Can 2 chocolate parents produce anything other than just chocolate?One friend says no,they will all be choc( with variations of choc ie choc and tan,choc roan) one friend says if both carry gold which they do there could be a mix of choc and gold??

what breed?  in border collies two brown/red/choco dogs could only produce brown/red/choco (whatever we like to call this gene)

This is a topic that comes up fairly frequently. Is anyone interested in putting such information into an article for Champdogs Blog?

In Cocker Spaniels, if two liver/chocolates (bb) are mated together and both carry for red/gold (Ee), then red/gold puppies (bbee) can be produced but they will have liver pigmentation which tends to be quite pale (pinky brown noses, lighter eyes etc)

> (whatever we like to call this gene)

Liver. :)

no such colour in border collies ;-)

but that is the colour.

Sorry shouldve said liver as thats the correct colour.always think chocolate sounds nicer though,its cockers

>  in border collies two brown/red/choco dogs could only produce brown/red/choco (whatever we like to call this gene)

They could also produce "lilac" if both parents also carry the dilution gene (d).
Or liver-based (bb) red if both parents carry the gene for Australian red (e).
Brown border collies carrying both the above in their makeup could also produce a very pale cream, bbddee.

as brown/red is a recessive gene the dogs will not carry the Australian red although they may carry the dilute gene... so they could ONLY produce brown/red pups (or the dilute form of brown/red - lilac)

if the 'colour' involved here is true (australian) red, then two of that colour will only produce that colour - it's another recessive gene

> as brown/red is a recessive gene

Yes, agreed -

>  the dogs will not carry the Australian red

They certainly could do, if it is in their lines. Other brown/liver/chocolate dogs can and DO carry a copy of the e gene where it is present within the lines and breed.

> although they may carry the dilute gene... so they could ONLY produce brown/red pups (or the dilute form of brown/red - lilac)

Yes agreed, and if they ALSO carry e then they can produce a dilute red which is more of a 'cream' colour.

< if the 'colour' involved here is true (australian) red, then two of that colour will only produce that colour - it's another recessive gene

As you said above. But they can also carry dilute d.
Unless colour genes in Border Collies do not operate under normal Mendelian laws of inheritance, of course... although all researach so far indicates they do.

yes they can carry 'dilute' which is of course in effect the original colour (ie blue is dilute form of black, lilac dilute form of brown/red)

mate two brown/red (extension of the black colouring) collies together and you have brown/red pups (maybe lilac if they both carrier dilute), they wont 'carry' true red though, sorry!

mate two true red collies together and you'll get true red pups..

If I was to mate my brown/red bitch with a true red dog ... both recessive genes.... with neither 'carrying' the other gene... the result would be a litter of black and white pups...all pups would 'carry' both brown/red and true red genes, but they would be black and white....as my bitch is tricolour they would also carry the tricolour gene and as she may carry dilute they may carry the dilute gene, as the dog I chose doesn't have any dilute, they wont be dilute...... interestingly although they would appear black they may also - technically - be sables... which I find weird...

Interestingly if I mated my brown/red bitch with a (black and white) son of the true red dog the pups would still be black and white.....all would carry brown/red and half would carry true red, but none would actually BE either brown/red or true red.....

ok found a black and white dog who may carry brown/red, tri and dilute as well as true red... another son of the true red dog above...

pups could be black and white, black tri, sable & white, brown/red & white/tri, blue & white/tri, they will also have 50% chance of carrying the true red (none would be true red as the bitch doesn't carry it) ... would be interesting to see what would happen with the next generation

> pups could be black and white, black tri, sable & white, brown/red & white/tri, blue & white/tri, they will also have 50% chance of carrying the true red (none would be true red as the bitch doesn't carry it) ... would be interesting to see what would happen with the next generation

That is absolutely how it works, as I was trying to explain above. Dogs can carry multiple recessives.
The next generation would be the same as the one you have described depending on what recessives are on both sides. It's possible to colour-test by DNA to see what colours are carried, which may be useful in future if breeders wish to identify carriers of clear red (e).

Clear red (e) will undoubtedly become more common as a recessive in the BC gene pool in the future, as breeders can't keep breeding clear red x clear red (for reasons of genetic diversity).

It does get complicated when talking about colours (different names for different colours in different breeds, etc) so to be precise when I am speaking about a certain colour I do try to clarify it using the symbol used by geneticists.

Therefore when describing Chocolate/Liver/red/Brown I will refer to the b gene, the recessive that produces this colour (no matter what breed).
Likewise, Blue dilution d
Clear red/golden/yellow e
Tricolour a(t) which is basically the black-and-tan gene/tan pattern plus white.
You can also have combinations of recessive, such as Lilac which is bbdd or even a lilac-based clear red (which will look pale cream) bbddee

And a host of others... As I said many are breed dependent due to certain colour genes present/not present in certain breeds, or being called by another name. But all behave the same way, regardless of their name and regardless of breed.... or species.

Dog genetics is fairly complex but is becoming easier due to the molecular research being done (at DNA level) and the fact that breeds have had closed gene pools for so long.... and because of this, I think it would be very difficult to write an easy guide to genetics (as suggested for the blog by Admin). Unlike the other species I have owned, worked with, bred and occasionally written about over the last 30+ years, dog colour genetics are far too breed-specific to lend themselves to generalisation.

It's unhelpful that BC people got into the habit of calling Liver/Choc/Brown Red, when it in fact is not, and Red is the genetic colour, that also is called Yellow as in Labs is it not?

> Red is the genetic colour, that also is called Yellow as in Labs is it not?

Yes it is Barbara.... further confused by the fact that it can be a very deep red in some breeds, but yellow or cream in others.

Take Springer Spaniels for instance - in the Welsh, the Liver colouring is genetically a dark Red/Yellow ee but in English, the Liver is Brown/Chocolate bb.

Rabbits were never this complicated! :)

They call it Red in Welsh Springers, never Liver, that is only English (I used to look matter a friends dogs who bred Welsh).

Some of the poorly coloured Liver English almost look like Welsh colour, but it is muddy brown rather than the bright clear colour that the true red is.

Oh you ahd Rabbitrs too.

I had Chocolate English where you get Tortoishell (a shaded red/brown colour with dark points, so woudl it be genetically sable?), Grey (Agouti), Black, Blue, and Chocolate.

I bought a supposedly Black bred doe and to a choc Buck two of the litter were Lilac (they went in the pot).  Obviously somewhere in the backgroudn there was Black x Blue breeding.  Blues were nearly always interbred with blacks to keep depth of colour.

> Oh you had Rabbits too.
> I had Chocolate English where you get Tortoishell (a shaded red/brown colour with dark points, so woudl it be genetically sable?), Grey (Agouti), Black, Blue, and Chocolate.

Yes I did... that's where my interest in colour genetics started about 36 years ago.
Tortoiseshell in rabbits (also called Sooty-Fawn or Madagascar according to breed) is also due to the e gene, but works differently than it does in dogs. In combination with the Agouti gene it gives yellow/orange/red rabbits - think Orange Rex and New Zealand Reds. Combined with non-agouti aa it produces Tort/Sooty Fawn.

There is a reasoning behind breeding Black to Blue to improve the Black. In some breeds of rabbits where Blue is present, they are bred to be a very dark blue (think Blue Dutch). In achieving this deep blue, they are acquiring a lot of 'darkening' genes. So when bred to black they can hand these darkening modifiers on, and produce a deeper black. That is the theory anyway, I think it was explained by the late Roy Robinson, and was certainly practiced by a very many old-time rabbit breeders I met and knew. There were other breeds where this wouldn't have worked - Blue Rex for instance, which are meant to be a light blue, and Beverens, also a lighter shade. But other breeds without a Blue variety could still produce a very deep black - Alaskas, for instance.

BTW... since becoming ininterested in the dog breed I have, I've always thought it interesting that 'fauve charbonné' as described in the French breed standard, translates literally as 'sooty fawn'.

BTW... since becoming ininterested in the dog breed I have, I've always thought it interesting that 'fauve charbonné' as described in the French breed standard, translates literally as 'sooty fawn'.

Ha -and they have the mask and ears too! :)

I'm closing this as the question related to Cocker Spaniel colour genetics and has been answered.