I have my two year old standard poodle booked in to be spayed next Tuesday.  I know she is now fully mature and our last one needed an emergency spay for pyometra so this will put my mind at ease with this bitch.  I am however having second thoughts! :(  I know the health benefits and having had the pyo previously it still scares me and I have been very vigilant after all her seasons.  She is midway between seasons so if I don't do it now it would be September time before she could be done.

Wee things are niggling me at the minute, she has taken to barking at people, we can't walk down a street that she doesn't bark at every single person, this is a relatively new thing for last few months really.  The taking off after dogs as I've mentioned previously which we have been extra careful with since my last post and she hasn't had the opportunity since but I know she would do it at the drop of a hat!   I am back to using a halti again as she is pulling and lunging at dogs and people.

Do you know if I am allowed to use the halti at dog training classes, we're starting the KC good citizen bronze later this month will I be able to use it there?  Sorry for all the questions.  Just don't know if doing the spay is the right thing to do now, needing reassurance I suppose.  Does it change their personalities, calm them down or make them nervous?

Thank you :)

> Does it change their personalities, calm them down or make them nervous?

Can't honestly say that it's a personality changer,  it can be a serious coat changer in some breeds, wouldn't do it again myself. Pro's and con's both ways, but now on hind sight I'd rather keep a bitch entire.

While I can understand you worrying about pyo, I do feel that it is in the dogs interest to delay the procedure for another couple of years.

Research shows that bitches spayed too young, don't have the longevity of bitches spayed later in life.  I would hang on to those ovaries for a while longer if it was my bitch.

Do you know if I am allowed to use the halti at dog training classes, we're starting the KC good citizen bronze later this month will I be able to use it there?

Certainly most classes will allow the use of headcollars but you would not be allowed to take any of the GC tests using one.

I have had three Golden Retriever bitches. The first one was spayed after her first season as that was the vets advise at that time. She lived until ten years, was a gentle sweet natured dog and did not show signs of any joint or arthritis problems. The other two bitches were spayed before the first season, vet advise had changed. They both lived to good ages, fourteen and fourteen and a half. One tore a crusciate at eight, the other had arthritis along her spine and suffered quite badly. Both were nervous, but no sign of early death due to early spay in those two cases.
I have been reading a lot about when to spay and have decided that I will definitely spay after the first season. The breeder I'm buying a Golden puppy from in the summer has suggested after eighteen months when she has finished growing.
Evidence appears to be showing that early spaying increases the incidence of arthritis, crusciate damage and temperament problems and I have decided that the risk of that now outweighs the risk of mammary tumours and pyo.

Spaying is unlikely to change the behavioural issues you mention, hopefully your new training class can help with that. 2 years isn't particularly young for a spay, but if the seasons aren't bothering you there's no harm in waiting another year or two. Coat change is a possibility, it makes a big difference with spaniels but I'm not sure what it would do to poodle coats, other poodle owners may be able to advise.

If you are having second thoughts, postpone the op.  Give yourself time to think things through and be happy with your decision.  Once done, it can't be undone. 

I personally do not spay my bitches - my choice and to date we have had no problems but I would not hesitate to if I thought it necessary for any reason.

Have you had the chance to read Angela Boyd's excellent article on: The Pros and Cons of Neutering

Do you know, I'd never heard about the link between spaying/neutering and cruciate ligament problems although now, it makes total sense!  Out of all my large breeds that were spayed/neutered, only 1 bitch survived to old age with her cruciate intact.
I don't routinely spay/neuter and I never will now.  I see no need to put my dog through such a major op for no reason.  Everything that you spayor neuter for is treatable.  We have had testicular cancer so that dog got his bits off and lived to 11 yrs old(died of CDRM complications).  I have a bitch that had Pyo and a spay sorted that.  And a bitch that had mammory cancer so got spayed with a full mammory strip and survived.  I would rather treat if anything SHOULD arise than operate for no reason.

I have a bitch that had Pyo and a spay sorted that.

Not all bitches survives a pyo, it can be fatal. and apart from that, say the bitch develops pyometra aged 13, the risks are then far higher of problems during surgery/GA than if she was spayed when younger. What if she has developed a heart problem, for instance? Plus the op is far more demanding and the bitch will take longer to recover.

I am however having second thoughts!   I know the health benefits and having had the pyo previously it still scares me

Can you tell us where you obtained your information on health benefits?  Because, there are risks as well as benefits and it's a balancing, numbers act to figure out which direction to take that will be best for YOU and YOUR DOG in YOUR situation.

The link provided to you above is a summary of Laura Sanborn's paper, the first in the list below and the first ever I saw of the risks  and I first learned of it here.  :)  I have since accummualted a veritable library of research articles on the risks and benefits of spay/neuter.  Spaying will not change your girl's behaviour on leash, that is not a sexually dimorphic behaviour.  But there is surprising information on some behaviour differences in intact and neutered dogs and that article is in the list.  I'll see if I can highlight that one in red or somehow make it stand out for you, it's fascinating.  OK, it's the Duffy and Serpell one and I bolded the title.  In my own format all the titles are bold but that's not coming across here.  You will find several articles/papers on pyro., longevity and ovaries as well.

This is a reading list of articles and papers by Veterinarians, breed clubs, trainers and others on the pros and cons of neutering or spaying your dog that I have found helpful and very educational. Most are based on extensive Veterinary research and also provide references you can check further. If you are wrestling with the question of when or whether to neuter/spay these may help. They do not all agree and one is even a rebuttal of another. One is a link to a radio show interview. One is a link to a medical testosterone suppressant not yet available in N. America but is in the U.K. and Australia. Some are not easy reading.

I think I personally found the first two in the list to be of most help and I appreciated the non-biased way the information was presented. The list is in no particular order, articles were simply added as I discovered them. If the links are not clickable I have tried to include the name of the paper and author in case you have to search for them. I hope this helps folks out and good luck with your decision. A tip, I went to my Vet to discuss the first two articles with her.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
Laura J. Sanborn, M.S.
May 14, 2007

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665
Determining the optimal age for gonadectomy of dogs and cats,
Margaret V. Root Kustritz, dvm, phd, dact

http://www.savethedals.org/earlyneuter.htm
Veterinary "Review" Article on Neutering, with Implications for Dalmatian Stone-Formers    Abstracted by Carroll H. Weiss
Study Group on Urinary Stones
Research Committee
Dalmatian Club of America

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/neutr.html
NEUTERING MALE AND FEMALE DOGS
Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.
©2003 for BREEDERVET

http://www.littleriverlabs.com/neuter.htm
The Question Of Neutering and at what age
(Put together by Gregg Tonkin, Little River Labradors from postings by Pam Davol PHD and Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP)

http://leerburg.com/pdf/neutering.pdf
Should You Neuter Your Dog?
Ed Frawley, Leerburg Kennels   * words are l e e r b u r g.com and L e e r b u r g Kennels

http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/files/WillWeChangeOnEarlySpay-Neuter_Villalobos.pdf
The Bond and Beyond for VPN December 2008
by Alice Villalobos
Will We Change on Early Spay-Neuter?

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/castrationindogs.html
ISSUES REGARDING CASTRATION IN DOGS
Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.
©2003 for BREEDERVET

http://www.petresource.com/Articles%20of%20Interest/new_views_on_neutering.htm
New Views On Neutering
By Ruth Marrion, DVM

http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/Session%20I.pdf
Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering
Proceedings of the Third International Symposium on Non-Surgical
Contraceptive Methods for Pet Population Control * www.acc-d.org
SESSION OVERVIEW - Dr. John Verstegen

http://www.peptech.com/HTML/Animal_Health/Superlorin_general.html
A non-surgical method to suppress testosterone

http://prdupl02.ynet.co.il/ForumFiles_2/23999370.pdf
Pros and Cons of Neutering
E. Hardie
Department of Clinical Sciences, North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC, USA.

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/rspca.shtml
RSPCA Admit to Spaying and Castrating Puppies AT SIX WEEKS OLD
Stan Rawlinson MTCBPT.MPAACT
Doglistener Behaviourist and Obedience Trainer

http://users.lavalink.com.au/theos/Spay-neuter.htm#vacc
Should I spay or should I no..?  -- pros and cons of Spay-neuter
Hungarian Vizsla Health Resource

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/spaying_neutering.shtml
Spaying and Castration (Neutering) Dogs and Cats A Stark Warning
Stan Rawlinson, a full time Dog Behaviourist and Obedience Trainer.

http://www.wholedognews.com/
Spay, Neuter, and Cancer: Revisiting and Old Trinity
Myrna Milani, BS, DVM

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete One Veterinarian's Opinion
© 2005 Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal%20.pdf
Rebuttal to "Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete"
Lisa M Howe, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACVS Associate Professor, Small Animal Surgery Co-Chief
Surgical Sciences Sect Dept of Vet Small Animal Clinical Sci
College of Vet Med and Biom Sciences Texas A&M Univ College Station TX 77843

http://www.pluggd.tv/audio/channels/dog_talk_the_radio_show/episodes/4njnh
Dog Talk Show #96 Tracie Hotchner (10-18-2008)
Early spay/neuter may be harming our dogs! Hear Dr. Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, DAVCP on the physical benefits of delaying neutering and trainer Parvene Farhoody on how it can reduce aggression.

http://www.antrozoologisenteret.no/artikler/art_breed.pdf
Effects of breed, sex, and neuter status on trainability in dogs
James A. Serpell* and Yuying Hsu+

http://users.skynet.be/fa242124/a-english/castration-dogs.html
Gonadectomy and behavior
Dr Joël Dehasse

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/faculty/Gosling/reprints/AABS05DogPersonalityReview.pdf
Temperament and personality in dogs (Canis familiaris): A review and evaluation of past research
Amanda C. Jones *, Samuel D. Gosling

http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=1_23_Benefits-Risks-of-Neutering
Evaluating the Benefits and Risks of Neutering
The SkeptVet -  the owner of this blog is not identified but the articles referenced are searchable.

http://www.petfinder.com/for-shelters/pediatric-spay-neuter.html
Pediatric Spay/Neuter
Dr. Lila Miller, ASPCA

http://k9harmony.co.uk/spaying-and-castration/
Spaying and Castration - What Your Vet and the Rescue Centres May Not Tell You
Pauline Waller, member #178 Professional Association of Applied Canine Trainers, - articles referenced and searchable

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1123732;hl=castrate#pid1123732
To Castrate or Not? - Interesting discussion regarding a young male targeted by an aggressive older male.

http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files/Early%20SN%20and%20Behavior.pdf
Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Behavior in Dogs
Deborah L. Duffy, Ph.D., and James A. Serpell, Ph.D., Center for the Interaction of
Animals and Society, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania

http://www.2ndchance.info/spayneuter.htm
At What Age Should I Spay or Neuter My Dog or Cat?
What Are The Advantages And Disadvantages Of Neutering My Pet?
Revisiting The Idea Of Early-Age Neutering
Ron Hines DVM PhD  10/05/09

http://saveourdogs.net/category/health/
Articles and links to Veterinary organizations opposing mandatory spay/neuter

http://askdryin.com/blog/tag/dog-behavior-arousal-aggression-spay-neuter/
Can Spaying Make Dog Behaviour Worse?
Sophia Yin, DVM, MS        March 5, 2009

http://www.associationofanimalbehaviorprofessionals.com/effects_of_neutering.html
The Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Canine Behaviour
James O'Heare, Based on section from Aggressive Behavior in Dogs, 2006,

http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chatforum/showthread.php?t=23096
The Behavioural Effects of Canine Castration
Hazel Palmer, 1993  See post #8 in the chat forum at Pet Friendly World.

http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files/Early%20SN%20and%20Behavior.pdf
Does Spaying and Neutering Reduce Aggression?
Dr. Polley DVM, 2001   American Dog Breeders Association

http://www.gpmcf.org/respectovaries.html
A Healthier Respect for Ovaries (in dogs)
David J. Waters, DVM, PhD, Diplomate ACVS
Director, Center for Exceptional Longevity Studies
Gerald P. Murphy Cancer Foundation

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2009b/091201OvarianResearch.html
Message for women and dogs: keeping ovaries is linked to longevity
To the Purdue Research Park, http://www.purdueresearchpark.com

http://www.rockllewellinsetters.com/OvaryExposureLongevityStudyfromAgingCellJournalbyDavidJWatersetalDec2009.pdf
Exploring mechanisms of sex differences in longevity:  lifetime ovary exposure and exceptional longevity in dogs
David J. Waters,1,2 Seema S. Kengeri,1 Beth Clever,1 Julie A. Booth,1 Aimee H. Maras,1 Deborah L.
Schlittler1 and Michael G. Hayek3
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/may09/090515j.asp
AVMA: Mandatory spay/neuter a bad idea
Javma News, May 15, 2009

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/male-dog-neutering.html
Veterinary Advice Online:  Male Dog Neutering

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/dog-spaying.html
Veterinary advice Online:  Dog Spaying (Spaying a Female Dog)
Dr. Shauna O'Meara  Pet Informed:  http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/index.html

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/applan/article/S0168-1591(08)00114-7/abstract
Breed differences in canine aggression 1, Dec. 2008
Deborah L. Duffy, Yuying Hsub, James A. Serpella

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full
Endogenous Gonadal Hormone Exposure and Bone Sarcoma Risk
Dawn M. Cooley, Benjamin C. Beranek, Deborah L. Schlittler, Nita W. Glickman, Lawrence T. Glickman, and David J. Waters

http://www.stbernardhealth.co.uk/pyometrainthebitch.htm
Pyometra in the Bitch
Jenny King

http://www.akcchf.org/news-events/multimedia/podcasts/early-spay-and-neuter.html
Early Spay and Neuter 
Podcast with Dr. Benjamin Hart

http://www.akcchf.org/canine-health/your-dogs-health/bone-cancer-in-dogs.html
Bone Cancer in Dogs
Dr. Jaime Modiano

http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10498
Golden Retriever Study Suggests Neutering Affects Dog Health
UC Davis, News and Information.  Media Contacts:  Benjamin Hart, School of Veterinary Medicine,  (530) 752-1555, blhart@ucdavis.edu;  Pat Bailey, UC Davis News Service,  (530) 752-9843, pjbailey@ucdavis.edu

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055937
Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers
Gretel Torres de la Riva, Benjamin L. Hart ,XThomas B. Farver, Anita M. Oberbauer, Locksley L. McV. Messam, Neil Willits, Lynette A. Hart

I have two st poos....they were respectively spayed at
age 6(phantom pregnancies)...she developed urinary incontinence at 9  and is now on incur in.
And.  Age 8 spayed due to poly cystic ovaries...post season discharge...seasons lasting 4 weeks ... She had no after effects and was definitely better for being spayed.
Our  breed  can take a while to mature...some don't settle before 3 years so I personally wouldn't spay before that age if you can manage the seasons safely.
In the meantime train every day...even on a walk ,train for the dog you want. My eldest girl had high prey drive..she used to leap up towards motor bikes and cyclists....I trained at a city crossroads for over a week to break the habit...it was hard work but they are so bright she never forgot her lessons. A huge reward for her was the park on the other side of the crossroads which we only went to once she had a steady sit when the bikes flew by.
My old girl passed in January,and we now have a male.I don't intend to neuter him after reading all the new info,but for a female I would spay around 5 due to the increasing risk of pyometriosis and the added risk of anesthesia  for an older dog.

Thank you for all the replies and jetstone Jewel I am going to sit and read through all of this now.  I will come back when I have more read but I am now having further doubts.

Going to read :)

I agree Bellamia they are slow to settle down and this is one of the niggles I have, maybe she isn't fully mature mentally.  Our last girl was 8 when she took pyo and spayed at 10 she took cushings and I always wondered was there a connection.  The health benefits I mentioned were with regards to mammary tumours but I know there is such much I need to consider.  We can manage the seasons just fine, no males at home here and she is very light bleeder.

Off to do more reading.

This is a decision that we are currently wrestling with at the moment.  Our girl (small breed) is 3, will be 4 in September and we always said we would not have her spayed just for the sake of it.  Her seasons have always been manageable, especially seeing as she is our only dog.  She has always seemed to sail through them, no change of mood, no problems with phantoms etc.

However this last season has begun to cause her some discomfort, in the fact that she gets a lot of irritation.  For 2/3 months leading up to it she would lick herself intently.  We were used to this from previous seasons and it didn't cause any problems, however for the first time she suffered a phantom (not too bad, but producing milk) and still really licking herself lots but really intently and to the point where she will start to kick her legs out and send her little back into spasm (not something you wish to happen in her breed as they are very prone to back problems).  From when she finished her season at the end of October, we had about a two month respite and then this has started from the beginning of the year.  It has got better since her phantom pregnancy has ended, but still causes her some issues.  The vet says this is because her hormones are playing up and will get worse each time.  She's never had a litter and I don't intend to breed from her either.  I really don't want her to get worse each time her season comes around and to suffer such discomfort for so many months out of the year, and so we have to decide whether what the vet says is really true and she does need to be spayed or whether it's not as bad as they say (they have been on at us to have her spayed since she was 6 months old).  She will be just turned 4 if we do decide to have her spayed after her next season and half inbetween the next.

If anyone has any advice at all on this, I'd be really grateful to hear it....

Dachlady

I have a toy breed, and some do have awful phantoms.  My breed usually gets mated on the second season, so, as far as I am concerned, their breeding days should be over by 4 years old.  It would be just exploiting them to continue with further litters.  Not all my girls have been bred from, but I still leave them to 4 years old before spaying.  Made the decision years ago, and it works for me.  It means I am not worried that an elderly bitch will be rushed in for emergency surgery due to pyo.

Jean

> It means I am not worried that an elderly bitch will be rushed in for emergency surgery due to pyo.
>
>

Ditto, but mine would be 5 - 7 years old, as some have not had a first litter until almost 4.

Thanks for the advice Jean and Barbara, she will be 4 when the time is right inbetween seasons.  One thing the vet said to me that did hit a chord was similar to what you have said..... that its better to spay a healthy younger dog than an ill, older dog for their own sakes.  This coupled with the fact that her seasons are aggravating her is making me think that its probably the best thing to do.

My opinion, taking into account the research currently available, is to spay around the age of 6 years.  This gives the bitch plenty ovary exposure to ensure longevity, but makes it unlikely that pyo will occur.

OP, I'm sorry to hear your previous bitch got pyo at quite a young age, but do be assured that this is very very rare.  Research has been carried out using dogs in Sweden (where neutering is not carried out routinely and many dogs are left entire unless a problem occurs), and this found that 75% of dogs reach the age of 10 years old without pyo.  Spaying earlier than 10 years (ie 6 yrs!) would obviously improve the odds yet further.  So the risk of pyo - whilst not zero - is definitely not excessive up to the age of 6 years-ish.  (Pyo is also less likely in bitches which have been bred from, so those who have used a bitch for breeding purposes could feasibly leave it even later than 6 years.)

Here is the research into pyo:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11817057  You'll also see that some breeds are more at risk of pyo than others, according to that study, so it might be worth being extra observant for the owners of those breeds.

Furthermore, quick action and recognising symptoms when pyo occurs will almost always see the dog survive, even if it does happen.  So consider yourself an educated dog owner who will recognise the symptoms, and so your dog is even less at risk than that of Joe Bloggs.

Thank you everyone, I have had a good long read at all the information.  I have cancelled the operation as every day i was having so many doubts.  Seasons are not a problem and as since our last bitch had pyo at 8 years that I'm being vigilant with seasons I will continue the status quo.  I appreciate all your responses and I suppose because I was having doubts it has made my decision so much easier as you say I cannot go back!  We will continue with training, in fact intensify it and do more as I image we were becoming complacent.  Thank you again :)

At least you have had the opportunity to delve further into the spaying debate.  It's what I like about CD, being able to swap experiences and knowledge. 

I am sure that, as you have a large breed, you have made the right decision.  She can wait a bit longer. :-)