In 17 years of showing I've never had this issue before so wondered if anyone could help me out. My youngest is about to have a biopsy on a small lump on his show side hock and will need to have a small amount of the coat around the lump clipped back (the lump is about 3/4'' x 1/4'') to see it clearly. My vet isn't overly worried about it but we have agreed that a biopsy is the best action. Anyway my question is should the results require no action is it acceptable to show a heavily coated breed with a shaved patch for a procedure,once any wound has healed obviously? They know I show my brood so never clip for bloods etc and will be sympathetic with the amount they clip. I suppose if the lump does require removal I will be asking the same question! Just thinking in advance about entries I've already made for June onwards. Obviously the health outcome is more important.

In theory it should make no difference at all and in my own breeds it would not but in some breeds it is all about the 'looks' and then it is possible that a judge (not a good judge) would find it difficult to ignore. It is not at all unusual to see a dog in the ring with a shaved patch so I would carry on and enjoy.

If the lump needs to be removed the area clipped may have to be a good deal larger than you would think, had a cyst removed on one of my dogs and the whole of that side of his body was clipped and the incision was surprisingly large but as the vet explained the amount you can see is only a tiny part of the 'lump' and the incision has to be large enough to make sure the whole of the lump (tumour) is removed - small pieces left behind is very undesirable. Now even in my own breed I would not have shown him as heavily clipped as he was until at least until there was a covering of coat but different breeds different attitudes.

I've shown my Cavaliers with little shaved patches on legs from injections etc and nobody's commented. I just have to try and remember to ask the vet to clip as little as possible or they do go mad!

Thanks,I will wait and see what happens then. Will definitely leave it until he has a little covering of stubble at the earliest-always assuming that it doesn't need to be all of the leg below the hock shaved as its nearly four years of coat growth so we could be out for a while! More worried about the results if I'm honest...

Why not show him the other way around, it is quite common practise in many breeds to show a dog best side to the judge, in my breed usually where the tip of the tail shows when curled, on others where the markings are more flattering.

I have certainly won with, in fact my first CC with a quite obvious shave mark on the front leg for GA when she had her Hip x-ray for scoring.

In the photos from the show it looks like she has a crimp in the leg bone.

About 13 years ago I showed a boy with a shaved patch on a front leg, I wouldn't do it again.

> About 13 years ago I showed a boy with a shaved patch on a front leg, I wouldn't do it again.

Why, those are about the most commonly seen due to getting dogs health tested.

I wonder why as well, would think there would be several at every show, it is not a problem unless it is very extensive and then the dog is likely to be carrying a wound as well.

The reason I wouldn't show a dog again with a shaved patch on his legs was the reaction of the Judge (an extremely well known all rounder), he didn't say anything but the looks said it all, this was a dog who did very well up until then and when the hair had grown back did very well again, but not that day!  It's just something that put me off, if I'm ever in that position again (hope not), I'd rather keep the dog at home until the hair had grown back. Each to their own.

Food for thought...well he is going under tomorrow so will see how it goes. I had always thought of turning him around (and would've in my gundog breed) but it is just not done in his breed that I've ever seen-even though he is actually more nicely/flatteringly marked on his non show side in my opinion. Thanks for your replies,will go back to worrying til the results are in now!!

The reason I wouldn't show a dog again with a shaved patch on his legs was the reaction of the Judge

But that is a problem the judge has not you or your dog - I am sure you do not withdraw a dog from the ring if it is not placed you probably think the judge is mistaken so why the reaction to the one time you showed a dog with a small shaved area and it was not placed?

As it turned out they did a very sympathetic shave and have left a nice fall of hair that should help disguise the shorter area,so hopefully should be out next month. Had to wait longer for results as one sample was a bit suspicious and needed further analysis, but just got the all clear-phew! If any judge has an issue with it then that's their choice.

Pleased your tests were clear and I would let the judges do as they wish, most will have brain engaged one hopes. A shaved patch has nothing to do with conformation, movement, health or breed type so to penalise for something so silly as a small area of shaved hair reflect on the good sense of the judge and not you or your dog.

Just to say, I had a CC withheld just recently, and the judge said it was mainly because the dog was moulting.

I assume you had a non moulting breed - I suppose if the judge had two dogs of equal merit in front of them it is reasonable to go with the one who looks the best but a small shaved area is easy to ignore, very different to a coated breed in their underwear.

Great news, and hopefully the judges won't be too fussy about a tiny patch!

I'm always amused when the judge comes around to look at the other side of my dogs because I often show the other way around.
What are they expecting to see...blue stipes?
What could be on the other side which would alter my placing?

LOL well perhaps you only brought half a dog or may be it has an extra ear you are trying to hide or even heaven forbid an extra mouth.

Some breeds markings can be better on one side than the other. :-)

Well yes, we show our breed with the best side tail wise to the judge but there is no need to look at the other side except as the dog moves or you do an examination after all if your breed was a solid on one side the judge would notice and would not need to make a special effort to see - however I see the point in looking when the spot patten, size or type is considered important but that would not apply to many breeds or coat colours.

>Some breeds markings can be better on one side than the other

Yes indeed... and why I do it...but would this be reason enough not to award?

> Just to say, I had a CC withheld just recently, and the judge said it was mainly because the dog was moulting.

I think that is quite reasonable if the dog has lost a lot of coat and the standard says it should have a long or thick coat. Although I am surprised you say the CC was withheld. couldn't it have been given to another dog?

I think that is quite reasonable if the dog has lost a lot of coat and the standard says it should have a long or thick coat. Although I am surprised you say the CC was withheld. couldn't it have been given to another dog?

He hadn't lost any coat at all, was simply moulting - but hadn't visibly lost coat yet as it was in the first few days of a moult. It was just loose hairs. And no, there were no others.

> He hadn't lost any coat at all, was simply moulting - but hadn't visibly lost coat yet as it was in the first few days of a moult.

That doesn't seem right. Nowhere in any of the standards does it say dogs shouldn't moult as far as I am aware. Correct me if I am wrong. Was that the only reason given or was there other things too? Could the moulting have been used as an excuse because the judge didn't think your dog was sufficiently good?

Just out of interest. If a judge does with hold a CC is there a process of appeal if you thing the decision is unfair or incorrect?

No appeal, if the judge thinks the dog is not championship quality or has health issues then they can withhold - but you are right not because a dog is moulting that would be ridiculous unless it was a non shedding breed.

Seems a stupid judge it would have been easier to only give a second place in the class and then they would not have had to get to the stage of withholding a CC if they did not like or thought the dogs was not of the required quality.

PS - interesting to see what is said in the critique - perhaps they will write the true reason for the withholding

And didn't he get a CC a few days after? Seems a daft reason to me!

> Could the moulting have been used as an excuse because the judge didn't think your dog was sufficiently good?

I know in my breed when the dog is moulting they can look a bit moth eaten and just not at their best, even before they actually lose much coat. The CC is for dogs of 'outstanding quality' and that should be across the board including coat quality. At the end of the day it's down to the judges opinion and just because there is only one dog present it shouldn't be an automatic ticket.

I do feel for you though as I've had a place withheld before, from a minor puppy, I wanted the ground to open up and swallow me!

So a dog isn't worthy of a champion title becuase it naturally moults - interesting!

And didn't he get a CC a few days after?

No -not been to any shows since. He did however get the DCC at Crufts! So can't be that bad LOL.
I have always said though, I support judges who withhold, as we don't want cheap Champions. We won't always agree with their reasons given, but I'd rather it was done than tickets handed out willy nilly.

I agree with you coats come and go, and unless there is insufficient coat to show that it is correct,  texture, double coat etc then it should not matter.

Is this maybe why some breeds are becomig so over presented if some judges make judgements based on such transient matters.

Yes when picking between two equally good dogs the one in it's underwear or tufting badly may go down a place, but moulting or even not so well groomed coat should not affect the judgement of a dogs quality.

I well remember our Jozi being very out of coat.  She has always been a bit full on and wilful to handle and benefited from time in the ring to settle, which with our small classes one rarely gets.

She was already a champion, and I decided to put her in Champion stakes, which was before our breed classes, but I took her in as I didn't expect main honours in breed. 

She was beaten, but I'd got the over excitement out of her, she then won Open bitch the Bitch CC and BOB.  I was quite loudly chanting, give it to the dog please give it to the dog.

So of course I was unable to represent the breed in the group.

I have always felt that stakes class wins should not count for being beaten, the winners after all are not eligible for the CC/group/BIS.

I really think if a dog is so out of coat that the judge can't tell if it has good breed type or that the coat is of correct type and texture they should withhold at class level - it is stupid to make the handler challenge for the CC if you have no intention of giving the dog consideration.

As this dog was only just starting to moult I think this particular judge was thinking of themselves and not the dog, they did not want this dog representing them in the group ring, can think of no other reason for this unaccountable behaviour.

I believe it was the only dog there, nothing to challenge.

I think this particular judge was thinking of themselves and not the dog, they did not want this dog representing them in the group ring, can think of no other reason for this unaccountable behaviour.

The BCC and the BOB went to the bitch (not mine but bred by me and owned by the co-owner of the dog, so same handler), and there was also an RBCC awarded so there was never any need to consider the dog in the group.

So far I've never seen judges that withhold actually write it up in their critiques, so we shall see. Last year at the same show DCC, RDCC and RBCC were all withheld (none mine I must add LOL), and they were never mentioned in the critiques. Not sure if there is any KC rule that says it should NOT be printed? In cats we always wait for the critique to be published to find out why an award was withheld. There have also in recent years been a few class placings withheld and again they have simply not been mentioned in the critiques.

There should be a critique for the class you won so it will be interesting to see what is said about your dog as winner of the class. Unless it lost its coat between the class and the challenge - which is the term used for the selection of the dogs to be awarded the CC - not meant to mean an actual challenge.

By the way Goldmali, did you get the RCC or just a flea in the ear?

Just the 1st in the class. Don't think an RCC can be awarded if the CC hasn't been, can it? At least the bitch CC was a Goldmali. :)

I don't blame the judge for withholding whether I agree with the reasons given or not, I still think they should do if they feel it is right, but what WAS annoying was the fact I was not able to be there myself, so sat in front of the computer all day waiting for results -as the dog is on 2 tickets. Results eventually came up on Fosse and it said he had been awarded it. It wasn't until a couple of hours later when I had informed the entire world there was a new Champion that I found out that wasn't the case. Ooops.

I think the judge has every right to withhold if the exhibit in their opinion lacks merit or is unhealthy but I don't think the fact that it is starting a moult should be a reason. And if the dog was not liked why was it awarded a 1st - unless a dog becomes lame or takes a bite at someone or something I don't see how it can change from the class to the challenge. I am assuming it was given a 1st in Open and then the CC was withheld because it was just starting to throw its coat - unbelievable particularly as you say the BOB could have been given to another animal as your dog was not the only breed entry. Lucky for the judge they found something they liked in the opposite sex. And yes you are right the reserve can't be given if the CC is withheld.

> So far I've never seen judges that withhold actually write it up in their critiques,

I do think that is out of order. If the judge thinks your dog is not worthy of a top award they should at least explain why.

> Last year at the same show DCC, RDCC and RBCC were all withheld.

Same judge? I am guessing you won't be going to that show next year.

In this case the judge will/should write a critique on the 1st place and should then say what they did not like about the exhibit - take some nerve to complain that it was moulting !!