Hi, I have always used Panacur 10% daily from 40 days, without any noticeable problem, but after just losing (re-absorbed?) a litter of 8 (scanned at 35 days, very clear, ended up with just 1 live pup born, about the right size for one of 7 or 8), I have done some research as to what may have caused this - and Panacur wormer came up as quite a risky thing to give :( I don't want to risk any harm to my next litter (due beginning of July), but also feel a little uncomfortable about not worming my bitch at all! Can I ask what other breeders do/don't do regarding worming please? Obviously I will be worming pups at 2 weeks - do I just do mum then as well? Which wormer do you all use? Thanks in advance :-)

I never, ever worm pregnant bitches. I worm with Drontal at time of mating and then again at the same time pups are done. Pups done with Drontal puppy liquid. I really don't like the idea of Panacur at all, being used for so long.

Thank you :-) I was told to use it by a breeder I have much respect for, but after doing some research, I do think I will NOT be using it again :-( My dogs do not really 'get' worms, so the bitch hasn't been done for a few months which is why I am asking! I will order some Drontal in, and thanks again :-)

I know a lot of breeders swear by Panacur but I would be unhappy about giving a pregnant bitch any drugs or chemicals unless absolutely necessary.
Being old enough to remember the thalidomide children who were born due to mothers taking an ant-nausea drug, when I was pregnant I never took so much as an aspirin, as I was worried that it may cause damage to my baby, and I have always treated my canine girls in the same way.
If the bitch has been wormed regularly, then a dose of Drontal prior to mating, and then mum is wormed again at the same time as the puppies, should be fine.
Have never seen worms in any of my adults or puppies.

I have used Panacur 10% in 6 generations of pregnant bitches, (20 litters) without issue.

It is one of few wormers extensively tested in pregnancy with a wide margin of error.

Absorption normally occurs before panacur would start to be used anyway, after 6 weeks in whelp you would get abortion or stillbirth if the wormer was the issue.

Ditto Brainless. Panacur is the safest wormer around for normal dogs, with the highest margin for error, and in pregnancy isn't given until after absorption will have occurred.

Yes, worm mum at the same time as pups because they will be reinfecting each other.

Yes my vet still insists that you cannot get a safer wormer than Panacur for Mum in prgnancy and in very young puppies. I know how difficult it is for any one with a pregnant bitch and whatever it is you may look back later and wonder. I have mine given the herpes jab since I lost an entire litter but still worry about that. I had wondered about trying Milbemax for Mum next time as is says safe in pregnancy but if anything happened I would always wonder.

Sorry to hear just one pup was born, but I hope it is thriving.

I also use Panacur on my bitches, as has my breeder friend and mentor ... she's been using it since the year dot, with no problems at all. I will be using Panacur with my next litter without any qualms. Once pups born and need worming I use either Panacur or Drontal Puppy, happy with both. They have different recommendations, Drontal being to worm at 2, 4, 6 and 8 weeks, and I think Panacur is 3, 5 and 8. I usually worm Mum along with the pups at either 4 weeks (Drontal) or 3 (Panacur).

I've used Milbemax at 42 days with both large & toy breeds. It's just one tablet given once. We've had no problems. Don't know your breed - ours aren't Collie types.

A lady who used one of my boys at stud was advised to use Milbemax by her vet for her pregnant bitch. She whelped 10 puppies, most were dead, several had died a while ago and a couple had died soon before whelping. It was a disaster. I spoke to my vets and they never give Milbemax during pregnancy.

Thanks everyone, mine is a collie breed so milbemax is not recommended. I know that I may be being over cautious, but providing I do no harm by not worming her until pups are here I would rather do that, this time at least :-) Pup is wonderful, thank you, 13 weeks now and full of himself! Thanks for your replies and your time :-)

Hi, as a BC owner I have been concerned about using Milbemax (and in fact wont use it as the times I've given it to my dogs it's caused explosive diarrhea :-o), and a whole group of other drugs, even though the number of BCs affected is tiny. For peace of mind I've carried out MDR1 testing. Can recommend:

http://www.animalgenetics.eu/Canine/Canine-disease/canine-MDR1-Multi-drug-Resistance.html

the test is just £32.00 (cheek swab), considerably cheaper than other labs. Enjoy you pup :-D

I find it's easy to tell the pups whose dam wasn't wormed during pregnancy. :-( They're generally physically underdeveloped compared to pups of a similar age which weren't born with a significant worm burden.

> providing I do no harm by not worming her until pups are here I would rather do that,

Even if your bitch appears worm free, ti is in the last three weeks of pregnancy that the encysted larva in her tissues become active and cross the placenta.  This is the reason for giving Panacur so that pups worm burden is virtually nil, meaning healthier pups at birth.

Toxacara Canis is linked entirely to the bitch reproductive cycle, which si why few it is msotly foudn in puppies and entire pregnant bitches, and hardly at all in adult dogs that have not bveen mixing with pups or adult bitches, unless they pick it up in soil where the above have deposited eggs.

As far as I could work out Milbemax does not deal with encysted and early stage larva, so would not see the point in using it in a pregnancy bitch unless she was wormy, and that should not be the case as I'd expect most breeders with a planned pregnancy would have wormed before mating.

I always worm when the bitch comes in season and start the Panacur 40 days after the last mating.

> they're generally physically underdeveloped compared to pups of a similar age which weren't born with a significant worm burden.

According to the book of the bitch my breed at birth are on average 10 - 12oz at birth.  the smallest pup I ever had was 6oz (in my first litter), and a bitch I whelped for a friend had pups 9 - 11oz.

Since then most of my pups have been 12 - 14oz, and in the last few generations often 14 - 16oz, so that I now tend to think of a 12oz pups as small.

The bitches producing these pups are the same size.

May be co-incidence, but having seen the horror of a 6 week old rescued litter with a heavy worm burden (obviously neither Mum or pups had eve been wormed) and how awful their condition was some nearly dead with anaemia, when they finally were wormed.  I consider keeping puppies from being infested is a priority.

>but having seen the horror of a 6 week old rescued litter with a heavy worm burden (obviously neither Mum or pups had eve been wormed) and how awful their condition was some nearly dead with anaemia, when they finally were wormed.  I consider keeping puppies from being infested is a priority.

I couldn't agree more. When you've seen 6 week old puppies the same size as healthy ones are at 4 weeks, really skinny but with enormous pot bellies, you'd never take the risk.

That's how they were plus staring coats and listless eyes.

I find it's easy to tell the pups whose dam wasn't wormed during pregnancy. :-( They're generally physically underdeveloped compared to pups of a similar age which weren't born with a significant worm burden.

You could NEVER say that about mine!!

I too worm at the beginning of a season I intending mating through, the other dogs in the household get done then too, then I start the daily worming at day 42 using Panacur 10% till 2 days post whelping and each time the pups are wormed, this regime was recommended by my mentor and other breeders in my breed.

I saw what a hand reared 10 day old pup passed when her dam hadn't been wormed, it was horrendous, the pup was pot bellied and was taking in very little feed and the worming was brought forward and had to be repeated every 10 days till the pup was clear, after the first worming the pup looked like a deflated balloon.

I wouldn't take the risk of this happening to any of my pups.

But if the mum and pups are wormed at 2 weeks - they won't be 'pot bellied and undersized at 6 weeks' will they? I have bred a few litters over about 20 odd years, and always have used panacur without a problem that I have noticed. This litter due is from the dam of the bitchI just lost pups from, mated to the sire of that single pup, and I am now totally confused as to what is best for her and them :-/ Still have a few weeks to make up my mind I guess! Thanks for all the opinions though :-)

But the problem is the worms lay eggs and there is nothing that deals with that so we need to reduce the amount of worms to nil if possible. I agree though it is all a worry even though I have used Panacur for years I still think anything given to a [regnant bitch is a worry.

But if the mum and pups are wormed at 2 weeks - they won't be 'pot bellied and undersized at 6 weeks' will they?

Indeed -and mum wormed at time of mating. I've most certainly never had a pot bellied puppy -at any age. I do however know of litters in two different large breeds where several pups died after being wormed with Panacur, hence I will not touch it.

I find it's easy to tell the pups whose dam wasn't wormed during pregnancy. :-( They're generally physically underdeveloped compared to pups of a similar age which weren't born with a significant worm burden.

My last litter were all big bruisers with lovely silky coats !!!! Not a pot belly in sight !!!

I don't think you can generalise, and a poor bitch who is carrying a worm burden herself will produce puppies carrying worms.
But a healthy bitch who has been regularly wormed does not need to be given extra chemicals.
I know that there are a lot of breeders on here who swear by Panacur during pregnancy, but there are other options available and people asking the question should be given all available options. Rather than scare tactics.

>But a healthy bitch who has been regularly wormed does not need to be given extra chemicals.

Wormers given when the bitch isn't pregnant have no effect on the encysted worms which will are reanimated by the pregnancy hormones and reinfect her gut. She gut may be clear of worms when she's mated but she'll certainly have infected herself by the time she whelps, and the pups will also have been infected.

Toxocara lifecycle

"In older dogs, patent infections can also occur, but larval encystment in tissues is more common.  Encysted stages are reactivated in female dogs during late pregnancy and infect by the transplacental and transmammary routes the puppies"

I'd always use something to minimise the possibility of a worm burden than not worm at all.

I bought a puppy years ago that had a worm burden and my daughter contracted worms. The whole family had to be wormed.....it was an absolute nightmare.

I use Panacur and have not had any problems with Dam or puppies.

>  I spoke to my vets and they never give Milbemax during pregnancy.

I used Milbemax the first time on my vet's recommendation. We had no problems whatsoever so have continued to use it. I prefer it to Panacur as it's given in a single dose.

I have never seen worms in my puppies when worming them, so I assume it does its job. Still, each of us to our own.

> I use Panacur and have not had any problems with Dam or puppies.

Another one here who swears by it.  I have never had problems with it even with a very tiny breed.

Just found this thread. Have never felt comfortable with wormers during pregnancy, or any drugs for that matter. I too remember Thalidomide ( trade name Distaval -I remember that too !) -my mother was prescribed it during her pregnancy with a younger sibling but fortunately refused to take it. Anyway, my regime is a good clear out with Drontal (1:10kg ) at the beginning of the season, if intending to mate, and then every two weeks post partum along with puppy worming-Drontal suspension for them. I was advised to worm mum at 4-5 days post delivery but no longer do that and I've never had a problem . I worm my  adult dogs  every 3 months -with Drontal. I do  understand, however , that Panacur is the only wormer effective against Giardia.