What sort of fee would you expect to pay for an unproven stud dog?  He is fully health screened etc and just waiting for his first lady friend...

I wouldn't, you are doing the stud dog owner a favor by letting them try their boy on your bitch.  Maybe once a litter is on the ground then pay a stud fee, but I wouldn't pay one before and wouldn't expect payment if my boy was used for the first time either.

A token fee for 'time and trouble' (say £50) on the day of mating, with the balance of a less-than-average (as nobody knows the quality he will sire) of about £200 or £300 either on confirmation of pregnancy or when the litter is born.

I'd expect the normal fee but only once pups were born.

I was told that payment would be expected one litter is on the ground, he would then be proven to sire a litter, quality can never be guaranteed!

I would expect to pay the normal stud fee - but not until either pregnancy was confirmed or the litter was born. Having said that, I never take a stud fee until then anyway - neither have I had to pay one until then :)

with the balance of a less-than-average (as nobody knows the quality he will sire)

That's always unknown because at no stage will anyone know how well his genes will tie up with the bitch's until the pups grow.  Even a repeat mating doesn't produce the same quality.

I'd also expect the stud dog owner to willing put the time in if they want to have their dog proven (it's a brave breeder who takes the plunge and risks a precious season of a quality bitch on an unproven dog) and so I'd expect to pay the going rate stud fee once the pups are born. :)

(as nobody knows the quality he will sire)

That sounds like the old excuse of if anything goes wrong, it is ALWAYS the fault of the stud dog and never the bitch. :)

I have twice used unproven dogs. For one, I was asked a stud fee once the pups were a fortnight old. For the other I was asked full fee at time of mating as the owner knew he was fertile -he'd mismated one of her bitches (different breed) that I believe was then spayed whilst pregnant so pregnancy was confirmed.

I wont charge anything until pregnancy confirmed, maybe even pups born, but then its full amount. Stud fee is already low enough...£250...not dropping it any lower. After that its payment up front.

In my breed you would pay the usual fee, but not until pups are on the ground, but that is what mostly happens with any stud fee in our breed, it has become the norm to wait until there are pups before accepting the fee.

We are a numerically small breed and basically all know each other and work together.

Even the most successful show dogs or producers don't get used a lot, sometimes not at all if there are no suitable bitches for them.  Stud fees tend to be the same regardless of the dog, the price of a puppy..

> I was asked full fee at time of mating as the owner knew he was fertile -he'd mismated one of her bitches

then he wasn't unproven. Maybe not the ideal way to prove a dog, but proven none the less.

I've got a young dog and using him on one of my own bitches to avoid such a dilemma ;-)

What happens with an unproven dog if the bitch is of a breed known for producing 8 or more, only produces one pup at his first mating? This could create a bit of a dilemma if you don't pay the stud fee until the pups are on the ground as the bitch owner may cite that it wasn't the bitches fault and refuses to pay the full fee?

Not something that has happened to me, experienced stud dog, first time bitch, 8 pups but just pondering.

Numbers are genrally considered to be down to the bitch, and timing.

then he wasn't unproven. Maybe not the ideal way to prove a dog, but proven none the less.

But to ME, he was unproven. There were no pups, and no way to prove there ever had been any sired by this dog, so as far as I was concerned, I was using an unproven dog. I can understand why the owner wanted the full stud fee and of course I paid it as this was the dog I really wanted to use and had been recommended by my mentor -and in the bargain a total stranger (the stud dog owner) became one of my best friends ever, so it was well worth it. :)

when I used a little used dog I had the bitch scanned and as there seemed a good number of pups I paid for the mating then - owner didn't want to accept money until outcome was known.. this was a dog who had sired a litter, but was still inexperienced...

> the bitch owner may cite that it wasn't the bitches fault and refuses to pay the full fee?
>

As I understand it, the number of pups is down to the bitch, and not the dog.   Most bitches absorb some of a litter, and how many cannot be down to the sire.

I would be happy to pay a handling fee on the day, after all as long as the dog performs his task satisfactoraly then he has done his job. The remainder of the fee is then decided once you know pups are expected. I paid a handling fee of 200 euro on the day I used the dog and then the remainder (10% of the total litter value...including the value of pups kept) was payable at 8 weeks. To me this is a great idea. The handler gets recompence for his time on the day and the 10% is then acceptable whatever amount of pups are born and survive. One pup 10% of value - 15 pups then again 10% of value. I do not see it as doing the dogs owner a favour to use an unproved dog, after all every time you mate a maiden bitch  you take a risk ! One would assume you are using the dog for his looks/temp/bloodlines/ etc... the fact that there are no pups on the ground as yet should not make him less valuble. If anyone feels it is worth using the unproved dog then I assume his qualities have beed assesed first. If a bitch owner is worried about missing a season then maybe ask if a sperm test could be done or use a different dog.
Aileen

I think the way of charging above is a great idea.
It is not up to the dog how many puppies are born but above makes it very fair way of charging IMO. Big litter there is a chance of little extra being left after the litter, small litter means the breeder is likely not to break even...especially when costly c sections etc are more likely with just few pups...

I would not expect to pay less for an unproven dog, if i really needed to know if he is capable of producing e.g sperm is ok i would ask for a spermtest and pay for it myself if owner would not want the cost (most i know would be happy to check for their own peace of mind as well as mine).
But i would also not use a dog where i would need to pay stud fee regardless of the outcome... i simply can not afford to fork out +£1000 for the fun of mating my bitch and just lose the money if she did not take...
handling fee yes, but full stud fee even with free return, no...
i would select a different male but luckily in my breed there are very very few people who do ask for full fee before pups are on the ground...

> i would also not use a dog where i would need to pay stud fee regardless of the outcome... i simply can not afford to fork out +£1000 for the fun of mating my bitch and just lose the money if she did not take...
> handling fee yes, but full stud fee even with free return, no...
>

As a breeder in a breed where the stud fee is the cost of a puppy I totally agree.  I can see in breeds where the fee is low of expecting a fee for the stud dog and owners trouble, but otehrwise it's for a litter.

It is of course entirely up to stud dog and owner of the bitch to agree acceptable terms.

Have often contributed to discussions about stud fees on this forum. I have consistently argued that the demands of stud dog owners for enormous sums of money, in cash , upfront at the time of mating ,is entirely unreasonable. The fairest method in my opinion, is to charge a handling fee ( if a tie is achieved) and a sum per puppy once the puppies are' on the ground' ( and viable ). I have frequently been told that I am being unreasonable. The fee is payable for 'services of the dog and represents the costs involved in keeping a stud dog' and not the result of the mating. Well, that's all b.....ks as far as I'm concerned . £800+n is an absurd sum of money by any standards for a bonk ( whatever the species) and those who demand it upfront are greedy, self serving and probably need to get a grip on the real world and by that I mean looking further than their own bank accounts and what the boy has won in the ring. Too many litters by popular studs. Too much greed.

but this isn't the case for all....

I have a medium herding breed where the stud fee is £250 and a large herding breed where it's around £400....

my medium boy probably cost (excluding on going costs like food etc) in excess of £4k and I've had one stud fee so far so don't see myself as greedy, self serving or out of touch with reality.... my large boy has probably cost getting on for £3k and I've used him on my own bitch...

I may have a repeat mating for the medium dog and hoping for a few for the large dog eventually... but have turned down a lot for the medium boy so far (large dog is only just 'available') so don't see that I'm greedy... ;-)

I've paid the £250 a few times - first litter bitch had 2 pups, one born by c-section, second litter had 2 pups by c-section but lost one... bitch then spayed.... one of pups had an issue with her eyes so all in all it cost me a fortune!

another bitch was more fortunate - 6 live pups which was fantastic.  She's just had the one litter and that's going to be it.

I was 'happy' to pay for the smaller (expensive) litters and didn't offer more money for the larger litter - hope that doesn't make me out of touch... ;-)

I was happy to pay up front £200 [ since seen prices from £175 for unproven up to £500 for top champ]as being new to breeding I was so pleased that well known breeders were letting me use their dogs who were doing well in the ring, the litters were 3/4 so not lots of pups, only sold the 4 as pets, they were all males and no one was looking for a nice male to add to their breeding programme at the time, they were the only ones I got money for but certainly didn't cover my outgoings.

Stud fees for medium herding breeds have remained very low relative to the price of the puppies, the exception to this being in the show lines where the price of a puppy and more is becoming common. In certain gundog breeds the fee is normally in excess of £850 . Furthermore, the excessive use of popular sires  -popular  only because of success in show ring has seen some stud dog owners making thousands of pounds of undeclared cash earnings with little consideration of the impact this has on the breed. Sorry Penny, I most certainly would not have considered you as greedy etc !

The stud fee in my breed is £800 -£900. I believew there are one or two of the top breeders who charge more. In the litter I have just had, I knew this was the last litter due to age and the first breeder I approached who I know very well ( and indeed she had a pup from me years ago ) I explained that a free mating next time was no good to me - would not budge on payment up front / free mating next time so I declined. Her dog is a a Champion sire.
So I moved on to someone who I used a dog last litter ( also a Champion sire ). MAte Select showed a better ratio as well. I knew they were reasonable people. Explained as above and they again said no puppies no fee and fee to be paid when the pups were a couple of weeks old. We had 8, lost 2. So in effect, one puppy paid the price of the stud fee.
I have never owned a stud dog but hope if I did I would take the approach of  the latter breeder for someone that I knew. I can understand a different approach if you don't know them from Adam as you may never see them again.

just to say that for my medium herding breed £250 is the 'standard' sum for show champion or good agility dog.... I can only agree that some people's attitude to both cash and the number of times their dogs are used is horrendous :-(

Stud fees in my breed in the UK are easily the price of a pup running at around £1000/£1500. I have heard of many instances when it is taken up front and if no pups then no refund but a free return. One lady I know had a mating, no pups, bitch had to be speyed and still the stud owner did not refund anything but said she could use "one of his dogs" at any time in the future ! That is money grabbing at it's worst !
Personaly I would not use these dogs. They maybe what I want but they are not the only dogs and I am happy to travel to find a stud owner I feel has morals like my own. The handling fee and % of litter price is in my opinion the only fair way to go.
Aileen

(10% of the total litter value...including the value of pups kept)

That would work out expensive in my breed, as so many of us end up keeping several (no choice), or give them away for free to people we know. In my last litter of 9 I got paid for 3, and I know somebody who had 8 and also just got paid for 3. In fact I don't know anyone who does not have to give any away for free and/or have to keep 2 or 3.

> they were the only ones I got money for but certainly didn't cover my outgoings.

Same in my breed.  I think the most I have paid is £250 for a well known show dog (paid at time of first mating, had 2 matings, and free return if not pregnant.)

This is a breed that averages 1-3 pups.  I've had a C-section out of hours costing £1,086 and she was carrying one pup.  However, it is a breed that you can keep the whole litter for yourself!

I once had a visiting bitch for my boy and I charged £200 for 3 covers.  The owner was beside herself when her bitch had one dead puppy.  Knowing how it feels I couldn't do anything but offer her a free return, even though my boy had done his job.  I felt so sorry for her.

JeanSW I would have done the same, having had a stillborn litter in 2011 I know how devastating it is to have no live pups, on that occasion I had used one of my own lads so no stud fee paid.

Not all stud owners would do the same though.

I see your point Goldmali. But in reality that is not the stud dog owners fault. I do realize not all breeds are as easy to home as others and it can be a problem having to keep pups on even if you do not want so many. As the bitches owner it is my choice to mate her and in the whole my job the find suitable homes. If I sold a whole litter for £10 per pup the 10% would still hold true. However if you could only find homes for 3 out of 7 pups and had to keep the rest it could be costly. Do you not think that is a risk we take anyway ? If the stud fee for your breed is £500 and the sale price of a pup £500 and you have 5 pups by C-sect in the early hours of Bank Holiday Monday costing £1000. Then you raise the pups well cost for food aprox £300 (conservative) and you keep a pup for yourself £500 Thats a total cost to breeder of £2300 in real terms Value of litter in real money = 4 sold pups @ £500 = £2000 so a loss before you even think of registrations etc..
Owners of bitches need to take onboard the fact that it is not always easy to recoup your costs. The stud dog ownner is not making the desission to have a litter but is providing you with a service at a cost. After all it is not possible without him !! Maybe in your breed it is not a suitable way of charging but it would work very well with many breeds.
Aileen

Stud fees vary from £150 from jo blogs down the road to an average of £1000 and the top dogs in Europe being around EUR2000 so about £1800ish. I think the £1000 is a fair price if the dog has done well in the ring or field and carries relevant breed health test Certs. By the time you have tested for hips, elbows, eyes, heart, temperament etc and campaigned to field or show champion the owner has spent a considerable sum and so why I feel for certain dogs £1000 is fine. If jo blogs asked that and hadn't done any tests that is unreasonable and greedy.

I have used a champion Pomeranian for only £250!

In my breed top dog or unproven all the same, price of a puppy. 

What a dog has done is really not that relevant, other than as a measure of his quality, as there is no way fo knowing is he will pass these qualities on to a given bitch.

The top dog may not be the best mate for that bitch, though this is somewhat different if the conformation is not a huge factor, but some form of working ability is the main selection criteria.

My boy was used for the first time recently--he is fully health tested and although I've been asked for him a few times I've always refused because I wanted to see him doing well in the ring first. He's now 3 and reaching his best. He was used on a bitch who has already produced 2 litters. I charged £475 (puppies go for £800+), with £100 of that paid as a handling fee, two matings (I took him on a 300 mile round trip to her the second time) plus a free return if no pregnancy resulted this time. She has just been confirmed in whelp and the balance was paid at that point.

What a dog has done is really not that relevant, other than as a measure of his quality, as there is no way fo knowing is he will pass these qualities on to a given bitch.


You also need to look at the dogs pedigree to make sure they are compatible. A really good dog can throw not very good pups depending on  it's ancestry

I have groomed a youngster from a really good show winning dog and the youngster was definitely pet quality only.

You can't make a silk purse out of a Sows ear, both dog and bitch influence the quality of puppies, and of course faults common to both or in their ancestry may come through rather than their good points.