Hi, Im new here, this is my first post.
Iv been trying to look for information online, but thought it would be better to join here and get some help from people who know :)

We are looking to breed our girl when she is old enough but have lots of questions.

She is a Border Collie and only 7 months old yet, we want to research everything now so we can do everything right.

Could you tell me about health tests? I believe the right age is between 2 and 3 years old, and about the 3rd season?
I have so much to learn and am looking forward to it :)

I'll start the ball rolling, is she a working dog or a show dog?

Please be prepared to be asked loads of questions and don't be upset it really is best, to find out exactly what you have in mind and why and then we can offer the best advice.

These are the health tests advised for responsible breeders http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf

Hip scoring, Annual eye testing, DNA test - CEA, DNA test for CL, DNA test for TNS
One off special Eye testing - gonioscopy only.

The first thing you really need to do is join a breed club, and get as much literature regarding breed health.

Responsible breeding is about breeding for a reason (other than reproduction).

This is a breed with a lot of issues that can be tested for, and these tests are not cheap.

I would be surprised if you had any change out of £1000 to fully health test your bitch. 

It is also a numerically strong breed with a lot of casually bred, non health tested and unregistered litters readily available, so the price for puppies tends to be quite low. 

So generally only people with a good reputation within their field:- show, sheep dog trailing (where the dogs will be ISDS or dual registered) or Obedience, Agility etc workers, are able to charge a sum that would hope to cover the expense of all the testing and rearing costs for a one off litter.

So is your intention to found a canine dynasty in the particular field. 

If so then the first person you should b e speaking to is the bitches breeder, and possibly the owner/breeder of her sire, and they really should be that kind of breeder themselves, with a good record within their field in Border Collies (not someone who just breeds litters).

This person will usually be your main mentor, so that you can learn what you need about the dogs in the background of your bitch and any potential mate, introducing you to others within the breed with the knowledge necessary to breed good dogs.

Anything else is just producing puppies, and this is a breed with more than enough pups being bred by wrongly motivated people, and too often homed into inappropriate homes, then ending up in rescue, as the breeder is not there to take the long term responsibility.  

Is she KC or ISDS (or both) registered?  Are there restrictions?

what is she genetically clear of?

DNA tests (if not genetically clear) are for TNS, CEA and CL - have a look in pedigree if you need the CL but the first two are essential if not genetically clear... these are from blood and can be done at any age
Hip Score (over 12 months) and what are her parents, grandparents hip scores etc - do after 12 months of age
Eye test - general (for PRA and CEA) and gonioscopy (for narrow angled glaucoma), eye test can be done at any age, but generally around 12 months....

What is she like temperamentally?  What are her family like?  What is she like conformation wise?  Are you doing anything with her?  Like showing, obedience, agility etc???

Why your bitch?  There are a lot of border collie pups out there....are you prepared for the possible heartache, expense etc of breeding?

Have you looked on the epilepsy data base to see if that may be an issue?  Have you spoken with her breeder and are they supportive?  Have you considered other things, like will you sell the pups? Will you have them back if their homes don't work out?

Have a look on Anadune... you'll need to 'join' if you haven't already, but this will give you some indications of 'lines' and possible health issues....

Also, after doing the research you might realise the girl you have, might not be what you would like to use as a foundation for your breeding. As often the dog you have has been bought as a "pet" and once looking in to the field more (be it showing/working), we realise what we need if we are to breed and many end up purchasing a another dog :-) or two or three... and only years down the line breed that litter they dreamed of :-).
 
I dreamed of breeding with my first girl (looking back, with the knowledge I have gained over the years -she really was not of the quality to breed with!). 20 years down the line owning the said breed, I finally bred my first litter! and as luck goes, ended up with 2 pups and £3000 out of pocket(vet fees, stud fee... not counting the cost of healthgtesting etc!) But that is breeding for you...

You will be very lucky indeed if you have happened to purchase a dog that is of quality to breed, with the right kind of breeder to act as a mentor and right background and health tests results and that excels in your chosen field.Unless of course you did do the research before you purchased her and got lucky :-)

She isn't a show do :)

I dont mind questions at all, I am here to learn as much as I can and am fully prepared for a bit of a grilling :)

Thank-you very much for the link you provided, I will bookmark it. Also join a breed club.

I know there are alot of my breed around, and I dont want to be another one producing puppies 'just for the heck of it'. I care a great deal about my breed, having been brought up with them my whole life, and also choosing to continue to share my life with them now I am married and in my own home :)
I have spoken to her breeder, who is more than happy to be my mentor throughout this process. She is endorsed so she will have all her health tests (regardless of costs) before the endorsement will be lifted anyway.
Im more than prepared that her health tests, together with everything needed to raise a litter, will far outweigh the amount of money we will get back, we dont mind that at all :)

So is she a working collie or are you going to do agility or obedience? What is her background does she come from working stock or show stock - did you buy her as a foundation bitch.

She is KC activity reg. She is endorsed so cannot be bred from unless the breeder says she is happy with her, Iv spoke to her and she says if she passes all her health tests she will lift these endorsements :)

Thank-yu for the list of tests needed, I will take notes of these now.
She has a lovely friendly, playful temperament, but I guess I would be quite bias!

We are doing obedience, at the moment she is working towards her bronze, and we will keep this going up to gold, as I have done with my others.
We also hope to start agility once she is 12 months old :)

She is currently doing obedience, working towards her bronze at the moment and once she is 12 months old we are going to start agility together.
Her dad is a KC reg dog who does obedience and Canine Freestyle :)
Do you mean did I buy her to start a breeding programme? No, I dont want to breed alot of dogs or anything like that, first and foremost she is part of our family and always will be. :)

Beaming from ear to ear here, at last someone who is being sensible and doing all the right things. :-)

What I would strongly suggest prior to potentially breeding (all being well with your bitch health and competitive wise) is along with all that has already been said,  also see if you can make friends with others in your breed via the breed club and whilst competing and over time ask, (as well as with your girls breeder) if you can witness matings, how to care for a bitch in whelp, bitches whelping and in turn learn about the difficulties that can happen with whelps and the dam by being there, it is how I learnt from the ground up and the most valuable way IMO.

You have plenty of time to place yourself around such people and learn from those who are willing to teach.

Wishing you the best of luck and hope all goes well with your girls future results. :-)

Aw thank-you :)

Thats such a great idea, I hadnt actually thought about that before!
Im sure my breeder would be happy to help me witness these sorts of things, and become involved.

I just really want to do everything properly and already know if she happens to fail her health tests she will be neutered like all my other dogs and Ill still love her more than anything :D

She is KC activity reg.

I'm surprised this hasn't been picked up on. Sorry to add a downer but I would seriously think twice about breeding from a bitch that isn't KC registered or ISDS -any dog can be activity registered, whether purebred or not. Her pups would not be able to bring anything to the breed. I can understand that people will chose to breed from a dog or bitch that isn't registered if that dog is outstanding in any way such as being a top obedience winner (not just the basic GC tests but championship obedience shows) or practical working dog in any other way, but you are basically talking about just producing pets from a pet -albeit doing it far more responsibly than the average person who doesn't care one bit about health testing. Breeding should be for the better of the breed, to bring something of value to the breed, and the bitch being KC (or in this case ISDS) registered is vital unless she really is expected to produce top working dogs as offspring. I'd work her for a few years and THEN make a decision as to whether she is of high enough quality to be used for breeding. She'd have to be very good indeed to attract anything but pet buyers, and producing pets for pet owners, in a breed overflowing in rescue, is not a good enough reason to breed I'm afraid.

Also don't forget that whether you want to be a breeder or not, you are a breeder the moment pups are born, and you will be responsible for those pups for their entire lives, always being prepared to help the new owners with advice or taking any dog back at a moment's notice at any point during their lives -it's  huge commitment.

Is she KC or ISDS reg as well, the OP said she is endorsed by the breeder. I didn't think that applied to Activity reg dogs as any owner can do the reg for that for any dog?

exactly as a working register dog then you only have to say dam unknown/unregistered to register any pups :-( so don't understand how the op can be saying about restrictions... there are plenty of what's called 'working sheepdogs' about.... if she's ISDS then she shouldn't be on the working register, but on the breed register....

Yes you can endorse on the activity register, see the form:
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/378/form5.pdf

On her activity Register Certificate it says 'Endorsements- Progeny not eligible for registration' which, the breeder says she can lift if she passes her health tests.

its irrelevant, you just don't use the 'KC' registration on the puppies registration, it's totally meaningless :-(

> its irrelevant, you just don't use the 'KC' registration on the puppies registration, it's totally meaningless :-(

Not sure what you mean, can you explain?
You can certainly endorse Activity registered dogs as not for breeding. And Activity reg dogs are KC registered - just not on Breed register.

And I would guess that there are a lot of successful Agility, OB and other discipline dogs out there solely registered on Activity, there is nothing to prevent a good working line of these dogs being bred and registered in this way, independent of the KC breed register and ISDS.

They don't have to be collies, even.... nothing to stop someone developing their own line of mongrel sport dogs if they have the parents and ancestors with the success, winnings and the right ability, all registered on Activity.

And I would guess that there are a lot of successful Agility, OB and other discipline dogs out there solely registered on Activity, there is nothing to prevent a good working line of these dogs being bred and registered in this way, independent of the KC breed register and ISDS.

Yes and the operative word is successful -which you cannot know of a 7 month old pup so it's pointless planning a mating at this stage.

there are plenty of excellent WSD lines - ie those not registered with KC or ISDS, but on working register you don't have to 'admit' on the forms who the parents are, there's no restriction on registering the pups, you simply say 'bob' or 'annie' or whatever...... not if you're acting responsibly of course ;-) but there's very little they can do about it.... due to an accidental mating I have a dog on the working register... both parents are on the 'breed' register so to get her on the working register her sire is 'unknown' or she wouldn't have been eligible due to catch 21 situation...

> Yes and the operative word is successful -which you cannot know of a 7 month old pup so it's pointless planning a mating at this stage.

This is very true of course. I do not know if she will be successful yet, but she is showing a great deal of promise and is a very nice little dog, Id go as far as saying she is the nicest BC iv ever had the pleasure of owning.
I don't see why I shouldnt research breeding at this stage, surely the more information I can get now the more prepared I will be when & if the time comes??

I have already said- if she doesnt pass her health tests or her temperament changes for the worse she will not be bred from.

I am trying to do this the right way :)

> Do you mean did I buy her to start a breeding programme?

If you are not intending to use her in an extended breeding program you need to ask yourself why breed from her at all, with all the risks involved and the responsibilities for the puppies for their whole lives, especially as this is a breed that has a broad gene pool and if anything too many puppies bred.

Obviously you won't know yet, but unless he has something outstanding to offer the breed, then perhaps a more sensible option would be to buy your next puppy from a top competing dog and bitch from a breeder that is known to produce excellent working dogs (if that is what you want).

You will then have the benefit of a breeder who knows well what lies behind their dogs, which you will take years to learn, and it will cost you a lot less financially and emotionally.

Of course soence you have become involved in teh breed more, you may decide that tyou wodul prefer to foudn a lien, and may prefer to purchase anotehr bitch aas a foudnation that is full breed registered (KC or ISDS), and become a breed custodian.  The reason I say this is that you will ahve more background udually in a fully registered dog, often Activity regitered dogs have incomplete/unknown peidgrees.

This is very true of course. I do not know if she will be successful yet, but she is showing a great deal of promise and is a very nice little dog, Id go as far as saying she is the nicest BC iv ever had the pleasure of owning.
I don't see why I shouldnt research breeding at this stage, surely the more information I can get now the more prepared I will be when & if the time comes??

what are you planning to 'do' with her?  have you had a look on anadune which is a great resource for border collie owners, however in general only ISDS/KC dogs (across the world) on on this database, but it is fascinating :-)

> what are you planning to 'do' with her?

We hope to get her obedience up to gold level, she is working towards her bronze at the moment :)
We would also love to start agility with her as soon as she is old enough. :)

come on lets not shoot someone down for trying to do it the right way, could do much worse. OP will be scared away with a witch hunt

> due to an accidental mating I have a dog on the working register... both parents are on the 'breed' register

Then unless the sire was the dams Father, Son or full brother, then the litter could have been registered, (unless of course the bitch had already had too many litters or was over or underage).

come on lets not shoot someone down for trying to do it the right way, could do much worse. OP will be scared away with a witch hunt

But Louise we are talking about a btich NOT registered.

I am trying to do this the right way :-)

I realise this and all kudos to you for it BUT the right way should always start with the very basics -one of which is being KC registered. Activity registration is in most ways equal to not being registered at all, it's only there so that those dogs can compete in for  instance agility or flyball even if they are rescues of unknown background. Hence it is the activity register and not the breed register. In the rare instance such a dog is bred from, it would be because it was outstanding in some way, and with all due respect, the GC tests are all just very basic pet obedience and not a reason to breed from a dog.

> We hope to get her obedience up to gold level,

Good as this is this is pet level training for a good companion, not the mark of a successful competition dog from which other people keen to compete and do well would be looking for a puppy.

Anyone can decide to train any dog and may well do well with them if they are a talented trainer and handler, but sooner or later as people get higher in competition, they wish to have a purpose bred dog from particular dogs or liens they admire for the quality of their work or show success, as there is higher likelihood of getting something top class from top class parents in the given field.

Of course you are to be highly commended for looking into what makes for responsible breeding and researching your breed.:)

After you have been doing this for a year or two, you may well come to realise that lovely as she is your bitch is not likely to make a brood of potential top class working progeny, but through taking part and getting involved you may well see dogs and bitches you come to admire who are producing the 'goods' and go on a waiting list for such a top quality pup.

On the other hand you may find after you have gone through the Good citizen levels that both your girl and you have what it takes to do well in training/competition, and breeding may be appropriate, especially if both her parents are also top winning competition dogs.

I would not rush to get the tests done (apart from hips if you embark on Agility), until you have proved the bitches ability in competition, and have other competitors and judges admiring her work and showing an interest in any pups she might have in future (though such casual interest cannot be relied on to actually home a litter).  If that should happen getting the rest of the tests done when she is 3 years old would be soon enough.

   > due to an accidental mating I have a dog on the working register... both parents are on the 'breed' register

Then unless the sire was the dams Father, Son or full brother, then the litter could have been registered, (unless of course the bitch had already had too many litters or was over or underage).
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you are stating the obvious, but as I said an accidental mating

of course there is far less 'worry' over unregistered border collies (working sheepdogs) than most other breeds (other of course than one's not recognised) so it isn't particularly an obstacle, particularly if the OP knows her bitch's pedigree... there are many WSDs (with and without pedigrees) who contribute mostly to activities (especially agility perhaps) and at least the OP is prepared to have the health tests done

The working sheepdog I used on my bitch (who is also w/s) has umpteen Obedience Champions, Working Trials Champions and Trialling Champions in his pedigree and he himself is qualified Championship C and was the Reserve World Cup Obedience Champion at Crufts last year. He is also one of the few stud dogs in Obedience to be health tested (not as much as I'd like - his owner had him hip scored but only did the DNA CEA test, not the TNS and CL ones too). My w/s is hip scored, current eye certificate, fully DNA tested and the litter were eye tested and hearing tested (all clear). I did ask my eye tester about gonioscopy but he felt it was too subjectively assessed to want to offer it as part of his services.

Hello FSGN. First of all well done for asking advice. You need to put a lot of thought and consideration into what you might be considering, that is the breeding.

OK, so I'm going to pick up on some points. If she is KC activity registered, then that means she is a Working Sheepdog - nowt wrong with that, but it means she's not registered anywhere as a true Border Collie.

Now there are many reasons this might happen, first of all let's go through the basics.

ISDS registered dogs, they are the real Border Collies. If they're ISDS registered then they can be Kennel Club registered. Show dogs, forget them (that really IS NOT being rude in anyway ... KC on recognised the Border Collie as a breed relatively recently, so those registered with the KC will continue to be eligible to be registered with them). There are a HUGE number of farmers who breed ISDS registered dogs but don't bother to register their progeny ... hence lack of ISDS paperwork - this can lead to Workhing Sheepdogs (WSDs).

In terms of obedience, there's obedience and there's obedience. What I consider as 'obedience' is competitive obedience ... the Bronze that you're talking about is what I consider as just bog standard pet dog training. All my dogs have reached their Gold standard in the Kennel Club Good Citizen Obedience ... but two have also worked in competitive obedience. There is a big difference. 

By competing in competitive obedience you are getting your dog 'out there' and showing what she's made of. There are a lot of obedience handlers working the top classes and Championship C, with WSDs, so it's not a no no for breeding, but unless you are competing at a high level or your have a very good 'working' line behind you then you may end up just producing yet more ... working sheepdogs - they're ten a penny, especially in the region I live in.

As far as health testing is concerned, you MUST have a clinical eye test. Was your girl tested as a puppy? Collie Eye Anomaly is the worst thing you could have ... this will be picked up by a litter screening eye test at around 6 weeks of age. Otherwise, you need to have her tested prior to considering breeding to ensure she doesn't suffer from CEA, and every time prior to breeding. Next is hip scoring. This to be done after 12 months of age ... you may not have a background of hip scoring, if coming from working lines then it's a case of 'you have to start somewhere'. Show lines will have further generations back, but then show lines are not necessarily ISDS lines (again, no offence to anyone, but ISDS registration is of the utmost importance to me). Gonioscopy - well, that's a very invasive test and very inconclusive, that's not one I'm worried about. TNS and NCL - knowing your lineage very well will tell you if you've got this in the lines, but to be safe then a DNA test should be carried out.

So, that's the registrations and health testing sorted. Now what about the bog standard basics of breeding ...

Are you willing to put your bitch at risk? If you are then fine, go ahead with breeding. What? You don't think you're putting your bitch at risk? Oh dear, think again. I have a bitch I bred nearly 2 years ago, she's KC and ISDS registered, she has all the health tests, she produced a healthy litter of 8 pups, 1 week after whelping she developed an infection that led to life saving surgery. Nothing I did wrong, nothing that could have been predicted, just sheer bloody bad luck. Surgery cost me over £1,000, but it was touch and go whether she would survive. Are you really willing to put your girl at risk?

There are sooooo many WSDs being produced and sadly sooooo many in rescue centres :-( Do you really need to breed from her? Are you able to determine the good from the bad homes? Are you willing to take a pup back, whether it be 4 months or 14 years? Circumstances can and do change, people become ill, all my pups will return to me. I'm not rich, that's a worry, but I was responsible for producing them, I'm responsible for them. Are you able to advise on training issues, or behavioural issues? What if your pups starts to 'work' sheep and that's not required, how will you deal with that? What if pup starts to 'chase' runners or even worse, cars? Do you have the knowledge or experience to be able to help with that? If not then you are not in a position to help your prospective pup owners, in which case you are not geared up to be a breeder (anyone who allows a litter of puppies to be born IS a breeder).

It's not just a case of mating your girl to any ol' boy. You really have to look at the temperament/character of your girl, but not only her, you need to look further back. You need to choose a sire that will complement her, so giving you the great temperament and health and character that is a must for breeding.

It's early days, you are doing absolutely the right thing in looking at this early. A lot of hard thinking, but it's not as easy as it might seem. I would try to put anyone off breeding. Not 'cause it's a case of 'it's ok for me but not for you' but because I had a lot of experience before breeding my first litter, I knew what I was up against, I knew the commitment and I was ready for it. I also have the most amazing 'established' breeder and mentor behind me and fully supporting me continuing her line. That is a huge plus.

I would just comment on a few things here... firstly if your bitch isn't DNA tested (or her parents) for CEA and hasn't had a puppy eye test then you will need to DNA test her - eye tests after about 8 weeks of age will not tell if she is suffering from CEA as the changes to the eye prevent it from being seen (in general).  Annual eye tests are actually carried out for a (amongst other things) a disease called Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) which in collies generally occurs beyond puppyhood... Additionally you may (should) have her eye tested for narrow angled glaucoma which is a one off eye examination, hardly an invasive test, it involves a close examination by the eye specialist and whilst there's little proof of the genetics of glaucoma, and indeed there's little evidence of it being beyond a few 'lines', for 'peace of mind' I would certainly advise having it done - all mine have been. CEA is certainly not the worst thing that your dog can suffer from!  It's a 'non progressive' disease which unless severe doesn't cause a lot of problems with sufferers but best avoided... having a DNA test to ascertain your bitch's status is the best way forward... you can have all three DNA tests available for collies now via Optigen and there are 'clinics' around the country which will offer discounts... check on Optigen's website (the lab is in USA).  The other DNA tests are for TNS and CL - check the lines for a likelihood of CL as British dogs aren't likely to be affected but imports from Australia and New Zealand will need checking.... as for TNS looking through your dog's pedigree will only be of help if the dogs have been DNA tested.... it's common in British dogs so worth the test...

I did ask my eye tester about gonioscopy but he felt it was too subjectively assessed to want to offer it as part of his services.

can I ask who your eye tester is please? thanks

I would just add if you haven't got your bitch DNA tested for TNS then I would certainly use a stud dog who's tested or hereditary clear - it's a fatal disease and is proving to be common in British collies......

Have answered you privately, Penny.

Also to add to the above comments, yes do be careful of adding more collies to the market as so many BYB churn them out without a care as to who they go to. Being quite cheap to buy makes them very accessible, and also dispensible I'm afraid, when people realise they have made a mistake. They are NOT your average pet breed. I have only had two litters in 30 years of owning this breed (two became Obedience Champions, one won Crufts Dog Obedience in 2007 and was probably the second most prolific winner of his generation) but you never stop worrying about your pups. And yes, there is a world of difference between the KC Good Cits and competitive Obedience. 

Just wanted to say after digesting that lot, WELCOME TO CHAMPDOGS :)

Thank-you so much to everybody who has taken the time to reply to my post and try to help me. I really do appreciate it :)
Please know- all this wonderful advice has not fallen on deaf ears, I have taken it all in and am compiling a notebook of all the things I need to know.

She hasnt had an eye test as a puppy, I dont think.

As I said previously, IF we do decided to breed from her we will certainly have all the health tests done for her and find a suitable stud who will also be tested, you can be sure of that.
Am I right in thinking then that the health tests start at 12 months of age, starting with the hips?
Im assuming they can all be done later on though, instead? Or am I missing something there?

No your sort of correct, most of the CLINICAL tests start at a year, but the DNA tests can be done any time.

Obviously it would be wisest to do the cheapest tests first, because if they are not good then you have saved yourself the expense of the rest.

So I would say do the Clinical eye test first, if that is fine then the hips, as if the results are bad then you wouldn't proceed even if the rest of the DNA tests are fine.

Thats really helpful, thank-you.
So 1st- Clinical eye test at about 12 months.
2nd- Hip scores.

What after that? :)

Thank-you, this all helps alot.

I posted a link in my first reply which tests applied to the breed.  Off the top of my head DNA tests for prcd-PRA, TNS, CEA, and CL.

Have you looked on her Registration certificate to see what her parents DNA test results (if any) are.  If both parents tested clear it will say under her name under the DNA test heading 'hereditary clear'.  If so then she won't need to be tested (assuming her parentage/pedigree is correct).

I've already replied to this ... 12 months - eye test (and thereafter annually) and eye test (gonioscopy) - one off, hip score and at any age DNA test for CEA and TNS (CL if there's an indication - normally dogs from australia in the pedigree) would be the minimum tests to undertake... otherwise, temperament, checking against the epilepsy database and checking relatives hip scores...you don't need to have the tests done at 12 months, probably the first thing as your dog hasn't had a puppy eye test (and if you don't know the CEA status of parents) is to have a CEA DNA test (and for TNS at the same time) then physical eye tests as soon as you wish after 12 months and likewise with hip scores, there's a school of thought which recommends mid way between seasons for bitches

Thanks very much :)

I did ask my eye tester about gonioscopy but he felt it was too subjectively assessed to want to offer it as part of his services.

I would agree on the basis of what my eye tester tells me. No, I wont divulge who they are but they do not come any better. Discussion further I wont do :-)

No, I wont divulge who they are but they do not come any better. Discussion further I wont do

Why not?

Wonder if we are talking about the same eye tester, Trialist lol. I really trust this one and he said that what one vet failed, another vet might pass. The gonioscopy test as it stands is too subjective to be worth doing so he doesn't offer it. I'm not very technical but he's a lovely knowledgeable man so took his advice. I have pmd Penny with his name so it's not a secret but I'd hate there to be a witch-hunt because of one man's opinion. 

just out of interest... I do discuss with the panellists I use and the last time it was interesting as I asked what the latest was and the panellist felt that really it was quite a narrow 'problem' in collies although we're still being asked to have our dogs tested... I know that the panel have had a lot of discussions over how it is done, what anaesthetics etc... and I believe that they are now more consistent and they do discuss cases etc... at least it's not thought to be a major issue in collies but there have been some problems, so worth doing.  All three panellists I've used I believe do gonioscopy although I've not asked one of them :-)

Dunno if same tester. But I wont be doing it. Too subjective between testers, and too subjective between times when it's carried out. A test on one dog one year may give completely different test results on the same dog, with the same tester the following year.

Let's face it, eye testers, like the rest of us, are out to make a living ;-)