A collie puppy has been eye tested and the result is "mildly affected with a score of 3".  I have been on as many collies sites as I can find and cannot make head nor tail of them.  Is there any one reading who can explain in simple language what it means?  For example is 3 a high score or low score.

If you are talking Collie Eye Anomaly a pup can't be 'mildly affected'. It will be either 'Affected' or 'Unaffected', there's no half way measure. You sure it was referring to Collie Eye Anomaly? Is the pup in the UK?

there isn't a score as far as I know, but certainly they can be mildly affected or terribly affected - ask the eye tester what it means... they will tell you when you're there.  Some dogs have a small patch of eye affected others have more, then there's colobomas which were once thought to be part of CEA but show up when the dog is genetically 'clear'....

The only eye condition that collies are tested for and graded is Goniodysgenesis. And even this test has not always been graded. Gonioscopy is the test for Goniodysgenesis,which is the condition that  indicates a predisposition to Glaucoma. In Border Collies this is Narrow Angle Glaucoma and a Grade/score 3 would indicate a narrowing of the drainage canals in the eye and a thickening of one of the supporting ligaments. Of all the eye conditions a dog can suffer, Glaucoma is by far the worst. It is extremely painful and leads to blindness. There is no cure at the present time. A score of 3 may be significant but this depends on the pedigree of the dog/puppy. A very aggressive and hereditary form of Glaucoma appeared in the breed in 2008/9 .Related dogs developed Glaucoma or were found to have a high degree of Goniodysgenesis which in some dogs developed into Glaucoma. On the other hand, widespread testing of all Border Collies has uncovered a degree of of Goniodysgenesis in many unrelated lines within the breed. It is felt that this is not significant. If it were , we would have had many more cases of Glaucoma over a long period of time. I could not advise you further without knowing the pedigree of the puppy. Also, it is usual to do the Gonioscopy test at around 8-12 months.

The other eye conditions that Collies are tested for CEA (Collie Eye Anomaly )-for which there is a DNA test, CPRA (Centralised Progressive Retinal Atrophy) and PLL (Primary Lens Luxation). I have not heard of grading for these conditions.

These puppies are both rough and smooth collies.  The sire is clear the dam is a carrier.  One pup is clear, another very mildly affected score of 1 and the others mildly affected score of 3.

Am Baffled ! If you are talking about Rough Collies ( i.e. 'Lassie' type) and Smooth Collies ,neither breed is tested for Goniodysgenesis at the present time. Collie Eye Anomaly is an issue in both breeds but I have never heard of grading in this test -normally done when pups are around 6 weeks of age and then annually if bred from. Either a puppy or dog is affected or unaffected. It does happen that a puppy tested at 6 weeks is affected but the eye can 'go normal' as puppy grows. Puppy is still affected and of course DNA testing would prove this to be the case. The DNA test identifies Normal ( clear of CEA) Carrier ( not affected but carrying a copy of the gene ) and Affected ( clinically and with two copies of the gene). One Carrier parent mated to a Normal ( clear) parent will not produce Affected puppies but each puppy has a 50% chance of being a Carrier. In effect , this could produce a whole litter of Carriers or even ( lucky for some) a whole litter of DNA Normals. It does not mean 50% of the litter either/or , a common fallacy. So, this grading is new to me .

>>These puppies are both rough and smooth collies.>>

Maybe rough and smooth refers to coat length and they are BC pups??

I wondered about that too !

Off line for a few days. Hope mystery solved during absence !

> Maybe rough and smooth refers to coat length and they are BC pups??

Apparently, Rough (long coated) collies do occasionally turn up in litters of Smooth Collies.

The sire is clear the dam is a carrier.  One pup is clear, another very mildly affected score of 1 and the others mildly affected score of 3.

this is genetically impossible... whatever the breed of these collies (rough/smooth/border) if the sire is clear then the pups will not be affected... unless you mean that the sire is clear by physical exam rather than genetically clear, and what breeder will put a carrier (which has had to be DNA tested) to an untested (DNA) dog?  You'd want to be sure that the dog was genetically clear..... again, where has this score come from?

Beginning to think this poster may have been spun a yarn - you know what I mean, if you don't know the answer try and blind with a flow of meaningless words - my advice is do not consider a pup from this litter as you seem to be being misled.

> Apparently, Rough (long coated) collies do occasionally turn up in litters of Smooth Collies.

Yes this can and does happen as it s not that long really since they were separated into the two distinct breeds.

However I do think we need to clear up the exact breed being discussed and if the sire and dams dna status is confirmed.

There is a litter bred from two Smooth Collie parents which contains several recessive Rough puppies around at the moment, so I would guess it is this litter the OP is looking at.

Some eye testers will certainly 'unofficially' grade CEA affected puppies, although it is obviously correct that strictly speaking they are either affected or unaffected. In my experience, they will normally grade from 1-5 in these circumstances, so 3 would be moderately affected rather than mild.

M.

Still a bit confused with this - if the sire was clear and the dam a carrier what is the proportion of pups likely to be in theory - how many clear and how many carriers and is it possible for any of the pups to be affected?

I can't understand how you can have an affected pup from this mating - would have thought they could only be clear or carrier - can someone explain in terms a idiot can understand - please.

>The sire is clear the dam is a carrier.  One pup is clear, another very mildly affected score of 1 and the others mildly affected score of 3.

Not possible. If one parent is clear then no puppies can be affected, but they can be carriers if the clear parent was mated to a carrier or an affected (in which case all will be carriers but none affected). So either the sire isn't clear or he isn't the sire!

Not possible. If one parent is clear then no puppies can be affected,

No wonder I was getting confused - so this is as I said earlier a load of tosh!

These will be clinical exam results, not genetic tests. Not sure of general breed status for Smooths, but certainly in Roughs the vast majority are believed to be genetically affected - with an already restricted gene pool, there is no way they could be excluded from the gene pool.

These will be clinical exam results, not genetic tests

What will be, the parents or the pups? Surely you can't declare a stud clear unless you do a genetic test? Getting confused again.

>These will be clinical exam results, not genetic tests.

Is it possible to determine whether an animal is a carrier without a DNA test, unless, of course, one of her parents was affected?

I've rechecked the KC health page and it definitely says sire is unaffected and dam is a carrier.  So does this mean that it is possible for pups to be affected? Albeit mildly and one more mild than the other?  Also as regards test reading 1 - 5 these readings were 1- 3.   I've also been on the opticians site and he only uses 1 - 3.  My question is will or when could these pups go blind?

'Unaffected' means that, at the moment there is no detectable sign of physical impairment, but not that there will never be; unless he's been DNA tested he could be clear, a carrier, or late-onet affected. 'Clear' means that the animal is genetically clear of the condition so will never be affected by it and cannot pass it on to its offspring.

Ah, becoming more understandable, originally it was said the sire was clear but it seems he is not clear just unaffected which means that both the sire and dam could be carriers or the stud could actually be a sufferer. Well let's face it if the pups are affected then the stud can not be clear and may well even be suffering.

Have I got the hang of it now?

I've been eye testing Rough Collie puppies for 30 years with a variety of examiners.  Some give a score of 1-5 depending on the size of the CEA affected spot, other just say clear or affected.

I have had a puppy pronounced clear when the sire and dam have been affected.  I've had 17 puppies from 2 litters affected when the 2 dams were affected and the studs tested clear at 6 weeks.  Many years ago I had an opthalmologist give a clear certificate to 2 puppies in one litter who were both born blind in one eye but not due to CEA and write on the certificate, these puppies will have no problem with their vision!

To the OP, the thing to remember is that puppies affected with CEA will not go blind.  It does not progress so that the degree that they are affected at 6 weeks will not get worse.  It also isn't a painful condition.  Professor Bedford, the top eye man, used to say that if they wanted to read a newpaper they would need to wear glasses - not a serious consideration for a dog!

I've had affected bitches catch snow balls that I threw in a whiteout when it was still snowing and I couldn't see the snowballs as they fell from the sky.  So whilst in an ideal world CEA could be irradicated (although I've made no progress in 30 years even when working under the opthalmic specialists direction!) there are far more serious things to consider when buying a puppy than affected with CEA, eg coloboma, bad temperament etc.

well it would better explain if it were rough collies as pretty much all of them in UK until very recently (with imports) have been affected, or at the minimum carriers... it stands to reason that you cannot 'progress' to clear in this situation - for this you need DNA tests and clear dogs.... which has been possible with other breeds, although CEA is still widepread... eg in shelties.  with 'just' an eye tet and widespread CEA it's been impossible.... now though it should be possible, although it will take imported dogs

>as pretty much all of them in UK until very recently (with imports) have been affected, or at the minimum carriers

Affected for all pure UK lines tested, I believe - and I think anyone who had DNA tested a pure UK bred Rough Collie and found even carrier status would have been singing it from the roof tops!

M.

it stands to reason that you cannot 'progress' to clear in this situation - for this you need DNA tests and clear dogs

Oh hindsight is such a valuable resource!  All breeders could do over the years is work under the guidance of the experts and 'in the light of current knowledge' which is what good breeders have been doing. :)

In theory, mating a tested clear at 6 weeks dog to an affected bitch should have produced a probably result of 25% clear carrier but it didn't many times over.  The experts accepted disagreed on the mode of inheritance and if they couldn't agree, then breeders following their advice didn't stand much of a chance.  You cannot judge what has been done in the past 'in the light of current knowledge' now.

now though it should be possible, although it will take imported dogs
Unfortunately many of the imported dogs portorting to be clear IMO bear little resemblance to our UK breed standard and I do like a Rough Collie to look like a Rough Collie. :)

I think anyone who had DNA tested a pure UK bred Rough Collie and found even carrier status would have been singing it from the roof tops!
Definitely!  I certainly know of no geneticlly clear Roughs in the UK  although before DNA testing, I did know of one well used stud dog who didn't produce an affected puppy to affected bitches until he was 9 years old!  If it was as easy as some seem to think, we would have sorted it years ago eh? :)

My point to the original poster is that as Peter Bedford said to me many times, there's more to a dog that it's eyes and CEA is a non-progressive, painfree problem.  The fact that the pups have been tested and have no detatched retina or coloboma is good and I certainly wouldn't worry about Grade 3 CEA.  The pup will not go blind from CEA. :)

> I certainly know of no genetically clear Roughs in the UK

Gosh I didn't realise the situation was that bad.

> Unfortunately many of the imported dogs portorting to be clear IMO bear little resemblance to our UK breed standard

Still worth breeding from I would say, even if it takes a few generations to get to something you would want to show, those cea clear genes are worth it I would think. A pointer doesn't look much like a dalmatian, but a few generations down you wouldn't know the difference bar that all important gene :-)

Blimey we are indeed lucky in silken windhounds, we have CEA carriers (presumably thanks to sheltie influence in the original long haired whippets) but we don't breed carriers to carriers and there has never been an clinically affected silken born, soon there will no longer be carriers. The benefits of a relatively new breed with full dna profiling. All you can do now is try and improve the situation, by using these clear but untypical dogs.

Oh hindsight is such a valuable resource!  All breeders could do over the years is work under the guidance of the experts and 'in the light of current knowledge' which is what good breeders have been doing. :-)

In theory, mating a tested clear at 6 weeks dog to an affected bitch should have produced a probably result of 25% clear carrier but it didn't many times over.  The experts accepted disagreed on the mode of inheritance and if they couldn't agree, then breeders following their advice didn't stand much of a chance.  You cannot judge what has been done in the past 'in the light of current knowledge' now.

now though it should be possible, although it will take imported dogs
Unfortunately many of the imported dogs portorting to be clear IMO bear little resemblance to our UK breed standard and I do like a Rough Collie to look like a Rough Collie. :-)

I think anyone who had DNA tested a pure UK bred Rough Collie and found even carrier status would have been singing it from the roof tops!
Definitely!  I certainly know of no geneticlly clear Roughs in the UK  although before DNA testing, I did know of one well used stud dog who didn't produce an affected puppy to affected bitches until he was 9 years old!  If it was as easy as some seem to think, we would have sorted it years ago eh? :-)

My point to the original poster is that as Peter Bedford said to me many times, there's more to a dog that it's eyes and CEA is a non-progressive, painfree problem.  The fact that the pups have been tested and have no detatched retina or coloboma is good and I certainly wouldn't worry about Grade 3 CEA.  The pup will not go blind from CEA.

Mmmm not sure what brought this on, I was merely stating the situation - basically what you're saying, but a little more clear for those who perhaps aren't aware of what DNA tests (readily available now about 8 or so years) have done.... also that if you have a population of affected dogs you cannot get to clear.... I am certainly not criticising anyone, merely stating that the breeders were on a hiding to nothing given the situation in rough collies... please don't put words/thoughts into my mouth/head which aren't there....

it would have been helpful if we'd known which breed the OP was talking about and if they were clear about DNA tests/ status of the parents...

there is a lot of misconception amongst breeders and so feel that most pet buyers may well know even less...

whilst CEA in general doesn't cause too much problem for individual dogs, it can be bad and for me I'd want to try and remove it from the breed (fortunately with borders and shelties we have that opportunity)

Interestingly though if this is a smoothie litter  there are DNA carriers and clears in their gene pool

Could the kennel club not allow crossing of smooth and Roughs again to get clears into the Rough population, or has type become so totally different between the two? 

They (smooths) certainly seem to be taller than the roughs.

Would think that the Smooths on the whole would be similar to using the imported lines but as I only now have a passing interest  thats only my thoughts.