Hi,

I was just wondering if anyone has experience of this?

My bitch suffers from a pretty severe skin allergy after swimming (in any kind of water, all over country!), even walking through puddles or wading through mud set her off.  No regime of cleaning afterwards helps.  The water is definitely the culprit (or something in flowing, still, fresh or salt water), not anything we're washing her towels in or anything - all has been extensively excluded!

So today my vet suggested referring her to a dermatologist where they will identify the precise allergen and create a 'vaccine' which will allow her to build up a tolerance to it.  I know this is done in humans, and has been successful in some situations.  Does anyone have any experience of this in dogs?  I remember hearing some pessimistic figures from our old holistic vet.

It seems a bit drastic, but she's not really able to lead a normal life any more.  The allergy drives her to distraction, so she has to be kept on a lead 95% of the time because there is nowhere local where we can totally avoid the possibility of water (bearing in mind that even puddles set her off) and she is attracted to water and mud like a moth to a flame.  She absolutely loves to swim in the beck and play on the beach, I'm wondering if this might give her the chance of doing all these things again.  What do you all think?

Thanks,

Clare

Claire

Has she been tested for a grass allergy ?

Yes, it was negative to the broad kind that is tested for.  Of course it totally could be some kind of grass thing, but the allergy isn't seasonal.  They will have to be able to identify exactly what it is in order to make a vaccine.  So extensive allergy testing will follow if we go down that route. Whatever it is, it's clearly not something we can avoid (unless I only walk her on lead, avoid puddles, or buy some dog-wellies...), which is why I wondered if this may be a solution.

My oldie ended up being diagnosed with a grass allergy and dust mite.

I decided against the vaccine route because of the time it would take and also the lack of guarantee of it working.

I ended up using tea tree and aloe Vera to calm her skin which did help. The grass allergy was there all year as well and not just seasonal .

I use aloe vera, and while I think it helps a little, it's not enough.  When it really flares up, she can't even sleep :-(  Amber is 7, so still plenty of time ahead of her hopefully... and she is insured... so I'm just wondering if it's worth a punt when quite literally nothing else has worked.

Do you give her antihistamines as well ?

I would see what is definately causing the allergic reaction and the decide from there. It could also be food related as well.

It is 100% correlated with getting wet... I have sooooo extensively tested it, there's really no doubt.  I've tried keeping food completely constant (she is now raw fed, but was previously on a salmon and potato hypoallergenic dried food which contained no ingredients that were flagged in her allergy test), no treats or anything, but I can still guarantee that she will itch 24 hours after getting wet.  I have given piriton, but even the maximum dose made no difference (even when given for quite a long time).  I asked the vet if there were any others they would suggest, but they said severe skin allergies often don't respond to antihistamines at all. She has had steroids which do help, but the side effects were very distressing for her too (constant hunger, thirst, urination) so it isn't a long-term answer. I have tried every regime imaginable after she gets wet - different strategies for bathing, drying, etc, to no avail.   

We have to find out for sure what is causing the allergy, otherwise they can't develop a vaccine for her, so more in-depth allergy testing is definitely the next step.  So with a bit of luck, they will be able to pin point what it could be. It has to be something in the water though, I am completely certain about that, and my worry is that we can't avoid it like you can food allergies. 

poor Amber! does the itching continue even after she has been dried off?

The itching starts 12-18 hours after getting wet and continues for 5-7 days.  I dry her really thoroughly after cleaning her from a swim/paddle/puddle/mud-bath... and it's always the same :-(  I've tried not drying her to see if the towels/drying process was the problem, but it's not.  It's a real shame for her :-(

poor girl--that's not possible to live with. I take it you've tried a blaster/dryer to get the water off her quickly?

Yes I had the vaccine made for my very first dog, that will have been around 1982 or 1983. I have to say it did absolutely NO good whatsoever, but the vet I worked for then had it carried out for a LOT of canine patients with allergies, and it did seem to help some.

I've tried a hair dryer, yes.  She loves that, but it doesn't help.

does she have any visible skin irritation when she gets wet, like eczema? and does she scratch all over?

Thanks Goldmali.  I'm finding numbers of 55-80% success rate, I'm sorry it didn't work for you. Did it affect your dog in any way at all? Were there any side effects? At the moment, and since our insurance should pay, it seems a risk worth taking.  I just want to be absolutely sure that it can't make things worse!

It's only visibly irritated once she's scratched.  It only affects the areas where her fur is less dense and thus not waterproof (another reason that makes me pretty convinced it's the water).  So her legs and belly are the really bad areas.  She's having a flare up at the moment and her skin is very red and broken, it's becoming brownish which the vet says is a yeast infection, secondary to her having broken skin from itching.  Joy!

that's interesting...so could she actually have some kind of bacterial thing going on which is then activiate dcwhen she gets wet? I am sure your vet has done skin cultures--nothing?

No, no skin cultures.  I think that will come before immunotherapy, maybe it is some bacterial thingy. Who knows!  We're seeing 'The Skin Vet' who is a dermatologist that travels around to other practices to do clinics, so hopefully he'll be very good.  Immunotherapy was mentioned by my own vet today, so I just wanted to be as informed as I could be before seeing the specialist :-)

Yes, I'd recommend it without a moments hesitation.  That said, I understand it doesn't work for all dogs...

I have a dog who was diagnosed via a York Test with allergies when he was about a year old - mostly grasses but some tree pollens - and then a year or so later we had another more specific test just to see if it could pinpoint any different (non native species) - it didn't!  Luckily he isn't allergic to foods or dust mites per se BUT I've found that when he is in a raised allergic state that both of those things can exacerbate the problem. 

He has immuno-therapy injections (custom made to suit his needs) and it certainly makes a huge difference but I also have a care regime that helps to manage the situation.  The key changes I made are as follows:

Food & Supplements
I feed predominantly raw but I still feed the odd bowl of kibble.  I give Garlic & Fenugreek tablets daily throughout the year

Home
All the dog beds are now waterproof Tuffies, anything else definitely makes my allergy boy scratch.  He doesn't like the slippery surface much so I use a cotton fitted cover or a towel!  If he is in an itchy phase I vacuum more frequently, this certainly helps , and I generally wash their beds too as I suspect it's sometimes a build up of dog grot...(I use Surcare sensitive for this)

Daily
After every walk, I rinse him off with a weak solution of Hibiscrub, wipe his eyes, ear flaps and mouth first then wash legs and tummy.  I then give him a wipe with a damp sponge to remove any other irritants.  This is probably my number one coping strategy.  If itchy paws are an issue then don't forget to dry them thoroughly afterward.  They lick more when they are wet and then it becomes a habit that's hard to break

Also daily - 2 x 4mg Piriton up to 3 times per day as per vet instruction but I usually manage with less and none in the winter

When needed
Usually once every few days if we are in his allergy season - spray any red bits with Dermacton.  I use the spray or the cream depending where I need to apply it.  It's generally just his hind legs but sometimes his tummy.  This stops the itching getting worse and moisturises the skin so it doesn't get too dry and more itchy.  I did start by doing this twice per day but haven't really needed to continue using as often.  I usually have to clean one or the other ear each week as they do get waxy, then hot, then itchy and then sore!  If the ear flaps get itchy I use Aloe Vera on them.  I tend to use it direct from my plant (or you can buy 100% Aloe Vera gel at Holland & Barrett). 

Rarely
I use Fuciderm (steroid gel - vet prescription) to dab on any extra sore bits to prevent or sort out any secondary infection. 

If he ever gets too itchy I do something to take his mind off it (chew toy, play, wander outside etc).  In extreme cases I would pop his buster collar on for 15 minutes til the urge to scratch has worn off - although I can't remember the last time I ever had to do this as he usually stops when I ask him to.  He's 6 this year and has got quite used to being told not to scratch - poor chap!

He was insured but has now become far too expensive to continue.  His annual insurance premium had risen to nearly £1500.  If you are going to get the injections then do ask your vet to teach you how to do them.  Your dog will need a loading dose and require the injections every few days for the first few weeks.  As my boy was insured I blithely let the vet do all this for years before I realised just what impact it was having on my premiums.  We then had a situation where his expenses almost exactly matched the premium and then it became completely uneconomical.  I now pay into a separate account for him and do my own injections

Swimming is an issue for us too.  Water seems to be a very effective delivery system for irritants and I've had to stop him swimming in some sources due to repeat bouts of Pseudomonas.  Have you found that your girl is more itchy in different parts of the country?  We have, and where we live is a very real problem.  Contrastingly he positively thrives and improves enormously when swum in Dartmoor rivers...

Thanks - that's really helpful!  It's great that it's helped your dog so much.  I had already realised that I'll have to ask to inject myself (if we get that far), your insurance premiums sound scary!!

We have been managing this for a long time, and it's very similar to your situation - making her diet and environment as minimally allergenic as possible, her bouts are literally only ever isolated to when she's been swimming/paddling/mud-bathing.  Before it was a lot more random. 

One thing I haven't tried is Dermacton, I will invest in some of this after we've seen the specialist. 

The only thing that will distract Amber form itching is a chew, but her waistline won't allow for them too regularly!  A buster collar wouldn't really help, as it's mostly her back paws scratching her front legs/belly.   She will even slither all over the floor to try and scratch herself more effectively.  She will stop when asked though :-) 

I haven't found any water that doesn't affect her :-(  She is probably mildly less affected from swimming in reservoirs, whereas flowing rivers are maybe marginally worse - not sure that would stand up to scrutiny though.  Maybe we need a trip to Dartmoor!!

One thing you haven't mentioned, is whether having a bath starts it up?     How often do you bathe her - as in shampoo, conditioner etc. ?    Do you use any sprays? Anti-tangle, shine etc?

I have an allergy to wheat in shampoos (can't eat it either)  and well inderstand how itchy your poor girl gets.   However, I'm fine as long as the hair product doesn't contain wheat or wheatgerm oil ;-)

One thing that you might wish to investigate (if you haven't already) is Bob Grass cream and tonic.  I haven't used it, but a web search brings up many who are very enthusiastic about it.  It may relieve the itching, whilst you wait for the skin specialist'.

http://www.bobgrass.co.uk/product.html

Thanks Dill. Bathing doesn't cause it, nor does getting wet in the rain (so long as puddles haven't formed).

Now I am just rinsing her after she gets wet because actual shampoo was making no difference and I worry about over shampooing. If her skin was no problem I would never bath her at all - I don't bath my other labs. When I do use shampoo it's an oatmeal based shampoo. I don't use any other products at all - fortunately the Labrador coat doesn't require much :-)

>Now I am just rinsing her after she gets wet

Dilute Hibiscrub is a better option if she has broken skin or sore patches and it's surprisingly effective at removing dust and pollens.  I hose thoroughly first then finish with a bucket of dilute Hibiscrub.  You'll find the areas that are closer to the ground, or prone to splashes, and those that have less hair covering will show signs of irritation first so do take care to wash these thoroughly and change the water if your dog is very muddy.

I worried about over washing too which is why some type of cream to follow up can be helpful.  Dermacton is my gloop of choice - it's excellent for healing but also adds moisture lost with regular washing. (Bob Grass ointment is probably similar although I couldn't find the ingredients)

Have you tried camrosa? 

I would avoid hibiscrub as that can cause allergies itself.  Might be more tempted to use salt water - bit more natural disinfectant than just water

Have you considered that she may have a Malasezia overgrowth or allergy? It is a fungus that lives on all dogs but it can get out of control and cause tremendous itching . . . it would love the damp environment of having been in the water and dried off  . . . .? Also any water will strip the skin of a certain amaount of oils and if she is allergic or intolerant to this fungus : Malasezia ; then the skin has less protection also. Just a thought.  One of my dogs has a problem with Malasezia overgrowth ever since she was on a long period of antibiotics and she gets worse when the skin gets wet / damp.

Forgot to add that Malaseb shampooo kills off the Malasezia fungii :-)

Malaseb can be too strong for very sensitive skin (as my poor dog will tell you :-( ). He suffered very sore and itchy skin for a long time before Sebolytic was prescribed. It proves to be very soothing in cooler baths.

A few years back my GSD has sores all over her, after tests it appeared she was allergic to almost anything in life, even occasionally me. They did skin scrapes and created a vaccine from these and a local nurse ( neighbour) did the injections for me. Unfortunately they made no difference at all and she had a short life on permanent anti biotics. Very sad as she was a beautiful dog with a wonderful attitude to people, she didn't deserve this.

Hypocare is a great spray to help ease irritation and any infection, not going to cure her but might help you with managing the irritation.

Clare

Did you see a dermatologist - what did he/she say?  Did you have a blood test done?  As you know I have an allergic dog and I've been pondering your issues with water...

I had a very interesting discussion this weekend with one of our farmers :)

It was a total waste of time and (a lot) of money as he was unwilling to put an insurance claim in for it.

I told him everything, and how I had meticulously tested the water thing.  He said it was very unlikely and said, since I have 4 dogs, it's most likely a flea allergy!  I said I had seen no evidence of fleas, and he couldn't see any evidence of them on her.  But still, 'it's likely to be a flea allergy'.  He sent us away with an expensive systemic flea treatment for all dogs, which I felt unable to argue about (but I've not used) and some antibiotics. 

We are supposed to go back in a few weeks, and if she's all clear, he'll tell me to swim her and see what happens.  If she flares up from swimming, he said there is a simple answer - avoid water.  Bloody brilliant!

£250 well spent :-(  Not sure I will bother returning.

So poor Amber, still gets the water itches and will probably continue to do so :-( :-(

I'll come back to his advice in a bit (a bit odd to say the least). Has Amber had a York Test for allergies?  Your vet can do this and it really would be £250 (app) well spent

She has had an allergy test done (from a blood sample).  Not sure if it was a York test though.  I have the results and apart from dust mites and storage mites, there were just a handful of foods which have now been eliminated.  She was negative for the various pollens and grasses that were tested.

I don't think the assumption it is something to do with water is necessarily  a wrong one. I have a GR who loves to swim in anything and everything. I live very close to the beach and he swims every chance he gets and often he licks his feet excessively after swimming - he does swim a huge amount - if I walk along the beach for 3-4 miles he will literally swim all the way there and all the way back.

He also swims in rivers, ponds, streams etc whenever we come across one. Earlier this year I decided not to take him to the beach very often due to the excessive licking of his feet and have done more country walks instead as I thought it may well be the salt water that caused the itching. After one country walk, where he spent a lot of the time swimming along the river beside me as myself and the other dogs walked along the bank, he started to lick his feet again and scrape them backwards on the carpet. I did wonder if he had been stung by nettles but none of the other dogs had itchy feet and they spent the whole time in the fields whereas he swam most of the distance we covered. He was the only dog that went in the water so I do think there is a link between the water and the itching. I don't let him stay in the water for long now and have to put him back on his lead to keep him out of it once I think he has been in there for long enough. Reducing the amount of time he is allowed to swim for seems to have stopped the itching and currently he isn't able to have any walks at all whilst he recovers from an op - and he goes out in the garden on a lead so he can't get in the ponds - and the itching hasn't recurred. Maybe it is just a coincidence but I myself think there is a definite link between the itchy feet and the swimming.

Humans can suffer from something called aquagenic urticaria- though it is extremely rare. Exposure to water brings them out in itchy hives. I'm surprised your specialist was not a bit more thorough and wonder why he is so insistent it is fleas, what is his reasoning?

You feel strongly there is a link with water but say she is fine with a bath. I wonder therefore, if it is something that is diluted in the water outside? Have you kept a diary of events? That can be very useful in trying to detect a pattern.

Thanks, I did keep a meticulous diary of food, walks, weather, cleaning, etc which is why I am so confident this is water related.

I have to admit that it has been a very long time since Amber had a bath for no reason at all, recently it's only been for attempted damage limitation.  When she is itch free again, I will bathe her just for the sake of it and see what happens.

The reasoning behind the flea thing was simply that I have 4 dogs!  I did query him several times during our hour long consultation.  He said the severity of the skin reaction coupled with the fact that I have 4 dogs makes him think it is likely to be fleas.  I still don't get it...

Here's a thought....there's something called delayed cold urticaria that is triggered so many hours after exposure to cold water

http://allergies.about.com/od/urticariahives/a/coldurticaria.htm

This site is about humans, but cold urticaria has been observed in dogs too. I wonder if your dog has the delayed form- this might explain also why baths do not affect her, assuming the water is warm?

I guess the specialist is, quite rightly, looking for the simplest and most obvious explanation with four dogs = fleas, but you could mention this delayed cold water urticaria to him. I assume you have shown him your detailed diary etc..?

Thanks,  I'll have a proper look at that.... it sounds possible!

The specialist wasn't interested in my records because it was before he was involved.  I don't think we will be going back if he won't do an insurance claim.  He said that, if we did find it was caused by water, the solution would be to simply avoid water.  So I think I'll save my money!  It is just hard to exercise Amber off lead and avoid water, which is why I'd hoped we could do something about it :-(

I find it odd he was not interested in your meticulous records.

Well, my suggestion may be an utter blind alley, but at least you'd know.

If it is an unusual urticaria I do think you'd have to avoid water- the biochemistry of these chronic urticarias and associated angioedemas, is really complex and does, I think, involve major immune system dysfunction. It is little understood in humans let alone animals. From what you've said, I'd imagine the hives sets off scratching and then trauma to skin results in secondary infection which perpetuates the whole cycle.

If you felt brave you could try the ice cube test, as described in that link. Keeping her in a controlled environment for a day and ensuring she is rash clear to begin with. At least that might provide some evidence and you might then find a vet specialist who is interested in the condition, if she reacts to the ice cube.

Sorry if I've missed this but have you tried covering her vulnerable areas with a fleece, when you are out and it is cold?

I found it odd too!  I was very disappointed.

I think I will give the icecube test a go when she is clear (my partner isn't as tough as me when he walks her, so she has been paddling this week!)

I haven't tried covering her up - it is her underside and legs.  Hmmmmmm...

Thank you very much for your suggestions, at least you've given me things to think about and try.  It is quite disheartening when you have no hope!!

Sorry, I'm late.  But, my Lab boy is on Atopica, which I guess qualifies as immunotherapy.  Not sure if it's called the same thing in the U.K.  Modified generic cyclosporine (Neoral or Gengraf) is almost the same thing and was used by my Vet till Atopica came along.  You may have heard of cyclosporine in connection with human transplant operations.  My friend was on cyclo. when he had a kidney transplant, taken to reduce his immune system so his body would not reject the new kidney.

For my boy Atopica works wonders.  It is not without possible side effects but it is far less potentially damaging than steroids, which was what we used the first summer.  We have seasonal allergies, itch all summer, fine all winter, regardless of food.

Please search out Atopica to learn more.  I can't put everything about it here but if anyone has a question for me and Oban I'm happy to answer.  :)  Good luck.  It's painful to see your beloved dog in agony from itching.