My friends dog has just been diagnosed with pra,one parent was dna clear and the other hadnt been tested but according to all the internet sights thats impossible.The owner of her dogs mum is a very good friend and they live in a remote cottage and only have one male dog so theres no way she couldve mated with any other dog. the owner of the mum is very upset and cannot understand how its happened? Has this ever happened to anyone else and is it possible a mistake was made? x

Are you saying the dog is affected, that is impossible with one clear parent, a carrier is possible with one untested parent.

If this is the case then both parents of the dog need testing or a DNA test to confirm the sire.

yes definately affected but only one possible sire,they are very good friends and she was even there when she used the swabs on the stud because she posted it for her so the person who had the litter definately hasnt lied,i know her too,a lovely honest woman who hardly ever  comes in to town and she is very upset because obviously it looks like she has lied and she hasnt

I will watch this thread with interest as the same thing happened to my pup's sire, luckily my girl is clear so the pups (all endorsed) can only be carriers.

Reported to the KC and guess what....they have done nothing...surprise surprise.

I should also mention that she is willing to dna test both her dogs and offspring to prove there is no possible way there is another sire.

i have only heard them to be wrong with swabs that is why I always do my dogs via blood.

I also know this happening - clear x affected should be hereditary carrier but one of the progeny tested and he was tested as affected.

I am confused, I thought you said the sire was untested, then who is the "stud" your friend witnessed being tested?

The mother was untested the sire dna tested lady owns them both

Sorry I thought dam was clear and sire untested.

I hope that they find out what has gone wrong, have they contacted the Lab for advice, I have heard of them retesting free to rule out contamination.

yes they are retesting x

I bought a boy last summer, supposed to be hereditary clear, from hereditary clear parents.  Grandparents tested clear, I had my boy tested as I wanted to use him at stud, he came back carrier, got in touch with his breeder, she had her hereditary clear bitch tested, she came back AFFECTED!!  It seems the owner/breeder of his grandparents haven't been truthful and have either listed the incorrect dogs as her parents, or have sent in the wrong bloods for his two dogs, Optigen still had the bloods of his grandparents, they were retested, and both came back clear, which proves they are not his mums parents

Of course he's denying it, putting the blame on Optigen etc.  but it is being taken further!

> I will watch this thread with interest as the same thing happened to my pup's sire, luckily my girl is clear so the pups (all endorsed) can only be carriers.<br /><br />Reported to the KC and guess what....they have done nothing...surprise surprise.

What would you expect the KC to do? It would surely be up to the owner of the pup's sire to take this up with the lab concerned. Certainly in other cases (like Sharon's mentioned below), the lab has been very pro-active and in other cases I've come across, both a BVA opthalmologist  and the lab concerned have been involved in investigations. No gene test will ever be 100% reliable because human beings are involved and humans make errors, sometimes accidental and sometimes sadly deliberate.

we suspect another dog who is a carrier is the sire but the breeder is denying this. She has changed her story several times. The KC are involved as the pedigrees may be false but that was 6 months ago.

Usually the KC ask for DNA profiles to if there is a question mark over parentage & will cancel registrations where parentage is proved to be wrong. Incorrect parentage is probably behind quite a few of the "wrong" DNA test results but proving it can take time, especially if there is a lack of co-operation from one of the parties involved.

The KC have not asked for DNA profiles. They have asked the breeder to have the hereditary clear alleged sire to be retested but that is all we know at the moment. I suspect the breeder has not done this.

My boy was one of 10, the KC are now talking of retracting all the pups registrations as the grandparents aren't the grandparents.  The KC are very involved, in fact Hamish Cormie (who does our dogs eye tests) is also involved and brought our case up with the chairman of the KC at a meeting recently.  He did say it will be a very long drawn out process but they do take these cases seriously, my boys breeder has decided to take it further

at least now with Idexx doing many of the tests 3 times cheaper than Optigen with Optigen paperwork let's hope more will go through them. Idexx are the only Lab who insist that vets only can do the test and not the owner of the dog. This surely should be the way to go for all Labs?

I thought a vet had to do them anyway, when I had my guys done, the vet had to check the microchip number to make sure it was the right dog. Do the KC accept results from Idexx?

the swabs didnt need to be done by a vet which is why my friend was there as a witness and she posted it too

Antagene the swabs have to be done by a vet, but with Optigen they just have to be witnessed and signed by the witness, personally I think all DNA tests should be done with blood.

With the system being flawed as somepeople are less truthful than others, I would test my dog for the condition even if it was from clear parents, as in life (and I have found the hard way) that people lie to save face.

Lynneb don't ask me how it happens because they are so much cheaper but the paperwork that you get from Idexx is actually by Optigen!!!!

which tests is Idexx licenced to do by Optigen (as Optigen have the exclusive patent for many of the tests).

I know PRA test don't really know what else. I'm sure they will advise if asked.

>With the system being flawed as some people are less truthful than others, I would test my dog for the condition even if it was from clear parents, as in life (and I have found the hard way) that people lie to save face.

Which is exactly why I had my boy tested even though he was supposed to be hereditary clear.

I may be missing some thing If that is the case please excuse me .
One of the parents has been DNA tested and been passed as clear the other parent has not been DNA tested. Should this be the case How does any one know the status if the untested parent?.The untested parent would only be clear if its parents were both clear.
Clear to clear = clear
clear to carrier=50%clear 50%carrier
clear to affected= all carriers
affected to affected= all affected
carrier to carrier =50%carrier 25%affected 25%clear
carrier to affected=all carriers
This is the official list from the AHT
Hope this is help full

The OP said the dog in question is Affected - one parent is supposed to be DNA Clear so it does not matter what the status of the untested parent is as you quoted below

Clear to clear = clear
clear to carrier=50%clear 50%carrier
clear to affected= all carriers

The dog in question cannot be affected if parentage is correct - but it IS affected - therefore either DNA test is incorrect or parentage is wrong.

> carrier to affected=all carriers

Actually, Carrier to affected gives 50% affected, 50% carriers.

I stand well and truly corrected That will teach me  not to do things whilst looking after grandaughter Having re read properly  so now  see what was  said Plus error on list from AHT  due to watching grand daughter tipping dog water bowl over bless her  not on floor but all over her head 

I hope you manage to get this sorted and glad they are doing a retest.  Not for PRA, but I do know someone who had a DNA test for coat colour and came back as a carrier of chocolate.  When the dog didn't produce any chocolate puppies he was retested and found he didn't carry the colour.  Unfortunately, although rare, it is possible for a lab to make mistakes due to human error.

> When the dog didn't produce any chocolate puppies he was retested and found he didn't carry the colour. Unfortunately, although rare, it is possible for a lab to make mistakes due to human error.

This does sound rather worrying, as of course dogs' lives depend on the result; not for colour but for the inherited diseases. Someone earlier on suggested the blood tests are more accurate than the swab... If this is so, should published test results show whether it was done by swab or blood test?

[I will be watching Jeremy Kyle with a whole new perspective in future].

There is also the possibility that the test was carried out incorrectly giving a false clear result. Does the DNA test cover the form of disease the dog is affected with?

In schips we have MPS IIIB testing since 2003 via Penn State.  I've tested over 15 dogs in that time yet still have to test progeny of a 'tested clear x clear' mating as at the time of the Dam's testing their fellow was failing to complete the test correctly.  We only found out when a tested clear x clear mating pup was exported, this animal was used and progeny tested, with Carriers produced!  This is impossible gentically speaking so investigations were undertaken and the test withdrawn for a yr whilst the 'problem' was dealt with. 

With this in mind I am testing my girl before mating even with clear x clear parents to safeguard any pups I have.  These DNA tests are only as good as the person running them.

DNA tests carried out at home have worried me for several years.  We were carrying out sampling for DNA research in one of my breeds, initially the sample had to be blood, but as the reasearch dragged on swabs were asked for.  The conditions to make sure they were accurate and not contaminated by other dogs was explicit and strict, it seemed to me that in a multi dog enviroment there could be problems, or even  a sort of slapdash attitude by some owners?

There is research going on into Glaucoma in my breed (it's open angle do no clinical predisposition to check for).

I have just sent of swabs for all 6 of mine.

I got 6 glass tumblers to stand the individual swabs in to air dry ensuring they were not within touching distance.  Not only would I not want to have that many have blood taken, at least one of mine would need to be sedated in order to get a sample, as she has been a right little madam since she had blood taken out of both leg veins for prcd-PRA testing when it first came on line when she was four months old (it added £100 to the cost of her Rabies titre blood test). 

Optigen have stated they prefer bloods but still accept cheek swabs when my boys results came back not as expected they asked for samples of blood so they could retest.

The only problem with cheek swabs is when my dogs are together and playing they do 'mouth' each other, which could then cross contaminate the DNA samples, so I have had to keep them all apart overnight

Brainless, it's not contanimation after doing the swabs I was thinking of, but cross contamination between the dogs.  We were told that to make the swabs reliable dogs had to be seperated from other dogs for at least 2 hours, and away from all food and water sources for that time too.  So to be reliable caged alone for 2 hours prior to swab being taken  Knowing that some people will always take the easy route I can readily imagine that some will simply take the swabs and not bother about the islolation process first.

Have to say that has always worried me most about testing litters of pups as my breed club insist, if a carrier is used.

I think it far better that the new owner if they are going to breed have their own pup tested, as there should be no affected pups when one parent is clear.

I also think it might be wise to check second generation hereditary clears by testing, the price is reduced.

Sharon any news re the parentage or DNA status?

Oh yes, the breeder of my boys grandparents lied about parentage, the dog he listed as his grandad wasn't, and another dog that was pra affected was, he really should be struck off, it's not the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last time he's done something like this too.  Took 7 months but he finally signed the KC form to say he had put down the wrong dog!!

So quick answer is that a specific gene DNA test cannot be wrong (except for the linkage tests where it is a probability based on a section of DNA).  The most likely cause of improbable results is human error/dishonesty.

Just to mention that my pups sire's alleged parent, who was hereditary clear has since been neutered and rehomed, not retested as the KC requested. KC have now closed the case after over a year. Now you can understand why I have no faith in the Kennel Club.

I very much doubt that there is legally more that the KC can do, other than requesting retesting ....

Just a question for anyone with legal experience. But what the owner of the sire has done is it not fraud ?
He has admitted that he put down the wrong dogs name and falsified documents. Also the breeder of the puppy would appear also to be implicated.
May be worth taking some legal advice, if you bought the puppy intending to breed in the future and now you are unable to do so, also the stress over a long period of time that this has caused you.
It may be possible to claim compensation.  The monetary aspect may not be important to you, but in my experience the best way to stop people like this is to hit them in the pocket, and that may stop them doing it again. Also a court case may result in a report in the newspapers, which would mean a loss of reputation if the case is proved.

Certainly is fraud.

Though I don't see how the breeder would be implicated if it was the studs sire who was wrong, the bitch owner would have used the dog supposing the pedigree to be correct.

The problem is the cost can be prohibitive, though small claims is better than nothing.

I would imagine that a disciplinary case could be raised with the Kennel Club, don't know if the person involved has to put down the complaint fee????

The breeder is still breeding and registering the pups with KC, so basically she has got away with it.

Now your confusing is it the breeder who falsified parentage or the stud dog owner?

What have the kennel club said they are going to do about the incorrect registrations?

Have they changed the pedigree records of the affected offspring and grand offspring?

In my case it is the studs breeder who has falsified the parentage but the KC have done nothing about it. They asked that the studs sire be retested but this was not done and the studs sire was rehomed. No follow up. The KC are rubbish and only interested in getting your money. This is from an ex assured breeder.....no more money from me except registrations

There is probably good reason they are an Ex assured breeder, and how do you know they will not follow up the falsified pedigrees,  the fact the dog is not going to be retested is neither here nor there and they can hardly demand it especially if he is no longer in their possession.

A complaint about falsified pedigrees needs to be followed up.

I assume they have admitted it or there is proof (without which the Kennel Club cannot act).

They certainly do act in such cases as there have been some quite high profile disciplinary cases in the time I have been in dogs.

In my case the grandfather of my boy has now been amended on the pedigree, but the KC said even though his mother was bought for breeding and shown as hereditary clear that ANY breeding stock should be retested if you intend breeding as you would be found libel if you ended up producing affected pups, luckily this is exactly what I did with my boy, he was purchased as hereditary clear, but decided to get him tested for my own peace of mind, this is when we found out he was carrier, he has now been neutered and rehomed.