I just need to get this off my chest. Have just had Hattie's (nearly 8) renewal in and it's more than doubled! She was initially insured with M&S as a pup and their premiums were reasonable until they changed underwriters. I then went with AXA who were OK for a couple of years when they hiked their prices (for Dobes at least). So I changed again to VetsMediCover who were initially £18 pm and then went up to £28 pm, again a reasonable cost. I've just had the renewal and it is now £60 pm!!!. The Dobermann has now gone into their "select breeds" category due to a change in underwriters so premiums have increased. So as of 5th May she will no longer be insured. Her and her Mother will certainly be my last Dobes, the cost of insuring them is now beyond a joke. I've a nearly 10 year old Sussex Spaniel who's had major ear surgery costing thousands and mast cell tumours requiring surgery and chemo who only costs £35 pm to insure with AXA. My 4 Goldies cost between £14-20 each pm, again with AXA.

Rant over......

Ours aren't insured. Once you have a few dogs it becomes a huge outlay each month so we just put a bit by ourselves now. We can always cover any unforseen expenses and even on a bad year, we've done no worse than break even, compared to what we would have spent on insurance premiums.

I pay £140pm for 3 dogs with John Lewis on their premium cover for life. I have thought about putting it away but for 3 months of medicine on just one dog it costs me £1000 so whilst i have to claim it is worth it for me. Still an extortionate amount.

Sainsburys have just bought out a condition in theirs that not only do you have to pay your excess but also 10% of the claim on top!

I think the way forward is to open a bank account and put an ammount in there direct debit each month. Yes you can roll with the small bills but when you get an emergency that runs into many hundreds, it would cover it. Just wrap the dogs up in cotton wool until a decent ammount is in there. :)

I know what you mean, I can't imagine life without my dobes but it is getting ridiculous :-(  Both mine are insured with animal friends - but I don't recommend them.  They are sods for doing system-wide exclusions, and the excess past 8yrs old is high (£99 + 35% as standard).  The premiums are good - both of them are around £1 - but, the policies are both only 2/3 years old as I've had to swap Remy's almost annually through his life because of price hikes.

Soli's was always good, with Petplan - even at 10yrs old and claiming thousands annually, all conditions being claimed for and with the dreaded DCM, her last renewal was £38.  These days though that's the starting premium, even for a puppy :-(

Setting money aside isn't an option for me - credit card isn't an option, and with 6 of the 8 dogs with ongoing stuff, I'd never manage to get it built up enough and if two got problems at once, it's wipe it out in no time and I'd be stuck.

Not sure what I'll do with future dobes - less dogs is one step though!

Stopped  mine when they reached 9 years old as insurance tripled overnight ,put the £60 per month they wanted into the bank instead,then always had money for vet bills (this was a few years ago)
2 gsd's £10 per month from pups went up to £30 per month when they reached 9 ,just when you might need it .That was Kennel club & sainsburys.

I went with VetsMediCover because they didn't seem to have the policy of penalising different breeds (whatever the breed it was £18), although at the time I took the policy out there were a few "select" breeds with a slightly higher premium (£10 extra I seem to remember). So now they've moved the goalposts and included Dobes in with the "select" breeds and more than doubled the premium.

Because of how Hattie is mentally (I'm sure many will remember the ongoing behavioural issues I have with her and the many times I've seriously considered having her pts) I've always said if anything should happen to her medically I wouldn't go down the route of expensive/invasive treatments, she'd never cope, so have decided now that insurance for her just isn't worth the cost. It just seems ridiculous that I can insure 4 Goldies for nearly the same cost as 1 Dobe. :(

That's what we do - with 4 dogs, 2 of which are 8 and 11, it's not worth paying the premiums.

Years ago (at least 15) a Pet plan rep at a talk said that on average it didn't pay to Insure if you had more than two dogs, you were better off saving the premiums.

Re dobes, it doesn't surprise me that over 8 they are so dear to Insure as this is often the age at which heart issues etc start to occur, and also a lot of them start to die around this age.

Nikita- Nando is insured with Animal Friends. On his second renewal the cost when DOWN by a few pence! I wasn't aware that when he was older I'd have to pay 35% + the excess! That's not a problem but I didn't know this. I'm glad you mentioned it so I am aware as I have lifetime cover with them. I've heard they're not the best, though.

Re dobes, it doesn't surprise me that over 8 they are so dear to Insure as this is often the age at which heart issues etc start to occur, and also a lot of them start to die around this age.

That may be so, but it doesn't explain the extortionate premium increases when I had her with M&S and AXA as a youngster.....

It's all about making money for the Insurance companies.  Bad enough when risks low, extortionate when risks increase.

M&S have been known for that for years - it's not just dobes.  Remy and Opi both started with them and the premiums both shot up at first renewal so I switched them.  It's been like musical chairs ever since with Remy :-(

ETA what I'd like to know is why it's such a lottery - I've had problems with Axa right from the start with Saffi for customer services, last month they actually cancelled her policy due to a missed payment - 3 days before it was supposed to be cancelled according to the letter they sent me!  Yet others have had smooth sailing the whole way.  I know sometimes things go wrong but it's been consistent with her.  Her premiums have only increased slightly despite ongoing conditions, others have had massive hikes and it doesn't seem to necessarily depend on claim history or breed.  I've seen that with animal friends - Paige's has only gone up by a pound or two at her two renewals so far, yet others have seen huge hikes.  It's the same with every company - even M&S - some people have huge hikes, some don't.  It makes no sense to me.

Nikita, I had bother with Axa too, I eventually left, they took, on average 3 months to pay out, and only after I'd chased them up, they would also regularly lose claim forms, I was always a bit suspicious that this was just a delaying tactic.
I switched to Direct Line but left after a year when they bumped Daisy's premium up by £10 a month, I hadn't even claimed for her at all.
Now with John Lewis but can't say how good or bad they are as I've made no claims yet.

I know what you mean, and musical chairs is a very good description. I just can't be bothered any more with all the chopping and changing.

Even at 12+ years of age when I lost Hamish (Goldie) his premiums were £66 a month with AXA. This was a dog that had HD, spondylosis and general arthritis, with claims going in monthly for medication and thousands in claims over the time I was with AXA. Hattie on the other hand, and Lottie for that matter, have only had minor claims. Insurance companies do seem to do as they like and there is never any consistency.

I'm with Animal Friends, I han't had a problem with claims. Out of interest I just asked for a quote for an 8year 2mth Dobe and it came back as 18 quid a month, dosn't mention anything other then the usual excess and it is the same as I pay now for my 3 year old Dobe.

> It's all about making money for the Insurance companies.

but insurance companies are businesses. they need to make a profit or they can't trade. Pet insurance is not like our NI giving us a health service. With ever increasing vets fees they need to put up premiums to cover costs.

I honestly can't see the point of insurance. MAYBE if you have just one or two dogs, but even then you will likely spend years just throwing money away. Judging by this thread, the cheapest seems to be around £18 a month. Well I have 20 dogs, and only 2 of them (veterans) have needed any vet treatment (other than boosters and eye tests and similar routine) in the past year, and that came to something like £200 in total for the two of them. Had they been insured for £18 a month each (that is assuming my crystal ball had told me WHICH 2 needed insurance), the total cost would have been £432! I've had dogs since 1980 and I've never had any costing a lot in vet bills so think it's a lot better to save the money. :)

Having had to claim £3K for a Lab that developed neurological problems, £3.5K for middle Flatties Luxating Patella and £7.5K for Marleys heart problem before he passed on as well as various ops costing £300-800 I would be afraid not to insure. Having said that I have also had a couple of dogs with no claims made throughout their lifes so it really is a battle of nerve as to stop or not.

I am more on Marianne's side of the fence here - touch wood I have never had a claim big enough to justify the costs I would have had in insurance.

I would be interested to know what the outcome ahs been for some of these dogs people are saying they have paid/claimed thousands to treat.  i would also be interested to know if there would have been any other way to treat the dogs in question.  (Flattiemum this is not just directed at you there are others who have said similar things)

The reason I mention alternative treatments is when I had my old lab x she yelped one day in the park and was suddenly 3 legged.  Nothing was immediately obvious in terms of injury, swelling etc.  We went straight to the vets were they did some concious x rays which showed some arthritis but nothing significant in terms of why she was suddenly 3 legged.  The vets advised that the next steps would be mri and possibly specialist referral! We settled on a treatment of metacam and rest for a week or so and to keep monitoring.  She recovered well and went on for another 2 years enjoying walks, swims and retrieves.  I would always question if the next uber expensive step is the only one, simply because I am not insured and it may not be possible.

Its almost a toss of the coin in the decision you make to either insure or not.

The Lab had his turn at 10 years old and although various scans were carried out in the 2 weeks he spent at Glasgow vet school a cause of his problem was never found. He had nearly gone a couple of times when he was there but he pulled through and lived he was 14. he may have recovered on his own but I think him being in the right place saved him when he took his turns for the worse.

Luxating patella was done when he was 9 months old after an accident and he is now coming up for 5 and he runs around in the forests at home with no hint that a problem ever existed.As it was the case that he couldn't put his leg on the ground I think the surgery was the only answer as keeping him caged for a month from he did it until he had enough bone to operate did not help the situation.

Marley unfortunately only lasted 6 months from diagnosis at first visable signs of DCM and most of the money went on scans and drugs as I wouldn't allow him to be opened up for investigation as there was nothing that could be done anyway. The only choice here awas to have him PTS as soon as we found out....not an option.

Thank you, I suppose under those sort of circumstances it is nice to know you have the finance behind you to try and help the dog as best you can.  Certainly with your youngest dog there is no question I would have done the same and had to pay myself, with the other two I would have been faced with a much harder decision.

Glad to hear your youngest has recovered well and it is nice that you managed to give your other two a longer happier life

> I've never had any costing a lot in vet bills so think it's a lot better to save the money. :-)

It does help when you have breeds that are generally very healthy, and if your breeding your own it is a big incentive to breed as healthy as is humanly possible, as not only do your puppy buyers have to live with the results, but so do you, and we are more likely to have more dogs than the average pet owner.

> insurance companies are businesses.

Exactly, I think may people forget this.

The last 5 days of Hamish's life I spent £3.5k. The end result I lost him.

I've also spent a similar amount, if not more, over Winnie's lifetime (she's nearly 10). Both ear canals being removed and the mast cell tumours requiring surgery and chemo. These were carried out before she was 7 and she's still here, active and full of beans as only a Sussex can be. :)

As far as insurance is concerned, I don't know if I've just been unlucky with the dogs I've owned, but I've probably claimed more than I've paid out over the years. I don't feel comfortable having uninsured dogs, and I think Marianne and others have been incredibly lucky not to require expensive veterinary intervention, but it's got to the stage with the Dobes that I just can't justify the outlay. So long as the premiums are reasonable for the Goldies (and Winnie :) ) I will carry on insuring them and just hope to doG that the 2 Dobes don't need any treatment.

The vets advised that the next steps would be mri and possibly specialist referral! We settled on a treatment of metacam and rest for a week or so and to keep monitoring.  She recovered well and went on for another 2 years enjoying walks, swims and retrieves.  I would always question if the next uber expensive step is the only one, simply because I am not insured and it may not be possible.

Yes I've had a similar experience recently except this was the spine. The vet said he could refer for MRI and specialist opinions, so I queried what good it would do. The upshot of it was, well it wouldn't really do much good at all except explain more about what was going on, but treatment would not differ as I would point blank refuse to put an elderly dog through difficult spinal surgery, which would have been the only option after the MRI scan etc should we want to take it further. As it happened I could have afforded to do it all without insurance but I did not think it was in the dog's best interest -and as he is a neutered pet, not bred by me, not in any breeding programme, (and not from a breeder that cared) there were no reasons to find out details either. The vet actually agreed with me and said had it been his dog, he'd have done the same. So we treated with rest and anti inflammatories etc and touchwood, at the moment the dog is a lot better. 

Now obviously one day I may get unlucky and be faced with a vets bill for thousands, but it's the risk I take -and I have savings for the purpose. I still think it would have cost me more to insure over the years. And yes I do think some vets do suggest doing more and SOME will also charge more if they know the dog is insured. (Hasten to add, my vet is nothing like this!!)

When we had the shih tsu put to sleep I was discussed to hear the vet in the consulting room giving a new puppy owner a real hard sell on the companies own insurance.  That chain seems to like to do a lot of prepaid type deals so you are then tied in to them for life and they are very keen to offer the most expensive treatment route immediately only with alternatives if they are really pressed.  They would have put our little Goldie through concious x rays in the state she was in, I suspect it would have finished her off and to no avail.

> to hear the vet in the consulting room giving a new puppy owner

There is a case to be made for a new puppy owner (not someone with several dogs) to have insurance - particularly with some breeds. There are often posters here whose young dog has been diagnosed with some serious or lifelong condition and this could be very expensive if no reserve exists. Although I have self-insured for the last 7/8 years for my two healthy dogs, I am considering insuring any new dog for the first year or so.

I'm the same; with my last pup I decided to insure her for at least her first year; this is because now that I work at a vet's practice I see how often young dogs have quite expensive accidents! I'm also making myself put the same premium into a savings account; I became very slack at doing that (complacency?) and so didn't have nearly enough put by when it would have been very useful.

Zuma is the first dog I have had insurance for - 4 previous dogs - but decided it would be sensible as OH and I are both now retired. So far I have claimed as much or more than I paid in premiums, all for unforseeable things, ( eating non-edible stuff off table when I was out, Panosteitis, acute gastritis, and currently, recurring pseudomonas infection on his nose). Another way I look at it is it costs about the same per year as my car insurance which I have never claimed on -touch wood - but i still pay that every year - no choice - as I want to keep my car!
I realise its a different matter with multiple dogs but I only have one.
Chris

I must say that I advise all new puppy owners that lifetime cover taken out for the first year or so is a good idea for the single pet dog.

I always insure to cover any unexpected costs. My little Patt had parvo within the first 15 days of her cover, so was not insured so I had to find £1500 followed by Demodex, also not covered as part of the after affects of parvo. This hit me hard as a pensioner, so I was paying back my credit card for a very long time. Thank goodness her insurance was there to cover all the ops and specialist visits with luxating patella last year. I cannot imagine being without the peace of mind of insurance although I admit I only have 2 dogs now, but I have had up to 5 dogs in the past - all insured. I guess that I have had more in claims than I have paid out. ( Pet Plan )

>I honestly can't see the point of insurance.

You have obviously never owned a Talli Marianne! :-D His insurance is now absolutely ridiculous. It started off at about £19pm when he was a pup but it's now £150pm and is being renewed in June so lordy knows what it will be then. We have claimed at least £30000 over the years though. He turned 9 in March. This dog is just a walking disaster. If anything can go wrong you can bet your life it will! Don't know what we would have done without the insurance. He would have either have had to be rehomed or PTS at a young age.

For us, we would be without insurance our youngest is with pet plan covered for life & so far in the 1st year (only 9 months in) we have claimed £300 (became poorly on Boxing Day, of all days the consultation fee only was £120 ouch!). So wish we had insurance with our rehome girl due her being a giant breeds just the tablets needed if she has picked up an infection are usually £60+. Can literally see the pound signs in the receptionists eyes when she asks if we're insurance with her but she is so worth it :)

You will find the excess on a lot of policies is £75 plus and also a percentage of the claim, so most small things like one off ear or eye drops, or consults over minor things will not be covered anyway.

would be interested to know what the outcome ahs been for some of these dogs people are saying they have paid/claimed thousands to treat.  i would also be interested to know if there would have been any other way to treat the dogs in question.

My girl is insured with animal friends on a life time cover, its about £229 a year ish if i rember right so about £19 a month. My excess is £69. Were in her second year with them now but in the first year we had a claim for £1600 when my girl came down with parvo as her vacs didnt take which they payed. so the way i see it the insurance has payed for its self for about the next 6 years realy. If i didnt have the insurance i still could have payed it but knowing i didnt have to worrie about the bill was a lot off my mind as at one point we allmost lost her and we didnt find out the bill untill after she came back out of the vets. also if i didnt have insurance and had to pay that bill then if something else pops up in the nex 6 years i would have payed out much more than i would have payed the insurance.
Ive hurd some vets will do eatra tests if a dog is insured but when my girl was ill at first i thought she had swolled something and it was stuck and asked about an xray which the vet didnt want to do as she didnt think she had an impaction, she said she would do one if i insisted but she felt it unnessasery.

Just to say that with 10 flatcoats and 2 cockers , we just have to cover our own insurance.   The vast majority of things we go in the vets for wouldn't be covered anyhow.

We are VERY lucky that our vets realise that not all referrals are the same in terms of 'value for money' for want of a better term.     They acknowledge that some will ask first if the animal is insured.     We have had superb service when our little cocker broke his humerus the other week, and were sent to a super orthopaedic chap 100 miles away, although there are two others much closer.      The bill was probably half that of the closer practices, and the operation and 'customer and dog satisfaction' superb.   We just couldn't have had better anywhere.     Incidentally, they only asked afterwards, as I was paying, if I was insured.......

Jo

My three cost me around £70pm and then the 2 cats on top making total monthly out lay £119 pm
Trouble is my previous flat coat had three cancers which included a toe amputation radiotherapy for 2nd cancer and the op for the third. The last bill came to £6000 alone there is no way I would have been able to self insure to cover the amiunts that were paid out I would have had to have her pts as I couldnt afford treatment with those bills.As it was she totally recovered from the first two cancers and went 3 years before the third
Both my cats have had big claims due to accidents one a serious rta which coat around £4000. My pomx had her eye punctured by a cat ( not ours ) when she was a pup and that cost a good amount.
I am with animal friends for Brooke and Whispa, he has an exculsion on skin conditions as he had puppy pyroderma and then a hot spot , although that was "more than" that excluded that and then everyone else followed suit when I looked to re broke.
All in all I cant see how self insuring would work given how much bills can be and  with 5 animals the chances of a problem is going to statistcially more than one obviously.

oh has told me in the future 2 animals is the maximum we can have !!

> All in all I cant see how self insuring would work given how much bills can be and  with 5 animals the chances of a problem is going to statistcially more than one obviously.

Exactly!

To answer the question earlier about the high claim amounts - everything I've claimed has been necessary, and without a natural alternative.  Soli's incontinence only responded to propalin - I could lower the dose by feeding her less processed food, but nothing stopped the leaking entirely and it upset her.  Her arthritis only responded to trocoxil - no supplements ever touched it.

Saffi is much the same - she responds to coconut oil for her arthritis but still has to have PLT too, or she'd be in too much pain.  No other supplements besides the coconut oil touches her.

Remy's arthritis isn't covered unfortunately, nor is his thyroid - and they are both excellent of examples of why insurance is so useful!  His thyroid meds cost me £35 a month, his arthritis at present is about £20 a month and I've just spent £70 on orthapoedic boots.  And he still needs some more painkillers - his trocoxil helps but not enough by a long way, and he doesn't respond much to other non-steroidals or tramadol.

My pomx had her eye punctured by a cat ( not ours ) when she was a pup and that cost a good amount.

This is another example where having a good vet can make all the difference. I've probably told the story before. My first Papillon  had his eye punctured by a cat as a pup. I rushed him to the vet, didn't get to see my favourite vet, and the one I got to see told me there was nothing he could do other than refer me instantly (within 2 hours he said) to the nearest eye specialist, at a cost of around £2000 (needed to be paid on the day), or he could put the puppy to sleep. The pup was in terrible, terrible pain, constantly screaming. My husband was at work and I could not reach him, I had to get hold of a friend's husband to drive me to the vet. I did not have as much as a single penny on me, so could not get to the specialist within the next couple of hours. (Lesson learned there -I now have better emergency plans.) Well I begged to get to see the owner of the practice who was the main vet. The vet I saw actually sneered and said "He will tell you nothing different!" but I stood my ground, and the other vet appeared. Took one look at my pup and said don't worry, I'll do my best for him, then repaired the eye for me at a total cost of £400 and let me pay that later.

History then almost repeated itself a couple of years ago, but with a kitten. Her eye ruptured -we don't know why (was probably something wrong with her from birth as later she ruptured an eardrum and eventually had to be PTS aged just 2). By now I had a different vet as my other one had died, and in a different practice. Rushed the kitten in, and the vet we got to see said the same thing -specialist referral instantly. As I now had some experience I asked if there wasn't any way they could repair the eye there, mentioned the dog, and again the owner of the practice was brought in (i.e. the most senior vet). Took a look, said I'll give it a go, and he did it all successfully for just £150!

It's about being given the option of 'giving it a go'
regardless of cost / insurance etc .
Sometimes as Goldmali said it might not be possible to travel or you might prefer your usual vet to do a surgery or might come down to cost.

However , if a vet were to 'give it a go' and my dog were to lose her eye without having had the option of Refferal I would not be happy ( to say the least )

Some vets are better than others with eye stuff but if cost  or travel allowed I would choose referral for eye things same as I would rather an eye specialists dealt with my eye than my GP .

>All in all I cant see how self insuring would work given how much bills can be and  with 5 animals the chances of a problem is going to >statistcially more than one obviously

But that's exactly how insurance works :) :)The more animals that are insured, the more money the insurers make because they pay out less !! I've self-insured 2 dogs for around 7/8 years. In that time I have only paid out for one minor eye op £400 (because the dog is an oldie I had all the tests done before the op) and some exploratory tests because he seemed to be drinking a lot (nothing found) which came to around £150. When we stopped insuring we were paying £50 a month for the two. The insurance would have been around £4500 (probably a lot more as this doesn't take into account any price rises nor the fact that they are now 15ish and almost 11) - so we have made a large 'profit' :)

However , if a vet were to 'give it a go' and my dog were to lose her eye without having had the option of Refferal I would not be happy ( to say the least )

That's where it comes down to trust in your vet, and demanding to see the one you do trust. :) There are some vets I would not be happy to do anything to my dogs other than the very basics like vaccinations. Even then I once had the infamous one who did a litter of pups for me and said with a sad face that sorry, none of my pups had ANY descended testicles yet. Well that was because they were all bitches!!

Sorry Daisy that sentance should have said it wouldnt work for me self insuring because looking at my past claims history and having more animals I am more likely to need to claim than if I had one animal. yes the insurance company may be making out of me some years but with bills as large as I have had I know I wouldnt have been able to treat my animals.
For me it is the only way

Goldimal we couldnt go to a specialist vet as there wasnt anyone available at a weekend and at night. My vet with our agreement took a chance with his knowledge and skills and saved her eye. I still would have had trouble paying the bill without insurance

btw I am not pro insurance companies but see them as a necessary evil. My husband and I both worked in insurance ( life and pensions ) and have seen how the squirm to get out of paying out

Two big bills here:

My lurcher: TPLO (including primary vet investigations and rehab) £6000. Yes, perhaps a cheaper version of cruciate repair would have been available, but the initial costs at my vets for x-rays and the investigations at the referral vets (MRI) would still have been the same and were necessary. My primary vet only spotted lesions on my dog's spine which triggered the referral. Further investigations showed it was in fact two damaged cruciates causing the symptoms, the worst one was operated with TPLO - luckily so far the second one is still holding and not causing any problems. So either way it would have been in the thousands. The outcome was great, almost three years post op now and my lurcher is doing great at almost 12 years old.

My saluki: degenerative disk disease £2500. My primary vet couldn't find anything at all, nothing showed on x-rays that explained my dog's hopping at times and increasing aggression towards other dogs. I pushed for a referral where an MRI was done and a dry disc diagnosed that only slips when my dog hyperextends his back (hence why nothing showed on x-rays as his back wasn't hyper-extended then). The negative outcome is that nothing can be done and his back will get worse over time. The positive outcome is though that we know what it is, have given up agility and things like ball throwing and obedience where he hyper-extends frequently and therefore extra strain is put on his back (though he still gets free running and his normal exercise) and we can manage the condition like that and some supplements which altogether keep him pain free for now. This would not have been possible if further investigations had not been done and he would have just got worse, put on pain killers eventually and then probably diagnosed at a much later stage if ever... As it is two years after diagnosis he still doesn't need conventional pain killers (other than on very rare occasions when his back ceases up) as turmeric is doing the job nicely for now, which means no side effects to worry about just yet.

The said lurcher above also has had numerous accidents and bite wounds throughout his life (he's had over 20 anaesthetics)as well as other conditions that didn't cost thousands at the time, but usually several hundreds of pounds - none of those incidents/conditions could have been dealt with without treatment or with cheaper treatment... over his lifetime of 11 years with me, he cost around £20,000... more than I ever paid in insurance premiums.

For me, it's insurance all the way... it costs me a lot of money for my four dogs (a lot more than anyone here has quoted for their own dogs!), but I haven't got any savings tucked away that I could use if something very expensive happened tomorrow... I do still save a bit every month to cover uncovered treatment and hopefully be able to rely on my own money one day rather than insurance money!