You will know in my litter I finished with just one girl puppy. She went to her new home on Monday and they have been to the vet to-day and they found a couple of murmurs. I have never had this before and so wanted to know how you might deal with it. I am happy to have puppy back for a full refund and to see my vet.
I have tried phoning them back but they were out.
I have had the boy puppy to my vet this morning no problem found.

If they are only 8 weeks then this may well be an innocent flow murmur (immaturity) which will have gone by the next visit for the second jabs or by 12 weeks.

Did the vet elaborate on the kind of murmur?

In the past pups didn't go for their first jabs until 10 weeks, now they are going earlier more Innocent murmurs are picked (and owners/breeders frightened to death) up in breeds where there aren't heart issues.

The last bitch puppy I kept, I was told by the vet at vaccination time that she had a grade 'whatever' heart murmur and would need to see a specialist

I queried whether it was right to vaccinate her in view of this and was told it was fine.   But the vaccination leaflets expressly state that only healthy and fit puppies be vaccinated!

So I went ahead with vaccination and said that we'd check again at next dose.    Two weeks later the vet (different vet)  could find no evidence of a murmur - and crucially, there was NO note made on the pup's file about any murmur!    Surely a heart murmur requiring a specialist visit should have been noted on file?

I seriously doubt there ever was a murmur in my pup.  At the time she was sniffing excitedly at the vet, the stethoscope, the table and anything else within reach.  She was also wagging her tail so hard that it was hitting both sides of her body.   Under those conditions I doubt the vet had any chance of hearing her heart properly.

Try not to panic, it may simply be due to an excited puppy, or a flow murmur which may dissappear by the next vet visit.  

In your position, I would want to get the pup checked out at my own vet surgery, or at least a second opinion.  Just to be on the safe side

I took some pups to the vet for their first vaccinations, vet found a very mild murmur in the one I was keeping. She said she felt sure it was one that would go. Two weeks later, same vet, second vaccination -no murmur! She really checked carefully as well, down to taking the pup inside an empty quiet room where she could hear really well.

Our breed has a puppy hand out sheet that all breeders are supposed to give out to puppy owners. (It is also reproduced on our breed council's website)

It states - "It should be stressed that minor "flow" murmurs are commonly found in young in young Boxer puppies, as in other breeds, but most disappear by about 16 weeks of age. Even if they persist there may be no cause for alarm if they are quiet. Such genuine "flow" murmurs" are not associated with heart disease in the adult".

"If a puppy "flow" murmur is loud and persists, the vet in charge may recommend that further advice be sought from a specialist cardiologist".

Thanks everyone. I have asked the owner what grade of murmur they are talking about. I spoke to a locum vet who firstly talked about the problem as very common. They are going to have an ultrasound tomorrow although my own vet said depending on the grade of murmur they would wait until the 2nd vaccination visit. The owner has asked me whether the insurance covers the cost of the ultrasound. I assume it probably does because when she left me I had no reason to think anything was wrong. So it is possible there is no need yet to go down the ultrasound route.
I read on the internet that 50% of Boxer puppies have this flow murmur at the early stage. ( mine isn't a Boxer by the way )
I have also spoken to a great friend who no longer breeds but has great experience and she also talks about this being relatively common and sorts itself out as time goes along.
I have of course said as a matter of course we will take the puppy back for a full refund. I would rather her see my own vet really, but the locum vet said she could understand that they had bought the puppy and seen their vet and are going with their advice. The new owner said they do not want to go down the returning route at the moment.

No but can still be applied to other breeds, I'd wait until after 16 weeks old if the murmur isn't a loud one.
I've known many people be frightened that there is a serious problem when they take puppy to vets for first
vaccination, and then when they return for the 2nd vaccination no murmur to be heard.

I am lucky as in our vet practise there is a vet that does specialise in cardiology.
So tend to book in with them for puppy inoculations and follow ups.

:)

Hope your puppy turns out to be fine and that the owners have been worried unnecessarily.

We had a similar thing happen with our last litter. I took all puppies for a check up with my vet 2 days prior to them leaving for their new homes. My vet is a specialist in cardiology and found no murmurs in any of the puppies. Two or three days after this particular puppy went to her new home the owner called me and said her vet had detected a grade 3 murmur and she should return the puppy to me. I of course said I would even collect her at my expense but was told that they wanted to keep her and her vet had advised a scan by their specialist the following week. When I told my vet he said he would be prepared to fund the puppy coming back to our practice and a re check as he was so convinced this puppy was clear. They had her scanned and no murmur was detected and they paid almost £200 for the privilege. I sometimes think vets do scaremonger and worry people to death and like the majority of the people who have commented, most murmurs in young puppies will have gone by the time they are 16 weeks. Try not to worry, because even with a low grade murmur most dogs can live very happy long lives as my first rescue girl did (grade 4).

My vet always checks my puppies before they go to their new homes and I also have the first injection done so hopefully, I would be aware of any problems before they leave us.

Both my dogs were diagnosed with heart murmurs several years ago - one was pts 2 months ago aged 16 and the other is healthy and strong aged 11.  So, I don't think it's too much to worry about.   Even my old mum was told twenty odd years ago that she had a murmur and she's now 94 !

I had been awaiting a call assuming the puppy had been at the vet to-day but received this email.

Diane hi, latest info for you; regardless we are keeping Tuppence, we decided not to subject her to the ultra sound as it would not effect our decision, we will have another ordinary stethoscope test in a fortnight, fingers crossed. She's getting used to being taken outside, despite the weather.
HerDNA shows traces of piranha.

Hopefully there will be better news at the next vaccination stage.

i had the same thing in my litter we just had, we had a pup with a very small hernia people that were intrested in him were told and they want me to take him to the vets because they had never had a pup with a hernia (neither had i actually) the vet told me he had a grade 5 murmur but i already had experiance of young flow murmurs, but of course this was noted on his records i told the family who were intrested in him explained my own experiance gave them loads of links to look at, but they decided they were not going to take him, he was 6 weeks old first time he went to the vet, 2 weeks later when he went for his 1st injection different vet explained what i had been told he had a good listen and said he could hear nothing at all and was surprised that previous vet had noted a grade 5, he said to me its should never of been noted as he was so young and the vet in question should of known this. The pup was sold to a great local family who i have known for a good few years i explained it all to them and pup was booked in for his 2nd with the two who were staying here for a couple of extra weeks so new owners came along and we saw the 2nd vet again, he pulled me aside and told me he had words with 1st vet and was told in future at such a young age to try not to grade the murmur just make owners aware of it and to recomend a follow up a couple of weeks later.

>HerDNA shows traces of piranha.

Piranha? I assume they're joking about her use of teeth! My Daisy was a Daligator ... :-D

Plenty of Maligators here. :) There are even t-shirts you can buy online saying Maligator.

Haha I often refer to my puppies as part piranha! Hopefully the next check in 2 weeks will show the murmur cleared up - do keep us posted! :-)

I remember being quite young and taking our puppy to the vets with my sister who had just learned to drive. I felt sick when the vet then told me my puppy had a heart murmur!! I worried sick for two weeks only to be told it was completely gone! I sometimes wonder why some vets don't have better people skills as, although they are treating animals, they are speaking to concerned owners and sometimes they forget that!

Obviously I am still hoping that the news will be good at the next vaccination stage. One of my dog grooming customers is a retired vet. I spoke to her the other day and found what she said very interesting. She said that she was trained not to be concerned about a murmur in a young puppy! It was far more common than I ever thought and that she thought vets to-day were being more cautious because of the blame game.
I just hope my puppy is one of the ones that develops and it disappears. I have had more news from them about what she is up to.
My retired vet did say that if you had a listless tired uninterested puppy then obviously that was a different ball game. She also pointed out that she would be very concerned about a pup having ultrasound because of insurance cover. She also said that she felt if they thought it was bad enough they should have advised them to return the puppy.
I'll update news as I receive it.

Had great news to-day as new owners of trhe bitch puppy took her back to the vet to-day to be checked over and all is fine. My OH is a bit annoyed with the vet for not giving her the time. I'm just glad she is OK. What a relief.
I gather that she is into everything, totally fearless just what the breed standard ordered.

Big relief and not altogether surprising! :)

That's excellent news and seems to be following the innocent puppy flow murmur route.
At least they had the patience not to rush off and to wait.

Hope that they (vets) have noted it on her notes that she now has no audible murmur detected.
Especially if they had noted the murmur on her notes before.

I'm sure a huge relief for you :)

Phew, that's good news. It's so annoying when the vets announce these murmurs without any hint about it probably being an innocent flow murmur. So glad she is ok now!

Am pleased but not surprised - don't know what it is with vets, I reckon they are brainwashed at uni - the may well have basic intelligence but there are a fast number who seem to have no common sense. Somehow they seem to be suffering from some sort of indoctrination that all dogs should be neutered and anyone who breeds or buys a pure breed puppy is a spawn of the devil intent on producing sick, deformed dogs that will finish up in rescue or PTS because of their gross ill health.

Really think it is time that vets worked to help the serious and caring breeder instead of trying to undermine them all the time, they can't all be bred like that so I can only assumed it is being force feed to them during their education.

Well said Nova :-)

Pleased for the puppy, but not really surprised :-)     As a caring breeder it must be a relief to know pup is ok and the owners are sensible

I suppose now I realise it is so common I'm surprised it has not come up before. Very relieved.

>Really think it is time that vets worked to help the serious and caring breeder instead of trying to undermine them all the time

I've got one of them :-)

I've got one of them :-)

But I think you would admit your vet is very much in the minority. :-(

Yes and that's why I'm keeping her :-)
Very expensive but worth it.

I've got a vet like that as well -two in the same practice in fact. Both very pro responsible breeders and exhibitors, very helpful, and I get 10 % discount on absolutely everything as well. Needless to say they have a fair few breeder clients including one extremely famous face from within the dog fancy -and that's certainly not me LOL. And I reckon that person must have a 12-15 mile journey to get there so clearly think it is worth it. In fact they also have a famous top breeder/exhibitor/judge client from the cat fancy as well, also travelling to get there.

I think those of us who breed and have found a vet who doesn't think we are the pits, and through their knowledge of our care and ethics are lucky that they see us in a different light. 

The problem is the vets of new puppy owners,,who I assume are so used to seeing the majority of badly bred pups that they are automatically assume the worst.

Sadly too true Barbara.