My 2 dogs are the same breed, both male. The older one, L, is just 7 and neutered, the younger one, C, is coming up to 1 and entire.

L has always had a bit of a problem with resource guarding, but it's a very specific kind of situation that causes his aggressive behaviour: basically, when he thinks another dog has got or is going to get food that it doesn't 'deserve'. I realise that's anthropomorphism of the worst kind, so maybe some examples would be better! First of all, situations that DON'T provoke him: if you make him and another dog work for treats, say each one's name and then reward - even if the other dog is quite close then that's OK. Likewise, the scenario that was the topic of my other post ('How to have peace during (human) mealtimes') is sorted now, as L has come to trust that C won't get anything that he (L) won't get.

Change the situation even slightly, however, and L may well react. This was demonstrated only too well a couple of days ago - we were having lunch in the garden and the plates of food were on a lower table than indoors. L obviously thought at one point that C was heading towards a plate with the intention of taking something and he flew at him. Now I have to admit that I don't have much experience of aggression in dogs and L absolutely terrifies me at these times. There's no growl or any other warning - he just launches himself at C in what I can only describe as a mad, snarling fury. It seems to last forever and I always think he must be going to kill C, but actually there's never been any blood. And in fact he usually stops after just a few seconds - maybe 10 at most. I don't know whether it's C squealing and screaming or us yelling at him that seems to bring L back to his senses. Then he's immediately very subdued. What I usually do at that point is put a slip lead on him and take him for 'time out' in a room that has a baby gate.

We did have a session with a behaviourist before getting C, but she didn't think there was much we could do as this behaviour of L's was so unpredictable. (Also, to be fair, there were other more important things that we wanted advice on at the time.) We can, and do, avoid situations which we know L will probably find difficult - such as being in a pub or someone else's house with other dogs when there's food around. I've also had some success with using a clicker to distract L and reward him for coming to me when in a 'risky' situation, but that's not always possible. The 'rages' happen probably once a month on average.

I'd really appreciate any thoughts on this. Also, it's occurred to me recently that I need to maybe rethink the effect on C too. He absolutely adores L, and seems to want to be with him straight away after a 'rage'- but my inclination is to separate them and remove L. But perhaps C thinks he needs to re-establish their relationship by being extra submissive or 'making up' in some other way? It breaks my heart to see him upset - he's such a sweetheart! 

Val  

Val,

What do you know about L's upbringing- was he in a large litter and were the pups all fed together from one bowl? Have you spoken to the breeder about these food issues- has it occurred in any of the breeder's other dogs? Pups that have had to really compete for food with each other or that perhaps have not had enough to eat can develop food issues.

Has L ever been iffy around food with humans or is it just with C? Has L been given a recent vet check- I'm thinking thyroid.

Is it absolutely only food that L exhibits aggression or are there other situations? My concern would be that C is still young and will defer to L but as he matures he might decide he has had enough and then you could end up with a fight.

I'd be thinking about getting the behaviourist back in but perhaps someone more experienced. From the little you have said these outbursts are not unpredictable at all, you have already outlined circumstances in which they will and will not occur. But first I'd be checking out thyroid and have a good think as to whether L can be irritable in other circumstances- even if not to the same degree. Really, it needs a thorough history- did the last behaviourist do this with you?

The last thought is that C's hormonal status might be provoking L- especially in high arousal/status situations like access to food. C is still very young and L might feel compelled to keep reminding C that he is the senior dog with some OTT displays of his might. What age was L castrated at?

All of this is conjecture and I'm throwing out ideas- please do not take these observations as definites. If the situation does not calm down soon I'd definitely be seeking advice. It might simply be a rank thing or something more complex- the dogs need to be seen in situ to really know.

It's all very simple really, L is top dog at 7 years and the higher ranking male gets first food choice he is just making sure that his younger counterpart knows this, in the way that dogs communicate, there is no blood it is just noise and teeth showing.

Most domestic dogs do not show food aggression or take things to this extreme, unfortunately your boy here has developed this habit and at 7 years it is going to be extremely hard to undo, the behaviour needed tackling years ago.........

I would personally stop any food rewards at all, why do you still use food rewards on dogs this age? Food rewards are a training tool in teaching new commands, (or whilst working with a dog) once a dog understands a command you really do not need food rewards for daily home life, you use praise only, a good boy, a hug and a high pitched voice, food rewards need to go all together. This may well start to help with his obsession to get the food first.

The best and safest solution is to just never allow him around where there is human eating, if you can't deter a behaviour then you just stop it from happening, why take chances? Keep him and your other dog so as not to cause jealousy behind a dog gate or in another room when food is about, why put him in places to cause a trigger? Far simpler and easier to do and tbh if I had a food reactive dog I would not be taking him to social places like pubs where he may become a nuisance, you know he has this problem so deter any chances of it rearing its ugly head.

Maybe in time if he is kept away from triggers and not expecting food rewards at all he will lose interest altogether?

If he is fine at meal times with your other dog that is good, but if trouble starts even if you give him his bowl first then you will have to feed them in separate rooms too.

As far as your 7 year old is concerned he is teaching your younger dog manners, not a bad thing, but alas not something he needs to do, just avoid putting him in this position at all. :-)

Think this may be a problem with one of the dogs being castrated, the intact one will not give respect to age unless it thinks the older dog has breeding rights and IMO it is natural for dogs to sort out the breeding rights once they are all adult. In this case the fact that to the younger dog, the elder is not a male will confuse the issue.

Jackie/Carrington

Yes, I think it probably is a top dog/hormonally driven issue but just erring on the side of caution, I'm a little concerned that if it isn't that the behaviour starts to generalise.

If a behaviourist has already been in and said that the behaviour is too unpredictable for intervention that strikes me as a little odd.  One would think that this person would have identified and explained the behaviour as status driven, if that is the case, and come up with some ideas on a way forward.

> was he in a large litter and were the pups all fed together from one bowl? Have you spoken to the breeder about these food issues- has it occurred in any of the breeder's other dogs? Pups that have had to really compete for food with each other or that perhaps have not had enough to eat can develop food issues.
>
>

I have always fed my pups from one or two large dishes, but main point being they always had more food than they would eat, so some was always left for Mum to clear up, even after the slower or less pushy pups had their fill.

I do feel that things could actually work the other way, by learning that they won't be hungry even if they share may make them less inclined to guard.

I have never had any serious food guarders, though have had some that are more food than others.  Some time in puppy hood have had some try to pinch from others and growl over it, trying to get them to leave it (pushing puppy license). 

I have made it quite clear that bullying others for food is not allowed, stern voice, ah ah, call to me and treat after completing a command like sit/stand etc.  Avoid making a big deal (was going to say meal of it, duh).

This sounds like a simple (albeit severe) form of resource guarding.  My collie used to do a watered down version of it towards my other dogs.  He doesn't want other dogs to get food, he's worried about "losing" it (and yes, that can extend to food he hasn't even got yet), so he guards it.

In particular situations such as training with treats, he has stopped because - as you've said - he has learned that the other dog isn't going to get his food, so he no longer needs to guard.  That's the essence of the problem - that need to protect what might get stolen.

So, two things.  The first is management - you know he will react differently if the situation is altered, so don't let him get himself into a position where it might happen.  He won't do it deliberately - many dog will put themselves in situations they think are ok only to then realise they can't cope, but they are in too deep already so they panic (in this case, attack the other dog).  So, it's up to us.  If you know that food is going to be close to him, if you know he is likely to guard it, then remove him from the equation altogether - don't give him the chance to practice the guarding behaviour (because like any "skill", the more he gets to practice it, the better he will get at it).

The second thing is your response.  First and foremost, learn the subtleties of body language.  There are always signals that come before he lashes out - this is typically things like little sideways glances at the other dog, licking lips, going still/stiff, moving slowly if in motion.  Going still/stiff with a sideways glance and tight lips is typical in this particular situation.  These signals can be very quick but if you can spot them, you can intervene: move him away in a calm, quiet manner, so he's out of the guarding range, so to speak (i.e. far enough away that he's not bothered - may mean shutting him away).  Do this every time he starts, before he gets physical, so he learns that he won't get any access to the food at all.  But this MUST be done calmly.  If you get angry, all you will do is add an extra layer of stress on top - so he'll have the stress of "needing" to protect his resource, and the stress of the threat of punishment (be it verbal or whatever).  That will put him on edge right from the get-go and make him more likely to react.

It's also important that the other dog responds correctly too - if he grumbles then the other dog should move away, and a lot of dogs need help with this part - a lot will just stand there hoping that staying still will diffuse the pending aggression, or they'll ignore it totally.

This is workable - Phoebe used to fly at my others if I had food nearby but by removing her, and making sure the others listened to her, she has calmed down considerably.  That's after 4 years of living alone and unsocialised with dogs, and 3 months with a very guardy, grumpy cocker (so not a good role model for a sponge of a collie!).

It's worth (if you haven't already) training a really solid 'leave' - train it right and he'll know that he's not going to get access to the food once the cue has been given, which should help calm him down.  Giving him something else to do can help too - so if you're going to have a meal, give both dogs a kong or chew to keep them entertained while you eat.

> why do you still use food rewards on dogs this age?

Old dogs can still be trained to do new things, the OP could be doing this :-)  I still train my guys to do tricks well into old age so treats are often present.  Tia was learning targeting at 13!

Val,

I have just reread your post and noticed that you say you had a behaviourist in before C arrived, so presumably L's issues were occurring before the other dog was even a factor? If so how..with food or other things and who/what was on the receiving end? Can you say more about what the behaviourist's view of L's reactions as too unpredictable?

Wow, thanks very much for the replies so far - I really appreciate people taking the time to help.

OK, a bit of history. L was in a litter of 4, 3 boys 1 girl. The breeder fed them from a single bowl, but I don't know of any of the other pups having food issues. I'm not in contact with the breeder any more (her doing, not mine). She did use CM-type training methods and I was quite shocked at how she treated L when we went to visit once.

I should have made it clearer that this guarding thing has been an issue for L for most of his life. He's always been highly-strung and quite anxious too. There was one occasion when he bit my arm - not hard, just tiny puncture marks - because he thought I was going to take away his chew. He was 9-ish months old and it was around the time of the incident at the breeder's, above. We've worked hard at addressing the resource-guarding and have never had any problem with it involving humans again.

Before C we had a Samoyed bitch, T, 6 years older than L. No issues between them at all until T was about 13, when L did fly at her on a few occasions for the same thing: she was close to, or heading towards, food which L thought she shouldn't have. There was also a time when we had a friend visiting with a baby, and L took it upon himself to guard the baby from T.

Which reminds me that it often used to be ME that L thought he needed to guard. Again, we've worked hard at this and I now feel a lot more confident in managing it. And we do avoid the riskiest situations altogether (indoors + me + food + other dogs), as Nikita I think suggested.

So . . . we decided to get another dog after T died, wanted a bitch and had L neutered to avoid the hassle of having to separate them when the bitch was in season. Also I was kind of hoping that castration might just take the edge off L's 'neuroticism' and make him a bit more chilled - but it hasn't. In the event there wasn't a girl for us in the litter so we had a boy instead. The dam of the litter is L's sister. That's when we had the session with the behaviourist, to draw up a plan for introducing C to the household and managing the relationship between them in a way which would cause the least upset to L. We're very pleased how that's worked out. L took precisely SIX months to decide that C was OK, but now they get on really well and have great fun together.

Of course I can't predict the future but I would be very, very surprised if C was to challenge L. He has been a remarkably calm and gentle puppy, and shows no signs of changing in that respect. He adores L - follows him everywhere he goes - and their play-fights are very balanced. L has become more tolerant of C the older he gets, which isn't what I was expecting!

So back to the 'rages'. I think maybe 'unpredictable' wasn't quite the right word. Yes there are situations that we know are risky, and which we can avoid completely. Other times I can 'read' L's body language and take action (that's when I move away from the source of the problem, show L the clicker and he comes to me and settles). But we're left with the times - like I said, maybe once a month - when he flies off the handle quite out of the blue. It happens so quickly that we're probably not even looking at him, and it's only afterwards that we can work out (usually, but not always) what happened and why.

I'm sure there are questions I haven't answered, but I'll come back to them later if need be.

Val       

My methods may well be out of date but I would feed both dogs by introducing a small amount at a time to their bowls, eldest first, and stand between them with the bowl holding the rest of their dinner in your arms, when they have both finished the first amount tell them to sit and add another amount to the bowl, again eldest first. Would split the food into 3 or 4 amounts and give by hand into the bowl - if there is any danger of your getting bitten then wear a thick glove.

That aside I think the unpredictable behaviour may need the help of a vet, perhaps there is a medication that may help or there may be something that is triggering the behaviour - it may even be worth trying male replacement hormone to help give him more confidence but it may have the opposite effect and make him even more aggressive. Expect others have said never respond to bad behaviour except to remove the offending dog or yourselves and the well behaved dog from the room always praise or treat good behaviour but do so in a calm manner, no excitement in the voice.

I would personally stop any food rewards at all, why do you still use food rewards on dogs this age? Food rewards are a training tool in teaching new commands, (or whilst working with a dog) once a dog understands a command you really do not need food rewards for daily home life, you use praise only, a good boy, a hug and a high pitched voice, food rewards need to go all together.

I totally disagree with this! It's like saying only newly employed people will get paid, then they should do whatever boring job they have just because they may be told they're good. Might work if they REALLY love what they do but that is far from always the case. There's nothing wrong in using food rewards for life and it makes for happy dogs that will stay keen. And I certainly take great pleasure in watching my 13 year old sit down and stare at the treat cupboard once I have clipped her claws, for instance! :)

My lurcher doesn't really like being touched other than having the base of his tail rubbed on occasion. He lets me pet him but I can tell hes tolerating it usually rather than enjoying and its not something he finds rewarding at all, he would probably start refusing to do things for me if I praised and petted him afterwards.
My first dog adored praise though and would do anything for a well done, I had a shock with the lurcher :)

There's nothing wrong in using food rewards for life and it makes for happy dogs that will stay keen. And I certainly take great pleasure in watching my 13 year old sit down and stare at the treat cupboard once I have clipped her claws, for instance!

We'll have to stay on complete polar opposites on this. :-) You see to me that feels sad, I'm probably one of the only people on the board who would feel sad at that, but I do....... that a dog expects a food treat for having her claws done and will look at the cupboard for one, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it, if it makes you all happy, but I guess we have different ideas. I get the same satisfaction from a dog via praise alone whether it be from touch or voice.

Ruling out dogs competing and training for competitions of all kinds, training classes and using them as a tool for dogs who are nervous or extremely stubborn, rescues, re-homes, also including puppies and some adolescents if at the 'naughty' stage, I really do not get the continued use or need, praise alone, whether through touch or voice has worked for decades and most dogs lap it up they thrive on it.

Gosh, even with new pups I start whistle training immediately, a whistle recall = a treat, but after a week I will whistle, pup will come, and instead of a treat he/she will get a tummy rub, tickle behind the ears, happy voice and no more food treats, I wean them that quick from each command, they still recall for the praise alone........ they don't need the food anymore.

I don't enjoy seeing dogs looking at humans as walking gum-ball machines, 

One fore-instance,  visiting a friend of a friends home, her dog pounded on me as I came in, now this dog is 4 years old she's had him from puppyhood. I put my handbag down he was straight in it, looking for a treat, I sit down he is on my lap sniffing my pockets for a treat, on finding I had none he was gone..... no interest at all........... :-( Whilst I was there he had a treat for sitting at least 5 times and I'm thinking why???? The dogs 4 years old and he won't sit without a treat? (Or so his owner thinks) What's gone wrong there, what happens if there are no treats, will the dog commit suicide? (Only jesting :-) )

Before you say so, yes, I know that dogs given treats into adulthood don't all act like that one, he was overboard and just saw humans as people to give him treats. But alas, he is not the first and I do see other adult dogs acting like that on walks, sniffing your pockets and owners continually giving treats for simple commands that a dog should have down to a 'T' by now.

I just think that some people, (absolutely not meaning yourself) use treats to the extreme, there is a time and a place and dogs, particularly pet dogs, once through the training process, don't expect it or need it, I can just see my brothers' (not) having stuffed pockets of food treats for their BC's and working Labs makes me laugh, I don't get it?

But, on saying that each to their own........ I'd still prefer to see older dogs adhering and enjoying treats rather than the CM brigade working away with their methods.

Not meaning to insult anyone, I just don't have the same ideas about it..........

>There's nothing wrong in using food rewards for life and it makes for happy dogs that will stay keen.

I'm totally with you on this. No animal can survive without food, but they can survive without praise or tummy rubs. Therefore food will always be a prime motivator; why limit your options?

Carrington, I agree with you, and treats when used to excess can cause problems- again, this is not a comment on anyone on this thread.

Anyhow back to Val's dog, from everything she says about L it sounds to me as though his behaviour (food aggression/resource guarding) may have its origins in the nest- perhaps the pups had to compete too hard for their food, or perhaps the scenario of all being fed from one bowl specifically triggered something in him. Given his early behaviours I think Val has done really well to get him to where he is.

To Val:
I regret to say that I don't think there are any easy answers for this because, from what you say, the behaviour is deeply entrenched and he has shown it to a greater or lesser degree for all the time you have had him. Unfortunately, food is the trigger and it is impossible to make your house a food free area- and, from what you say, it is food that he covets above all else and food guarding can be more resistant to intervention than other forms of resource guarding. I think it is a question of continuing to carefully manage L as you have been, but obviously try to avoid situations where food is out on display and seemingly up for grabs and be very careful where children are concerned.

It is good in one way that L's food behaviours are focussed on C rather than humans, but it is not nice for C. I'd still suggest getting the behaviourist in again, or one even better qualified in this territory. My concern would be that things could escalate- you seem to suggest that his recent displays of aggressions are worse, you use the term 'fly into a rage'. It is difficult to know at remote if he has got worse because C' hormonal status/maturing into serious competition for food is winding L up, or that he has had more and more opportunities to practice the behaviour. ' Flying into a rage' could be display for C's benefit or, more seriously, it could be that L goes into something near to a panic around available food.  It may be possible under expert supervision to try some interventions but I wouldn't advise trying these things without proper help and advice.

I hope this is of some use and I know you have had quite a few different views here, bottom line is without seeing your dog for ourselves and doing a proper assessment with history none of us can be sure about what is going on and how simple/complex/serious the behaviour is.

> dogs looking at humans as walking gum-ball machines

Gumball machine, fuss machine, tennis ball lobbing machine - whatever way, humans will (should) be looked at as a source of good things :)

The only difference from the dogs POV is that higher value rewards (what ever that may be to the individual dog) will be more highly valued :)

Gumball machine, fuss machine, tennis ball lobbing machine - whatever way, humans will (should) be looked at as a source of good things :-)

The only difference from the dogs POV is that higher value rewards (what ever that may be to the individual dog) will be more highly valued :-)

Exactly -on both counts! :) Which is why during a normal walk for routine recalls and similar I have a pocket full of fairly boring ordinary dog treats -dry and easy to keep in pocket, does not go off even when you forget them in there over the winter. :) For claw clipping (much more disliked than coming when called as there is nothing FUN about it at all) we have the Fish 4 Dogs treats in the kitchen cupboard as they are very much enjoyed, but for something REALLY good there's hot dogs or sausages or anything else similar -special.

I love how all my dogs jump up happily and wait for their treat every time I've done something such as groomed or cut claws or similar, and how excited they get even by the boring dog treats. And my 13 year old gets just as excited as my pups, and she deserves the treats as well, even though she'd do whatever she was told, treats or not. I'd rather see her with that bit of extra excitement as it makes both her and myself happy.

> that a dog expects a food treat for having her claws done

I'd never get Tara groomed without treats :) She hates being groomed but will put up with it as long as she gets an occsional treat. The same with Bramble getting his claws clipped. Both dogs get a treat when they come in from their last wee at bedtime. This was introduced to make sure that they didn't spend too long out in the garden. The result is that both dogs go out/come back quickly every evening which is much appreciated by us as saves us having to go out with a torch/coat etc searching a large garden :) :) Of course, I don't need to give them a treat, at 11 and 15 they would both come back without one any way. However, I ALWAYS make a point of praising good behaviour (but only with a treat for specific things - one or two a day) and I shall continue to do so :) :)

I used treats with a clicker to get Zuma to stay still while I check and wipe his ears, previously he had a major hissy if I did more than just hold his ear flap, he has NO interest in a toy as a reward and verbal praise was not high enough value.
I now just use a treat sometimes instead of every time so he doesn't take it for granted.

The late great trainer called Roy Hunter always said there were 5 Ps to reward your dog
Petting - rub ear, scratch head etc
Praise - verbal
Popping - treat into mouth
Play - quick game with toy
Pleasant expression - smiling at dog
His method was to pick which ever your dog found MOST rewarding, some dogs far prefer a quick game to any treat etc) and if poss vary them round so you didn't have a dog always expecting a treat.
Basically use whatever floats their boat :-D

> Basically use whatever floats their boat

I use all of them in a normal day - as, I would imagine, do most people :) :)

Thanks again, and especially to freelancerukuk and nikita - lots of food for thought there. (And also understanding and reassurance - that's sooo important!)

I don't think L's 'rages' are becoming more frequent with C. Before the recent one in the garden there hadn't been any for quite some time. (There were 2 with other dogs - both of which, looking back, we could and should have prevented.) But L 'going into something near to a panic around available food' is an apt description, I think.

So the main lesson for us is to not put him into those situations. Having food 'generally around' seems to be OK, so long as it's not accessible to the dogs. So that means no eating on our laps or on low tables - shouldn't be too difficult to implement. We also need to work harder at observing and understanding L's body language.

C doesn't seem to be too traumatised. I was worried for a while that it would make him fearful with other dogs, but that doesn't seem to be the case. And like I said he hero-worships L and wants nothing better than for them to be friends.

I think I'll monitor things for a bit longer, knowing there's always the option of getting a behaviourist in again.

Val

Val,

If it is not getting worse that is encouraging; unfortunately with a dog like this I think it is a question of lifelong management. Aside from being very careful about food, both in the home and away from home I'd also watch his mood generally, if something stresses him that is the time he is more likely to flip.

It is great that he seems reliable around people but my strong advice would be to never take that as a given, there might be that one situation where everything gets too much for him and a child is in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I agree with Nikita (who I thought gave you very good advice) that a solid 'leave' is important for both dogs. The ideal 'leave' is not only to relinquish and not take items, but to actually back away from them- compliance should be rewarded. If you can get both dogs to do this it becomes a conditioned rule that by leaving something they get something from you- whether a treat or praise, it should also help L to relax more around food items that he would otherwise compete for, knowing that neither he or C will ever get those items. It goes without saying that neither dog should be fed human food from tables  etc.., it should be crystal clear that both dogs never ever get human food, again that should help L relax a little.

Well done to you though, I know what hard work dogs like this can be.

This is not a reply to any one person but just on the subject of treats as reward.

I think treats for dogs that are food orientated are fine for training, provided that they are finally given randomly and properly paired with secondary reinforcers like praise. I guess that dogs that are being worked (working BC's Labs, other hunting/gundogs) have little need of treats since they are most likely doing stuff they find inherently and more rewarding than treats- the work is an outlet for hardwired drives etc.. I think to train something like obedience heelwork which is hard and not that enjoyable for many dogs, then treats or a favourite toy or a clicker are necessary, at least initially.

Where I feel a problem comes is is when people doing basic training constantly treat their dogs with very high value tidbits but fail to randomise the reward or pair it with a secondary reinforcer. The timing can also be really sloppy and all you do is get a dog that obsesses about the food and that will not do anything unless it knows you have food. I think it was Brian Hare who cited some research that most dogs learn and work best for medium to lower value food rewards given randomly- not initially , of course.

> we have the Fish 4 Dogs treats in the kitchen cupboard as they are very much enjoyed

Just as an aside, have you seen the Sample bags offered by F4D?
[I guess if you go to shows regularly then you can pick up stuff from them easily, but I found out about these via another forum. ]

For £4 (free p&p and £1 donated to charity) you get a sample package including little bags of all their kibble ranges and the star treats, plus mousse and sea jerky. Ordered one a few weeks ago and my pockets have been full, as mine are raw fed these are quite special and definitely get their attention, and much better value for money than buying commercially made 'training treats', without the worry of what's in them. The small bite kibbles are perfect for training as they are so small. Not even got as far as the mousse (can be frozen for future use) or the small bag of sea jerky, but as mine always have a "crunchy" for dessert, they will get used.

When these run out I will definitely order another.

Actually, there is research to show that in real life situations, always giving food gets better results.  The findings which said that variable reinforcement schedules were best, were based on laboratory trials on rats.  What works for a rat in a laboratory may not be true for a dog.  Give treats always in training.  This has no effect in competition - dogs will work just as hard, even though they suddenly don't get any treats whilst competing.  And anyway, you can give them a reward after they get out of the ring or finish the test - so the reward is just delayed.  The whole performance becomes a behaviour chain with a treat at the end, for the dog. 

I can't believe that in the year 2013 on an enlightened dog forum, there are still people advocating stopping using food rewards past puppyhood...

As my dogs got older I didn't always treat them constantly, but for along time had a supply of biscuits in coat pockets for those occasions of a good recall or whatever when out, I suppose random treats really along with voice and petting rewards. Currently dogless, but keep finding odd bits biscuit crumbs in pockets of coats I haven't worn for a while. No wonder other dogs keep sniffing round my pockets.

> Gosh, even with new pups I start whistle training immediately, a whistle recall = a treat, but after a week I will whistle, pup will come, and instead of a treat he/she will get a tummy rub, tickle behind the ears, happy voice and no more food treats, I wean them that quick from each command, they still recall for the praise alone........ they don't need the food anymore.

It's lovely that you have dogs that are happy to work only for praise - however there are many for whom it is simply not sufficient motivation, especially for something like a recall.  Within my own dogs, half will recall happily without food, Saffi in particular; for her, praise is more than enough.  But the other 4 require more incentive, they are much more independant and driven dogs so praise is simply not enough motivation.  I don't reward every singly recall - smaller ones, lower distractions, coming away from other dogs etc get praise but good recalls, those done on the way to see other dogs or when I don't want them to greet at all, or from bins full of wasted food at the park, are most definitely rewarded because they have resisted something extremely tempting - and it takes no time at all for 3 of them to twig if I've got something less tempting than what I'm asking them to recall from!

Rabid,I'm referring to the over justification effect- if dogs are rewarded with medium value food for obeying a command (kibble) and then that is replaced with cheese and then one switches back, some of the dog's motivation reduces- thus, in similar vein a dog that might work for praise only, when frequently rewarded with treats, is less motivated to work for praise only in future.

I don't know who is advocating no treats after puppyhood- if your dog works well for other rewards (and some dogs are not food motivated- I have one in my class right now) so be it, but correctly used treats are great for training. However, if used incorrectly, where the schedule of reinforcement is too low or too high they can reduce motivation, not increase it and each dog is different. However, at some point, to maintain normal basic obedience, behaviours should be put on a variable ratio schedule of reinforcement.

Nikita,

Yes, if something is rewarding to a dog it will work for that, but actions that are not rewarding have to be made more rewarding to encourage compliance and if the dog likes treats then why not. I have no issue with this, but I do see instances, as I am sure do you, where treats are used to excess, without proper thought, and that can hamper training too.

> but actions that are not rewarding have to be made more rewarding to encourage compliance and if the dog likes treats then why not

Oh absolutely - and that is why there are times when I can recall them without rewarding with food, because I have worked hard to make fuss more rewarding than it was :-)  Especially for Linc - there was a time at the start when he would recall once and only once if I had no food, and it would last for as long as a week from one unrewarded recall because nothing else was of enough value for him and he didn't see the point in responding to me again as he didn't think I'd have anything.  Now he does more recalls without a food reward than with.  It's still a work in progress but he is that sort of dog, I really have to work to motivate him and convince him that recalling is better than bogging off!

But yes, too many treats can hamper things for sure - especially if they aren't used properly, or are just given for no reason at all.  I saw one chap with a lab who was complaining about her having a terrible recall, yet at random points on the walk he was giving her gravy bones for no reason - she was so utterly focused on him at those points that a recall would have been beyond easy to train, if he just used them as rewards for compliance rather than just as treats.

The problem is not the treats, or even the frequent use of them, but how they are used...

Giving treats for no reason.

Showing the dog a treat first before asking it to do something.

Not giving the dog the treat immediately it performs the behaviour, but with a delay.

And so on.  Used CORRECTLY, there's nothing wrong with using treats frequently and indefinitely.