http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/mar/26/girl-dead-wigan-aggressive-dogs

is it time for some stricter legislation ? when will people learn that you should not leave dogs alone with children.

R.I.P. Jade

So I hear via the grapevine this woman bred these dogs and sold puppies over Facebook for £200 and boasted of their aggressive nature?! Disgusting and maybe, just maybe, the Goverment will take stricter control on how dogs are bred and sold.

Doesn't help that poor girl R.I.P

So sad. :-( I wonder why they destroyed 4 dogs and captured the 5th?

Just listened to lbc phone in a bout dangerous dogs. OMG some very misunderstood dogs and comments by both the presenter ( although he does this deliberately ) He was trying to pursuade people that any bull breed should be got rid of among other things.

So very sad for the poor girl and her family R.I.P Jade.

However, debating about dangerous dogs already when the facts are not even out, for all we know the poor girl could have had a fit or heart attack,it just says she was seen unconscious, the dogs could have just got all riled up, and some breeds will bite when something upsets them, or someone may have hurt her and then left her there we don't know, it is strange that she was there alone when she did not live there.

Lots of questions to be answered yet before the radio stations and public begin calling for a ban on 'dangerous' dogs.

The police report on tv I saw was injuries consistent with a dogattack :(

If what Lucky Girl has posted is proven, then isn't it about time that dog breeding in particular BYB is clamped  down on. The good breeders would have nothing to fear and everything to gain.
Having been keeping an eye out at the FB pages and free adds for a dog that has been stolen I am just appalled that I could buy any type of breed or powerful fighting dog no questions asked as long as I have the cash.
Some sellers even offer to deliver, I can buy a dog from the comfort of my armchair !!! No need to go through all the puppy visits and questions some breeders ask, just pay the driver !!

Also the breeds being identified.  Often these so called Bullmastiffs and Staffords are nothing of the sort but multiway crossbreeds bred deliberately for the worst traits.

Another annoying thing is they use stock photos of the breeds in the news items, not photos of the actual animals, this should not be allowed it is misrepresentation.

Those of us with less common breeds know how badly they can be misidentified.  My own is often thought to be a number of other breeds or a GSD cross with one of the better known Spitz.

Someone I know lost a Border collie, which spent ages at the dogs home, even with the owner checking by phone frequently as it wasn't identified as a Border collie, as it was Blue Merle and the staff member identifying thought they only come in Black and White.

Well said Brainless.

They interviewed a guy on the BBC tonight who lives in the area. He has (in his words) a 'dangerous dog', Akita cross something else. He admitted that the dog was nasty, so he didn't take any chances with it, it was shut outside during the day and only allowed in the house during the evening when he could supervise. This is not a pet, it is a ticking time bomb, far too many dogs are kept in this way for the wrong reason. It's about time there was some legislation to stop people breeding these dogs. My heart goes out to the family and friends of this poor girl.

Some good points there Brainless and Carrington.  However many people will think like my husband straight away that Staffords should be banned.  I spent a good part of tea time arguing with him.  They are dangerous dogs he said and no-one should keep them.  Only a small number of dog loving people like myself would say anything different!   His evidence is also that our dog was attacked - one by a Rottie, secondly by a Staffie in the last few years when he has been out walking her.  She has also been attacked by a Boxer years ago too!  Where do you stop!  Oh dear!

Livng on a estate I will not walk my dogs amd drive out further a field, 3 staffies have gonefor me or my dogs and its all with the intent to do damage. It z however the idiots that make them ths way as they want them to be macho :( shame that these peopld are allowed dogs.

It z however the idiots that make them ths way as they want them to be macho

I'm sorry but I don't agree, I know there are a lot of nice staffies around but there is also a large percentage which are very dog aggressive despite having a good socialisation with other dogs and owners who are responsible.  Just like collies want to herd, some staffies want to fight and personally I would never trust one if I saw it off lead.

As someone who has been brought up with four rescue Staffies, including a bitch who was dog aggressive. I completely disagree, the bitch we owned took months to rehabilitate  but we did it. And she was later attacked on a park by a Dalmatian and Labrador and never fought back! There is no fighting history in those breeds but should they be banned? Simple answer is no. In fact the only dog I've ever seen bite a child was a yellow Labrador?!

> So sad. :-( I wonder why they destroyed 4 dogs and captured the 5th?

One was "already contained" (either shut away or crated perhaps). I've seen photos of the dogs, there was a link posted earlier on today that led directly to the owner's FB page (!). It appears she had a black & white Staffy, a white American Bulldog, and a Bullmastiff - the latter was apparently not good with children and would behave aggressively towards them so she had it neutered to 'calm him down'. There were also photos of a brindle dog nursing a litter of briindle puppies (Staffs?) which she apparently sold last year.

I did wonder if the bitch Staffy was the one crated or shut away, perhaps she was in season? That may well have led to this incident, with simmering tension between the other males.

Yes, that could have had something to do with it. :-(

The original report said she had just bought a pie for her dinner, and one of the dogs jumped up to grab it as she started eating.

Food could have been the trigger.

My heart goes out to the poor girls family, no child should die like this.

> The original report said she had just bought a pie for her dinner, and one of the dogs jumped up to grab it as she started eating.

The pie has been mentioned quite a few times.
A Bullmastiff or even the American Bulldog I saw in the photos (it looked very tall) could easily have knocked over a teenage girl, and then a fight ensued between the dogs.

The girl was apparently staying at the house for Easter, as she was friends with one of the teenagers who live there. It does beg the question, where were the adults, where were her 'friends' and how did it happen she entered the house alone? And why was a young girl allowed to go out on her own to buy her own lunch, then come back to an empty house with large dogs of uncertain temperament loose inside?

[Just as an aside, having seen a photo of the white American Bulldog involved, it looked a lot taller and more athletic than others I've seen - wondering if it was a Dogo Argentino]

>no child should die like this

It doesn't bear thinking about. She must have been terrified.

And why was a young girl allowed to go out on her own to buy her own lunch, then come back to an empty house with large dogs of uncertain temperament loose inside?

Indeed. I don't let my 13 year old son OR my 21 year old daughter go into the kitchen alone if my dogs are in there, as they don't know them well enough (due to them not living full time with me). I'd rather be safe than sorry. I let my almost 18 year old daughter go in to the dogs as SHE knows them well, as she goes to shows with us and spends more time here, in particular with the dogs. If you have several powerful dogs, you HAVE to be really cautious. Whatever the breed.

That poor young girl :(
Just awful.

BUT, the silly owner of the dogs still has her Facebook profile set to 'public', and having read & seen some of her photo's/comments/BYB practices, I'm hardly surprised.....
Something HAS to change to stop people owning these breeds and breeding from them willy nilly.... :(

> BUT, the silly owner of the dogs still has her Facebook profile set to 'public', and having read & seen some of her photo's/comments/BYB practices, I'm hardly surprised.....

She's indicted herself, hasn't she? (I've read them too).

You may recall I have been lurking on several FB Pets for Sale groups for a while, and I am disturbed by the lack of knowledge of many of these backyard breeders. Yet these are the people flooding the market with dogs bred for money, "multiway crossbreeds" as Brainless put it (I like that term!). Their puppies outnumber those sold by responsible breeders, yet their duty of care towards those they have bred remains at best negligible, or at worst, dangerous, judging by some of the 'advice' I've seen peddled about. They won't accept responsibility for any they have sold, and it looks as though many won't accept responsibility for those they own, either. Dogs are traded, rehomed, bought and sold like inanimate items and passed on again and again.

The only new law we need is a clamping down of puppies being bred for no other reason than money, and some tighter trading standards. Dog breeding is now a huge underground black economy and so many people don't have "pets" any more - they spend £100, £200, £700, £1000 on a dog and think they 'deserve' to get their money back on it! I've said it before, it's just like the Victorians who sent their children out to work - you can't do that any more, so you do it to your so-called "pets".

Firstly I must send my condolences to the family.....BUT feel I must comment.....

I am a very proud owner of a bullmastiff and admit therefore biased but..it really annoys me when idiots on the tv etc pass sweeping statements of all "bull breeds "should be banned.....

I recently read here in the US that a 6 month old baby in a bouncy cradle was mauled to death by a Pomeranian.....so my question is...does that mean that breed should be banned? What possible enticement could a baby have done to give that small dog the reason to kill....

I know it's each to their own ....now we live here we are surrounded by pitbulls.....I adore them...such a misunderstood breed again....we have joined a rescue club and donate to assist in the rehabilitation of the dogs...some are so beaten my heart bleeds....sorry off topic a little!

Such an unfortunate incident and very sad but I will always believe its the environment the dogs are in not the breed....the whole case seems suspicious of bad breeding and training of the dogs....I agree with many of your posts it's the control of the humans breeding these dogs that needs addressing.

> Such an unfortunate incident and very sad but I will always believe its the environment the dogs are in not the breed....

I think in this case it will come down to human failure. Not the dogs' fault, but the fault of the owner who set up this concatenation of events.
As I said before, why was a 14 year old girl, who didn't live there, allowed in the house on her own with these dogs with no adults present?
And if (as it has been said - no idea if it's true) they were shut in the kitchen, then how could this child get herself a drink of water if she needed one?
And did the adult in the house provide food for her, as you'd expect (which would also be in the kitchen)... so she had to go out and buy a pie? That's neglect of a minor, made even worse as her parents had trusted her care to the person owning the house and dogs.

Obviously we don't know all the details, but some are coming through that suggest neglect is the real cause.

Totally agree....this is not the dogs fault....as stated I don't think we will ever know the full details of events....but uneducated comments about that banning certain breeds will make the situation go away is utter nonsense.

The radio discussion I listened to yesterday was asking "should people only be allowed one dog." They had interviewed Mick Martin (dog borstal) in the earlier programme who wanted to know why anyone would want a pack of dogs in their home? In his opinion one dog was enough.

I sat listening surrounded by the 7 that live with me and my family, thinking what would I do if that law came into force?
,

ditto with my 6.

That would mean all decent dog breeders would be finished and only commercial ones left.

Also dogs are a social species, and I am not egotistical enough to think my human company is all they need.

Perhaps some form of competency test may be appropriate once people have more than two dogs.

Didn't I see somewhere statistics that multi dog households were more common than single?  Not surprising with the busy lives people lead which means that they are unable to supply all of a dogs social needs themselves

Unfortunately,as we all know many, many people are acquiring dogs of all breeds, with very little understanding and knowledge of dogs and the way they behave or may react in different situations.

Certain breeds are being labelled as dangerous, but all dogs, probably more so with larger ones, can do a lot of damage. I have retrievers, possibly amongst the most gentle and 'reliable' of breeds, I would however, never under-estimate the possible danger to my grandchildren, if I were to stupidly leave them un-supervised. A vet told me once, that some of the worst bites he had ever seen were inflicted by a Golden Retriever.

I firmly believe if you have more than one dog, you have the potential for pack behaviour and probably less predictability than with one dog. Obviously, one dog can behave 'out of character ' too and all owners should be aware, particularly of the care and supervision imperative when having dogs around children. In this recent tragic case, I suspect the attack that ensued could have been triggered by just one of the dogs.

Many years ago, I  visited a friend who was a very experienced and knowledgeable Rough Collie breeder, I had my own collie with me and my eldest daughter, who was about 7 or 8.

We were sitting in the garden, 3 or 4 of the dogs were with us, all known to us, used to children and of good temperament. Suddenly, with no provacation, no warning one of these lovely dogs attacked my daughter; in a split second, the rest (except my own) joined in.

I grabbed my daughter and thrust her behind me and edged along the house wall, while my friend ran to open the door, as we backed into the back hall the dogs kept coming at us, my friend flung open a door to a room, managed to push them back and daughter and I were safe.

My daughter sustained scratches and torn clothing, we were all in deep shock. To this day I am  convinced that had we not been there, right by my child, those dogs would have at best maimed her, at worst killed her.

My friend would never again have more than one of her dogs together around visitors again. None of these dogs was put down, I must confess, at the time it never occurred to to either of us. It was a one off, terrifying incident. What triggered it, we were never able to work out. We learned a lot that day about pack behaviour- if I hadn't been involved in it -I would never have thought a group of well trained, loving dogs could do such a thing.

Other than reinforcing the respect for dogs and all animals, that all my children had instilled at an early age, my daughter was un-affected by the incident and has her own large breed dogs today. I have related this to illustrate that any breed has the potential, in certain circumstances to be unpredictable, especially I believe, in a pack situation.

I do not think saying certain breeds should not be bred is the answer- where do we draw the line? Would I ban Rough Collies? Of course not!

If what Lucky Girl has posted is proven, then isn't it about time that dog breeding in particular BYB is clamped  down on. The good breeders would have nothing to fear and everything to gain.

But, they won't do it, many of us have been calling for this for years and years myself included, nothing happens, no-one cares who breeds dogs.

Perhaps it comes under the human rights act that it is affecting a persons free liberties to breed if they wish? Who knows?

The only places that it could be enforced are in council and rented homes as a council or landlord can quite rightly say what goes on in their properties, but then you get the innocent caught up as usual. Which is probably why they don't enforce that either.

Apart from the KC which is trying to make dog breeding better no-one else I'm afraid gives two hoots, so nothing will change.... at least I don't think in our lifetime, as sad as that is, we'll all just have to continue being extremely frustrated. :-(

Like some others here I've been browsing the owners Facebook page and its vile! Puppies for sale £200 and look of questionable breeding. In fact, one picture is of the bullmastiff and a comment clearly states that the dog doesn't like youngsters and has gone to bite previously?! What on earth was that young girl doing in that house with a dog which has previously gone to attack and doesn't like youngsters?!

he Goverment will take stricter control on how dogs are bred and sold

They got to much slagging of for the bans on APDTs to risk another outcry

>Like some others here I've been browsing the owners Facebook page and its vile!

Did you see the photos of the white dog (American bulldog?)... She claims it doesn't get on with her male staffy, so there could have been any kind of tension and stress among the dogs.

Yes and my initial thought about him was he reminded me of a dogo, just his head shape. So we've got dogs that don't like each other, a child aggressive bullmastiff and food present. A recipe for disaster. According to the national newspapers the owner is now on the run. Has anybody been watching This Morning? It was implied by the presenter on there (I can never remember her name) that some dog breeds are nasty in their 'DNA' and should be banned, needless to say I was spitting feathers at the television.

Looking at the fb page and the comments, it does nothing to dispel the stereo type of the kind of people that go for staffies and the like :(

I thought Dogo as well... I couldn't find any photos of AmBulls that had the same proportions.

This is the dog, pic from Daily Mail website where they're calling it a Bull Mastiff! Yeah, right.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/27/article-2299474-18F00D27000005DC-926_634x556.jpg

Where did you all find comments and prices of pups etc, I saw nothing but photos on FB? (Looks like that's where the Daily Mail got their photos from.)

I think they're in the Mobile uploads folder with comments underneath.

Cheers.

Bullmastiff ???? God knows what the white dog is, but it looks like five very powerful dog.
By all accounts one was caged.
Possibly a bitch in season, male dogs that don't like each other, one dog that is said to be aggressive around children by it's owner and a child with food.
Whenever these terrible incidents happen, why is it that we can see what has probably occurred ? But the police and the media are at a total loss !!
Why do they never bring on an animal behaviourist or expert at least then they would be educating the general public on how to avoid such tragic incidents. Instead you just get sensational journalism and pictures of devil dogs.
I have four dogs here two large breed and two medium, all well trained, but I can see a time when perhaps I would not be allowed to have so many dogs.
We already have restrictions on how many dogs can be walked in certain areas, what controls will be forced upon us next.
I own my own home, but I live next door to an Envoromental Health Inspector for the Local Authority (never had any problems with him ) but I just worry sometimes that big brother could be living next door.

Think the dog that was caged is a Shih Tzu. The white dog is supposed to be an american bull dog.

I suppose as usual, the owner, either won't receive any punishment, or very little, what ever happened to owner responsibility ?.
In truth, I don't think the government gives a hoot about the dog situation, if they find a way they can make cash from the problem they might just get up off their collective fat arses and tackle the issue.

Currently there is no law that can punish the owner as the DDA won't apply. The 1871 Dogs Act will only punish the dogs. Having said that, personally I would HATE to see the DDA to extend to private property. That's just asking for trouble.  Whether the owner is punished or not, it still won't prevent attacks. Not many people will think of their dogs "My dog might kill somebody so I best keep them locked away even in the house or garden".

Hmmm, I dunno, I think if enough was done, people would start thinking about it like drink driving, sure it still happens, but the numbers are falling.

Celli my point was that very few people would think their dogs capable of killing so therefore would see no need to be ultra cautious. But everyone knows drink driving is dangerous. It might help with a few, but I cannot see that the great majority would make any difference at all. Every case we hear of somebody says "This dog has never acted like this before".

On the other hand, I can see so many ways of it being abused. Boyfriend and girlfriend split up, one of them wants revenge, has a small scratch or bite even or bruises from rough play with the other partner's dog -let's report the dog under the DDA. Friendly dog mouths visitor's hand and the visitor has sensitive skin and starts bleeding (my mum for instance bleeds for nothing) -visitor reports dog under the DDA. Or, small child pokes dog hard in the eye, has been left unattended with it for just a moment, dog has enough, kills child -parents distraught, and then on top of their grief they are taken to court under the DDA. Or parents with friendly dog worries so much about what will happen they get rid of the dog.

Fair point Marianne, but perhaps if there was more culpability for dog attacks, people would start thinking like that.

We already have the private property law up here, it is a worry, not so much the attacks on people, but you can end up in trouble over your dog attacking another animal, even if it trespasses into your property, scary stuff.

As a owner of two DDB's (a breed's whose picture was wrongly used on the front page of yesterday's earlier edition of the daily star in relation to this story) I wouldn't leave any of our dogs unsupervised around children or those who visit our house, & honestly majority % of responsible owner wouldn't either. When we have visitors aged from 10 months to 62 Years the dogs (aged 6 & 9 months) both go into the kitchen separated by a baby gate from open plan living room they can see us & we can see them, when calm we allow them to greet visitors.

Although legislation needs IMO needs to be tighter regarding attacks to visitors on private property I think breed specific legislation hasn't stopped the problem of dog attacks in the uk. End BSL & look to prosecute the other end of the lead I.e. the owners. By targeting BYB it can reduce the amount of puppies brought on a whim with little or no knowledge on how to train or look after it.

The media frenzy when a bull or mastiff breed attacks a person is often 10 x's the amount of when a smaller breed attacks. Any breeds has the potential to attack & kill another person from a yorkie to a English mastiff. Remember a while back when a JRT (I think) killed a newborn baby not long ago, there was little people calling for the banning or muzzling of all JRT's (:

All the same regardless of breed, a young girl has unfortunately lost her life RIP jade xxx

Remember a while back when a JRT (I think) killed a newborn baby not long ago, there was little people calling for the banning or muzzling of all JRT's (:

You have to admit there is a significant different though. Had this poor girl been attacked by 4 Jack Russells, chances are very good she'd still be alive. That's why people don't call for smaller breeds to be banned when something happens.

I am just dreading the day my breed kills somebody, as I am sure will happen eventually what with all the irresponsible breeding and selling going on at the moment. It has already happened abroad. :( I think any big breed that doesn't look cute and innocent will be fair game in the media as the next one to call for a ban of.

> I am just dreading the day my breed kills somebody, as I am sure will happen eventually what with all the irresponsible breeding and selling going on at the moment. It has already happened abroad.

I think people fail to realise that ANY breed is capable of harm, given a certain set of circumstances. Just because it's fluffy and has floppy ears or a squashed in face, doesn't exempt it from the laws of nature, no matter what size it is.

Last year a St Bernard, a recent rescue from a local shelter, killed a Border Collie while out on a walk... not crushing it because of its size, but actually shaking the poor dog. Dog to dog aggression is not the same as dog to human, I know -  but Saints are not perceived by the general public to be capable of anything except slobbering, Beethoven, and rescuing people trapped in the snow.

I think people fail to realise that ANY breed is capable of harm, given a certain set of circumstances. Just because it's fluffy and has floppy ears or a squashed in face, doesn't exempt it from the laws of nature, no matter what size it is.


Exactly. If a Golden Retriever killed somebody, there would not be a media outcry as few people would assume it was anything but a freaky one off.

but Saints are not perceived by the general public to be capable of anything except slobbering, Beethoven, and rescuing people trapped in the snow.

Unless their name is Cujo. ;)