Hi I would really like some opinions as I am a little confused as to what to do. My girl med breed had 2 pups by c section early Nov last year, her 1st litter. The section was performed as she was only carrying 2 pups that were double the weight of an average pup of the breed. She went into labour etc just couldn't push them out due to the size. She was the perfect Mum to them despite the section and was in pre whelping shape by the time the pups left. She cycles every 9 months which would make her due in season soon. I took her to our Vet for weighing worming etc and we discussed breeding, she advised due to the litter being very small, the fact that she is now 4 and has not 'given birth' naturally and her great physical shape since the section that breeding on this season would be a good idea. I was horrified at this as I thought I should wait at least a year but she gave me reasons why waiting may not be best in this case i.e scarring build up her age re 1st 'natural' litter etc. I know every case is different and breeding back to back is generally frowned upon in fact if she did indeed have a litter this time I wouldn't be able to advertise it on Champdogs which makes me feel that I am doing something wrong. If I wait until the season after this one she will be 5 having her first natural litter which to be honest I find more disturbing. I am leaning toward breeding her when she does come in but am here for opinions please
Just to add I know many of you do not put much stock in your Vets opinions but for various reasons I do have faith in her and she knows my girl well.

I would wait until the season after. 

She has after all had a litter, been pregnant and reared them, so heer being a bit over 5 by then is no big deal certainly for a medium size breed.

I have a medium size breed and the general opinion is that a first litter should be whelped by five.

As for your vet is she a breeder herself.

Thanks for the reply, and yes my Vet has been a breeder i think all her girls are retired now though. I had always believed the age to be 4 will have to do some more research on that one, if I am honest her age at her next litter is one of my biggest concerns.

My oldest first time was my Jozi at 3 years 10 months, then had her second litter at 5 1/2 and third and last at 7 years 1 month.  5, 7, and 7 puppies.

As i understand it their pelvis becomes less flexible as they get older therefore causing problems with whelping (i believe having had a litter naturally allays this ?), she has technically had a litter but she hasn't given birth naturally therefore her next litter would be her 1st in terms of the pelvic bones flexibility, I hope I am making some sense, if I wait then she will be over 5 having her '1st' litter as such or have I got myself muddled, I just assumed breeding her on her next season was a complete no go now after having spoken to the Vet and had a read online I am a bit thrown as to what to do for the best really.

It's the pregnancy hormones (relaxin) and thsoe released during whelping that have the effect on teh pelvis, and she will have had the benefit of those.

Thats good then I thought it was the action of the pup going through the birth canal I am sure I said as much to the vet will have totpick her up on that one ! Thanks

Two of my bitches over the years have had a litter closer to 7 but not their first natural litter. In both cases they fared OK but in each case it was a much smaller litter than their earlier litter. I thought there had to be a year in between to register the puppies with the Kennel Club unless you apply for a special exception. I could be wrong just thought that was the case.

I too would wait, I'd be worried about a ruptured uterus especially if the litter ended up being larger than the first time around, I wouldn't back to back breed regardless of the reason.

Hazenaide Bizarrely you can register 2 litters a year unless you are a licensed breeder and I am not sure about Assured breeders? I would never normally consider it thats why I was taken aback when she suggested it would be better than to leave it ??? and the reasons she gave, has anyone been in a similar position and then had a litter with or without complications , the scarring build up is worrying me too or is that just nonsense too. All this is probably academic anyway as knowing my Girl she will keep me waiting till she comes into season next.

>I thought there had to be a year in between to register

Not so!

My best bitch produced 2 beautiful pups in her first litter.  So good that I kept them both.  She was not mated on her next season, but did not go 6 months either.  As she had such a lovely easy whelping, I wanted a second litter from her. 

Her next season was early as well.  She was mated to a different stud dog this time, and whelped early.  (It's a breed that often only goes 56 days.)  I have a breed that I like spayed at 4 years old, so I accept it is breed dependent.  She had 2 beautiful pups again.

The first litter was KC registered and was born in January 2007.  The second litter was KC registered and born at the end of December 2007.  Bitches seasons rule what decisions we make.  I would have been affronted if the Kennel Club had not accepted registration.

>the scarring build up is worrying me too or is that just nonsense too

Definitely not nonsense.  I had a Yorkshire Terrier bitch spayed.  She had previously had a section.  The vet said that were a lot of adhesions.  I think they have to cut them away?  It's an operation that I haven't watched, so I bow to anyone with better knowledge.  But it is not hocus pocus, it is a regular thing that happens to bitches.

Does the scarring occur after all births or just after a c section? Also, does the scarring speed and amount vary from bitch to bitch? Interesting discussion.

I believe all bitches should have a seasons break between litters - especially if they needed a 'c' section. 

My girl had a litter last Sept - just finished another season and beginning to look fit, healthy and in good coat again.  If I had mated her this time, she would just not look any sense and even though she is not 3 until later this month - feel she deserves the break and have some fun.

Definately not this season if at all.
Personally I have a big problem with folks still breeding from any dog that has had a C section.  I know the KC allow 2 before you cant register anymore but I have bred several species of animals mainly for showing and I have 1 rule, they breed naturally or not at all.  You have no guarantee you wont get the same issue again are you really prepared to go through the cost and recovery of another c section.

Have to say I'm inclined to agree with you Malibu. Esme had a c-section with her first litter (produced 7 pups naturally but had to have a section to remove a large dead pup). I did decide to let her have another litter but she just didn't get going properly. She was contracting but half-heartidly and after a few hours I made the trip to the vet for another c-section. I was told she had a lot of scarring and adhesions which probably contributed to the problems encountered as well as a pup that had died about a week previously.

My rule from now on will be only one litter if the bitch has had a c-section.

Thanks for all your replies much appreciated. Just one thing when o referred to the scarring thing being nonsense I didnt mean that there being scarring was nonsense I was referring to the fact that my vet told me that the longer you left it between births after a section then there is more scarring build up. Is that true ?

> there is more scarring build up. Is that true ?

I wouldn't not have thought so, as scars usually improve.

Advice for humans "The longer your scar has to heal, the better" http://www.babycentre.co.uk/x543066/how-soon-after-a-caesarean-can-i-get-pregnant

These other searches concur https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=timing+of+pregnancy+after+a+C+section&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7IRFE_enGB445&redir_esc=&ei=PEdhUfO-KMvMPeeagagF

I'm not sure if scarring/adhesions build up but I think the main risk is from uterine rupture. That can be very difficult to diagnose quickly in a bitch. As with us humans, all pregnancies after a C-section should not be classed as low risk. Subsequent pregnancies are statistically more likely to need another C-section due to uterine damage, inertia or an anatomical problem that was masked by the first section. (Not an expert - just have a daughter who is a midwife!)

Have to agree with Malibu.  I have spent absolutely years working on a self whelping line.  If a bitch doesn't whelp naturally then she is spayed automatically.  I go even further.  I won't keep a bitch out of a bitch that has inertia.  I just think a lot of these problems are genetic.

I fully understand malpresentations are just bad luck, and nobody can foresee those situations.  But I made my rule of 'only 1 section' long before the KC made their ruling.

Due to the increased risks you need to ask yourself how important is it that she has another litter. 

Did you not get what you needed to carry on her bloodlines with the first litter. 

If yes then I would personally not breed from her again.

Lots to think about thank you all for your opinions and for taking time  to reply

If the uterus has been 'opened', their will be scarring.  No doubt at all.  It is necessary for healing.
I would be worried about rupture at this early stage in the healing and would wait till next season at the very earliest.

I did this.  I got my bitch into absolute peak physical condition and bred her again after a section(2 seasons later).  She managed fine with the next litter and whelped naturally.  I took a chance and it turned out fine for us but....had she needed another section, we had decided to spay her at the same time and not lift the no breeding endorsements ever from any pups.  Turned out, we didn't need to but we had thought it through properly.

One of my girls had 2 litters, her first she whelped 6 naturally then the last 3 by c-section (due to poor position of pup), her second was a c-section because first pup had died and was decomposing, lots of green discharge before first pup.  We did keep a pup from her second litter, who whelped naturally a litter of 11.

I would not breed from her again - (a) because of the potential risk to her and (b) because you are promoting a non self-whelping line then

I think it depends also on the reason for section, with things like poor presentation it can not be helped I'd try again, the mother of my bitch her first was section for mal presented pup then whelped 3 litter naturally.
I had my first child c section then second naturally, however I will say even now 18 years on I have problems with the scarring and getting infections in it.

After first mating of my bitch the ultrasound showed only one pup. She went over her due date and several vets looked at her and all agreed the pup was big. They checked to see if she was showing signs of hormone change and therefore getting ready to give birth and she wasn't. With all this information it was agreed to do an elective caesarean. Long story but the pup did not survive past 3 days.

I was advised to mate her again next season, I was originally horrified at this suggestion, but then spoke with lots of experienced breeders in various breeds and they all said the same thing. The vet who did the caesarean said she was fine inside but also mentioned scarring from where the internal wound had been. It was explained to me that over time the scarring becomes raised and less smooth and having a litter actually helps smooth over these scars (I think I've got that right).

Taking in to account all the information we did mate her again, she had a litter of 7, all within 2 1/4 hours and gave birth very easily and naturally.

This scenario is slightly different as she didn't actually go through bringing up the caesarean litter and this can take a lot out of the bitch.

One of my girls had 2 c sections we kept 2 of her daughters and they whelped easy & there daughters also welped easy.

>This scenario is slightly different as she didn't actually go through bringing up the caesarean litter and this can take a lot out of the bitch.

Correct!  My vet says that it is not the actual carrying of a litter, but the rearing that takes it out of a bitch.

I could see that might be the case. My bitches tend to behave relatively normally throughout but start lookinbg a bit weary after a few weeks.

Well it is now 3 months since my bitch had her litter, and she is in good bodyweight, lovely muscle (flat belly) but won't be fit to show for at least another two months, as she is nearly bald.

I think a lot of breeds have the moth eaten look.  I've had mine look like feral dogs!  By the time they are approaching their next season, they are starting to bulk back up.

Barbara, do you find that your bitches coats look really great once they get pregnant?  Before they show I mean.  Mine seem to bloom, prior to looking pregnant.

Yes they look great right up to whelping, so really nice up to about 5 1/2 weeks.