Thanks for that, I did do the search before but got nothing, its working now tho :D

Yes, I've read it. It was very good, although my dog was already trained before I got the books (I got the 30 day path to whatever whatever asweel), so I don't know about her training methods. Havind said that, I did read through them, and to be honest (without reading them in detail) the "training" section looked the same as any other dog training book Actually, I think I recomended it to someone here.
I must say, I do have a problem with a few things she says
(1) She says to eat before the dog (pack leader theory etc). Now my household is a very busy one, and Sophie is a family dog, not just mine. I sometimes come home late from work, so she sees my Mum, Dad, Sister sometimes eat before me. I'm not dis agreeing with Jan, but it does get me thinking. I should also add, that she still regards me as pack leader....I think!!! Also, I'm a Hindu, and its customery to let guests eat first, I wonder what Sophie thinks of this, and how this fits into the pack leader theory???dunno
(2) She says that if the dog walks ahead of you, or tries to push in front of you, then s/he is trying to assert his/her dominance.......but when I'm taking Sophie to the park, she pushes forward because she's so excited, and on the way back, she's fine. Maybe that theory can only be applied in certain instances???? again... dunno

Oh before I forget, to do with the first point, I read an article in Dog World (I think) about the "pack leader eats first" thoery, and a gentleman, who was an expert in something or the other, said that this theory doesn't hold up, because when food shortages are low, wolf mum's and pup's always eat first, so that the "family line" can continue. Such gentleman!!!!! :) Does anyone know if this is true?????

Hi Josh,
Eating first during times of little food is not an issue for most dogs as survival of the pack for the dog is not in doubt. It is not neccessary for the family to eat at different times for this to be an issue either. Most dogs if you show you appear to be eating their food will not pay much attention as there is no survival of the strongest at stake here either. Only if the dog has a problem and dominance is an issue to the dog may it may show signs of concern at the owners eating their food. If this is the case the owners (everyone including the children) all must show the dog they always eat first before the dog and reinforce to the dog that food is a privilage from the owner. It is only needed to continue until the problem subsides.

>Eating first during times of little food is not an issue for most dogs<

>Only if the dog has a problem and dominance is an issue to the dog may it may show signs of concern at the owners eating their food<

>It is only needed to continue until the problem subsides<

That all makes sense. Thanks Alan

Sorry, I'd like to add that whilst I was reading her books, I remember thinking that she was holding something back, she was very vague with how she described "treating" her patients, but then I thought, "well if everyone knew her methods, and how to impliment them, then she'd be out of a job!!!"
I know that books can also sometimes be used, not solely, but partial, as publicity stunts, to get the author into the public eye, I could be wrong......Having said that, her techniques seem to be working, and reading from past posts, a lot of people seem to love her!!
Josh_

Josh,

Just started reading the book, second chapter, after your recomendation, and the loan of the book from a very nice lady on the board who posted it to me for a read.

Let you know what I think.

First chapter seemed like a lifetime to get to the point that her dogs all had a fight after the leader died but moving on with optimism through the next chapter.

Pam

Glad you're reading it Pam. Please dont get me wrong, as my earlier posts do sound quite negative about the book (i realise that now!!!), but it was not intended in that way, otherwise I wouldn't have recommended it. Don't worry if the first few chapters seem like ages, if you can grasp Jan's idea's, then the chapters in which she deals with problem dogs will make more sense. I must say that the "ignore the dog for 5 minutes in the morning" really has worked for me. Sophie has placed me higher in her "what/who's important rankings", but to be honest, I still give her loads of love and attention even when she's not doing a job for me. I cant help it, shes too sweet!!!
Also, a tip whilst reading the book, dont try and concentrate too much on "how does Jan correct bad dogs?", but do look out for the hints which she gives to making you and your dogs relationship healthier. It is in that sense that I really enjoyed her books. There are so many dog books which when talking about a "good, obedient dog" teaches you the heel, sit, stay etc but this was the first book that I read (i'm not saying that this is the only one, I'm sure there are others on the market) which talked more in detail about "a good, obedient dog, around the house" (i hope that made sense). I also enjoyed an alternative method to disciplining your dog(s) and also, how to introduce a new member to your pack, without give it too much importance (i wont say how, I dont want to spoil the book for you).
Please let me/us know how you get on, your idea's and thoughts as you read each section. I like to learn from people aswell as books!
Josh

Will do Josh,

I enjoy reading books.

I have westies, smaller yes but big inside..

Pam

Hi Josh , your post encapsulates the reason I decided to use her method, I've been reading Dog training books and studying animal behaviour, particularly dogs for 30 years and I think I've read most of the well known authors from Woodhouse to Fennel, and while they all have valid ideas I was looking for something which my pup would instincively understand and respond to. I also wanted to train next doors Bull Mastiff-Rottie cross not to go demented every time he saw a member of my family (in the house as well as the garden !!) and to stop him tearing down our fence as he had the fence on the other side of "his" garden.
I have had quite a bit of success on both counts. My dog retains her bouncy character and also her sensitivity ( her breed is very unforgiving if you're at all harsh) and is well behaved in most situations.

I had a 21/2 year old and a teenager at the time and it was important that the dog respect my toddler and not see him as a toy or another puppy. Food bowl and bone agression were a particular problem especially where he was concerned and this was cleared up very quickly using her methods (other methods had also been tried but seemed to make things worse)
Both child and dog are lovely together now.

I can now go into my own garden again without being afraid that the mastiff next door is going to tear me to pieces, and in addition he responds to me better than to his owner when it comes to sit, down, off etc....(smug grin) Clicker training was also used to acheive this but I first had to get his attention and respect, which is more than his owner has achieved :D.

Dill

>and I think I've read most of the well known authors from Woodhouse to Fennel<

Which books have you found interesting to read, the good and the bad??? I'd love to go away and read them.
Thanks
Josh

Hi Josh,
Unfortunately in 30 years I can't remember every book that I've read but ones that come to mind immediately are the Woodhouse books (because I was training a rescue dog), Dunbar (both books and videos), Desmond Morris, John Fishers books, Gwen Bailey, a number of different Clicker Training books (a fascinating subject), and of course Jan Fennel.

The Woodhouse books served a purpose, but I found the methods involved allowed no acknowledgement of the different temperaments of different dogs or different breeds (or owners for that matter). In the early 80's she was the alternative to what I believed were mostly a bad bunch, but then our local library wasn't exactly the fount of all knowledge where these books were concerned. I didn't like her method then and I like it even less now, but I did achieve more with it than the local dog trainer believed was possible with that particular dog (but this took a whole two years of training 6/7 times a day, every day, in the end I think it had simply worn him down.)

The other books I found inspiring, all in their different ways (although I didn't agree with everything I read), in particular John Fishers books, Stephen Kings clicker books (the speed of learning is incredible and these books are particularly easy to use) and of course Jan Fennels books. I think the important thing is to keep an open mind, keep reading, learning and discussing and only use what suits you and your dogs.

The "eat before your dog" theory only makes sense if you (like a pack) all eat from the same kill (bowl).
Since Im personally not in the habit of sharing my dogs food or the other way around, I cannot really see how me standing beside my dogs bowl, eating a cookie, getting fat in the process, will make my dog think of me as his alpha.
But hey, if it works for her, than she has my respect.

:) true say!

Actually I've always been told that a wolf pack in times of shortage will always let the pups eat first, so where does that leave 'gesture eating'?

"gesture eating" ?

I think that means eating a biscuit before giving the dog its dinner, to show that you are in charge and will eat first.

A lot of the original work done on the way wolves live was done on captive wolf packs, and they apparently live and work differently to completely wild wolves, the latter will allow the pups to eat first in times of shortage (isn't that amazing?) instinctively so that their genes will be able to live on :)

Lindsay

Oh ok cool, if that what you wanna call it :).
It is amazing about the wolves letting cubs eat first. So where do people who agree with the "pack leader" theory, and how to impliment this sort of behaviour/mentality, stand on this argument????Anyone know? How do you all feel? Is this fact of any significancce to how we have been taught to approach our dogs?? Any thoughts??????
Josh

HI Josh

Take a peek at www.dog-dominance.co.uk (sorru useless at links, gave up trying ages ago :p )

My view is that there are very very few genuinely dominant dogs, ie dogs that want to take over the pack and be boss. I think there are huge misconceptions about dominance generally, too. I have known people say their dog is dominant when the dog is just being adolescent (do we call our teenage sons and daughters dominant when they misbehave :p) and in other ways whicb don't relate directly to dominance.

I often recommend books such as Gwenbailey's, which does go into the pack theory a fair bit, but I believe that for many people it does make sense, and that to an extent it works because the dog knows what is expected of it, has routine, etc.

John Fisher, who as you know was a great believer in becoming pack leader through eating first, etc wrote about his new views in his second dog behavioural course, but he died before he was able to carry on his work :(

I wish he was still with us: I feel he was a real mover and shaker, but yet got his hands dirty with dogs, having worked as a professional dog handler and in trials, and later as a behaviourist. And he was such a thinker, and never afraid to challenge his own ideas :)

Lindsay

Hi Lindsay
Thanks for that. It was an interesting read. I already have Think Dog by John Fisher but I'll have to get that book by Gwen Bailey
Josh

I have read Jan Fennel's book and found it very interesting and to some point applied her techniques when I first got my rescue GSD. My dog is a tail chaser and Jan Fennel's TV programme showed a tail chaser. Her suggestion was to say nothing to the dog, put its lead on and walk it away. I did this with my dog and all he did was walk along with his tail in his mouth. (He's quite clever, he can also walk up stairs holding his tail!). This method didn't work for me but it may work for someone else. I don't know if it worked for the dog shown on the programme as there didn't appear to be a follow up for this one. I believe most of the other cases successful progression was shown later in the series.

Hiya,
Just thought i'd put my 10p's worth in, I have read both her books, and find them very intresting, although each individual case should be reviewed before applying the methods, for example, some breeds are very sensitive, and wont know what to make of their mum or dad suddenly ignoring them!
Does anyone find her methods have failed when they have applied them to a particular dog/ breed? Just intrested to know.
Cheers.

Hi there!
having read the first book I thought alot of it made sense ( pamela look away now :D ) but I didn't like the one size fits all approach .
but picking up on the eating first thing -we used this theory with great success with our youngest son when we encountered a dominance issue .
having said that ,the eating first is not exclusive to her
Liz :)

Hi
And for my two penneth...I have known Jan personally for several years now..and was extremely sceptical of her way of thinking.But I had a female I was having desperate problems with and asked Jan to come over to help out, still sceptical cos my female was a fruit cake and I didn't believe there was a cure, I'd tried everything I could think of.
However I listened and acted on Jans advice and hey presto..it worked.She is a different female now, and is treated just the same as the others.
There's quite a lot of stuff involved and you have to be open minded about the whole thing.Understanding the true reason why a dog behaves in a certain way is the key.
Anyway it works for me.
Tracey

>There's quite a lot of stuff involved and you have to be open minded about the whole thing.Understanding the true reason why a dog behaves in a certain way is the key< True :)

I'd love to know what the problem with your bitch was, how the problem came about, how did you cure it, and what changes did you have to make? WOW, this is like our very own Case Study!!! who needs the book!!!:)

What kind of problems were you having with your bitch? What did Jan do to help?

Annette

Hi
I had a very nervous female, nothing bad had ever happened to her at all, and her behaviour was totally out of character to my others...she's beautiful and I wanted to show her but couldn't get her to stand her ground in the ring or be petted by someone she didn't know. ( she was never pushed ) She wasn't nervous aggressive, she hasn't got a nasty bone in her body with people or other animals.
She wouldn't play with toys or join and play with the others or us.I bred her so she had been out and about from a young age and had everything she needed, and loved to be cuddled but only when she wanted.
So her dominance and nervousness were confused.
Basically Jan gave us a daily routine to follow which went on for about 3 months,she was by this time 2 years old.
The routine involved..no socialising outside the home ! she was fed when we'd eaten,even if it was just a biscuit, she was called for a cuddle if she didn't come then we'd ignore her, if she came to us she was ignored, no fussing when we got home for 10 minutes and only when she was called,we could only touch her on the back of the neck, loads of different things really, Jan gave us a written routine.
It was a difficult time, because we'd never had to be hard like this on the others..we'd walk through the door and get bombarded with paws,face washes etc etc and cuddles whenever, they were on the bed at night and are treated like babies.
Anyway basically she now goes out happily and is happy with strangers,she plays with toys and jumps around with the others,and stands like a rock in the show ring.
So it worked, we had tried many things ourselves similar but not all.We don't treat her any different to the others now, she gets cuddles when she wants, we don't eat before her etc etc...so the routine doesn't go on and on..just a short time ( for us anyway )
There were never any harsh words or hard handling involved in the routine everything was carried out calmly,gently and we never put Nica in a position that would un nerve her.
We were still sceptical the first time we took her out, we'd seen a great difference at home but this was a familiar enviroment for her, but she was a different dog.
As for the other things Jan taught us, well it cost us £££ (well worth it)
and if I give all of her secrets away then she'll be out of business.
It worked for our girl and she's happy and contented now, we were'nt new comers to dogs and our knowledge was above average ( hence my scepticism).Jan just took us a bit further in understanding why Nica was the way she was......
Hope this answers some of your questions. :)
I know so many people like we were, are sceptical and believe Jan is just another person who self appointed herself as a 'behaviorist', but her methods and understanding worked, and as I said earlier we were not newbies to dogs and their behaviour.
Maybe we were just lucky, maybe it works for some dogs and not others but I for one can't knock what she did for us and Nica.
Tracey

My husband's collegue at work has just read the book and the change in his dog he is very pleased with. So Andy and I have brought the book and I have just started to read it so will let you know what we think when we finish it!

Julieann

Thanks for your story Tracey. I must say that there seem to be remarkable things that you can get the dog to do (or not to do, depends what you want) when you can execute Jan's theories. From your story, maybe these simple techniques are enough to enhance or alter dogs behaviour.
Thanks again
Josh_

As this program took 3 months, could it not be that the dog just 'grew out' of what ever was bothering her - after all most GSD's I've known don't mature until at least 18 months.......

Hi Digger
As I said Nica was 2 years old....and with all due respect, she would not have grown out of it..I know the difference between an immature mind and a troubled mind..
You are obviously a non believer..as I was ..so can't knock you for that :)
TRACEY

Hmmm, it was very interesting to read your story Tracey, as my GSD is displaying exactly the same behaviour.
She is like any other GSD with family members and strange dogs, but she will shy away from any strange hand and give a
warning little growl when pushed. All this with ears back and tail between her legs, so its all in fear, not aggression.
We really want to get this problem under control before it gets out of hand and we've started to carry little tidbits around with us, so we can feed her every time someone tries to make contact with her, hoping we can associate the experience with something nice.
Up to a point I dont mind her being wary of strangers, as this is the nature of the GSD, but I definately cant have her growling at people.
I'm therefore very interested in this routine you applied, but can understand that this is information that can not be made public.
I guess I will have to read the book for that! ;) Does Jan currently still practice as a therapist, or does she only write books now?

Hi WOLFWITCH
Sorry to hear you are having problems, unfortunately yours is worse than mine..Nica has never shown any aggressive behaviour even when she was feeling uncomfortable.
We tried taking her out, making it as nice as possible.Maybe this is not the way to go , as it didn't suit Nica either.
Basically before the dog is put under any pressure, you have to clear the mind at home.When she's ready, then take her out.As I said earlier, it's finding the true reason for her behaviour and dealing with that..and only then take her out in to the rest of the world.
Jan still practises her methods..If you email me direct I might be able to help further.
Tracey :)

Hi,
I have recently bought Jan's book after it was reccomended. I think some of the ideas make sense, the only issues i have is that it may be difficult to always get all members of a family to implement all her suggestions. For example i have 4 children from 6-17 years old and they each treat our springer puppy differently and i am not always here to ensure that they are consistent. I think it is far easier for 1 person to follow Jan's lead. That said i tried her suggestion to get my puppy to stop pulling on a walk recently and did see some positive results. I have not finished reading the book yet and Harvey is only 15 weeks old, so i will reserve judgement.

Both her books are currently on special offer at amazon.co.uk for less than £7 each.

I'm going on one of the Dog Listening courses in March.

I'll let you know what its like!

Blimey Keeper - are you rich? <G>

Unfortunately not!

I'd be interested in the details of that course please, and how you found out about it.
Another thing, about the Jan Fennel t.v. programmes, does anyone know if you can buy the series on VHS or DVD?????

Josh , you can find details here:

Dog Listener

HTH

Melody :)

Oh WOW, tres cool, thanks a lot Melody. I didn't realise she had a web-site

Woohooo, looks like I'm in for the course too, although I'm not going till May 1st :( ;)
Be sure to let me know what it was like Keeper!!
Maybe you can give me some tips on where to find cheap accommodation in the area too, cause
I dont own a tent unfortunately!

Will do!

Not sussed out the accommodation bit myself yet - I'd better get onto to sharpish!