyway for them.

This is all pretty interesting reading to me as a newbie in a stacked breed, and to showing in general. I have a lively youngster who started enjoying shows more when I decided to forget stacking and let him free stand. I don't show much, and I rarely get a good 'four square' pose, but his attitude is hugely preferable to me when free stood.

My only concern is how much of an oddball I seem in a class of stacked pros :p

If you do well, then others will tend to copy.

Dorcas I feel your pain, my girl does just the same, she can stand perfectly still when no one is looking, however as soon as its the line up or the judge comes over she moves and its a back leg gsd styley too, all well and good if she was one..
I think I'm going to have to move back to the American way of handling and hold the head in place so I have a spare arm to move the back leg easier, keeps the front still too!!

Would much rather judge a free stacked dog, suppose it is difficult on the table but if it is a floor stood dog give me a slightly untidy free stood dog against a stacked one any day, so few people do their dogs any favours when they stack always pulling something into an unnatural position. Like dogs moved on a lose lead they just do not move naturally with either their front feet off the ground or with their noses stuck in the air so they can't see where they are going, give me a sniffer any time.

My breeder told me to put dog on a table with front feet next to the edge of table. You may have to get ready to catch pup if they step off table. Must admit training a Bullmastiff to stand was so much easier than a Boxer!

> and so any people can't do it to save their lives either (don't blame them as you CANNOT see what you are doing unless in front of a mirror) so the dogs end up looking like rocking horses.

I am going to disagree with you..well as far as my breed is concerned. They are table dogs & you can see exactly how they are stood. As regards to stacking once gone over there are those(handlers) who stand, whilst there are also those...like myself...who mainly crouch/semi kneel & see very much the same as on the table.

Train at bottom of stairs or wall so that when she puts her legs back she feels it, that way she'll start to recognise where her feet should be, silly as it sounds some dogs just don't have a clue where their legs and feet are in relation to their bodies.

Similarly if a dog creeps forwards use the top step on your stairs so they 'think' they're on the table then really exciting treats and lots of praise when they've got it right and finish training for that session.  Gradually over a few wks you can get them to understand how they are in the world in relation to how you want them standing in the ring.

My bitch did both, if I could get one end right the other would go off and when I got both right her damn tail would drop - they do like to mess us about coz it gets them lots of attention so finishing on a good note is great ie first time right its done.  If she persists in messing I just finish the training without a reward, only took 2 session like that for her to decid messing wasn't leading to extra food or persuasion.

Do you mean put the back legs up against a wall or step or the side they move alongside it?

How are you getting on with the training JG?

Dawn R.

>Train at bottom of stairs or wall so that when she puts her legs back she feels it,

I'm being very dim but you've totally lost me. :o Do I stand her on the stairs, or facing away from the stairs, or what?

I would think you stand at the bottom of the stairs, but not on the stairs, so that she will feel the bottom stair as she steps back. This way she would learn the correct stance, but only if you SET her in the correct stance ;-) If she is standing wrong all she will do is learn how to stand wrongly :-)

I do the same, our breed is stacked but I don't stack mine. I think the same as a few on here who have already mentioned that dogs look more full of life free stacked, both mine are definately much happier like that and I figure that a happy looking dog free stacked in a stacked breed must be better than a stacked one not enjoying themselves