Seeking some advice.. I have a 18 week old Border collie pup, we have had him since he was 8 weeks and was great at first, but since i have started to take him out for walks he is lunging and barking ( quite aggressive sounding) at other people and dogs. He has developed the bad behavior of chasing moving wheels, which all in told is making walking him very stressful.
I have tried treats, praise, sitting and looking at people, cars etc to show nothing to be scared of, walking quickly past and trying to ignore the behavior, but i am now stuck as to which way to go with his training..

We met another collie owner the other day and he just ignored my boy and he eventually let him stroke him. He kept lunging on the lead but with his tail wagging to play with the other collie..
Today i let him off the lead for the first time and he came back after he met another dog, he nipped at her and she rolled over onto her back. He ran towards the road (it was some distance off, i positioned myself that i would have enough time to recall, plus there are locked gates) when he noticed the vehicles, but came back after a couple of calls and he noticed i was walking away.

I know he is not vicious (sounds it sometimes on the lead) as i have a baby daughter and grand daughter who he just licks and plays with. People come into the house, he barks, heckles up and does not stop till i remove him, then i will re introduce him when calm and he is fine then... He just loves attention and is very strong willed.

He does not like going outside in the garden on his own, is happy if door left open will run in and out, but if outside in garden will bark till i tell him "quiet".. He is still messing on the kitchen floor (not so much during the day)..
Any help and advice is greatly appreciated...

Sounds like a typical understimulated collie pup. I would be looking at taking up a sport with him, agility, flyball - too young to be jumping yet I know, obedience, etc and finding a positive trainer/behaviourist, maybe through the APDT, who can get their eyes on the dog to help you out, especially with the car chasing as this can become a real problem if not addressed properly. I am far from an expert, and you will get much better advice from other people on here, but I would personally want a much stronger recall before letting him off the lead, with the use of a training line and rewards. I would also be introducing him to 'safe' dogs- ie sensible, older, well socialised, well balanced dogs, if you know enough of them, before he becomes a bit of a thug.

These are the exact kind of collies who are left to become out of control and find themselves in rescue or free to a good home. Good on you for reaching out for advice :) They are very very clever dogs, and it's just as easy to unknowingly reinforce behaviours you don't want. From one crazy collie owner to another ;)

Thanks for the reply.. I did ask a friend who has a well behaved border collie if she would come on a walk with us, but as she works full time it can only be on a Friday or over the weekend, so here's hoping that her man can teach mine a few social graces this week..  :-)

He sounds like he's lacking in self control.  He also sounds like the classic pup that I see for work - of any breed!  So what he needs right now is self control work and mental stimulation.  Get a clicker!  Have a look at heelwork to music/freestyle for ideas for gentle tricks (keeping his growing joints in mind so no stuff up on his back legs or the like) and get training.  Doesn't matter if you don't do it in the future - it's just something for him to do.  Scent training is something I find very good for collie brains - it's not too physically hard and it really works the brain and tires them out.

Self control - things like waiting for his food (with the bowl on the floor), waiting for doors, wind up and calm down game (I'll have a look for a link for that one), training a solid 'leave' (which will help directly with the car chasing), will help.  Be very aware of doing exciting, repetitive things like ball chasing (not that he should be doing that now anyway, but something to bear in mind for the future) as this can push the adrenalin up and affect self control.  My lab/collie was terrible for car chasing when I got her, I stopped all ball play for a couple of months to see if it would calm her down generally as her self control was completely absent and an unexpected side effect was that the car chasing stopped with no work from me.

With dogs specifically, teaching him that barking/lunging/nipping loses him any chance of play, and that calm, sensible behaviour gets him closer, will really help drive home the self control in that respect.

It's no good expecting another person's dog to teach your dog manners, that's your job. Find a good training club where you can learn how to get his attention with other distractions around, teach him recall, an emergency stop and have supervised socialisation with other people/dogs. I also would not allow him off the lead yet as he is at risk of being bitten by other dogs (and biting them himself) and being run over/learning that chasing cars is fun. I would teach him to play fetch (with a ball, fling-ring etc), which will give him an outlet for his herding behaviour and use this on walks so he sees you as the source of fun, not other dogs/cars. 

My initial thoughts are ... why are you posting on a forum for advice and not getting help from your pup's breeder?

I'm afraid I'd be horrified if one of my pups owners were to post amongst strangers rather than seek help from myself.

If your pup is showing chase instincts then without correct help you could potentially severely stuff up! Which is why the breeder should be the best person to turn to. Assuning pup came from a responsible breeder?

I would never expect the breeder to tell me how to train a dog - This is an excellent place to start looking for advice and the op has a long way to go.   Collies are bred to chase!  Self control can only be taught when the dog learns to focus on it's owner - there are plenty of games and activities that one can do - I am sure someone will come along with some links but it will need lots of work and determination.  I speak from experience.  Some collies are worse than others for getting their 'eye' in for cars etc and quite honestly it is a difficult habit to break.  I had help and advice from some very good people on here for which I will always be very grateful but there is no magic wand - there are lots of sites on the internet that give ideas for training - Karen Pryor clicker training for one. 

yes sounds like a very 'worky' but typical border collie... but also sounds under socialised, which you'll have to be quick to catch up on... away from distractions like traffic he needs to meet calm dogs and get to know his social graces... what socialising have you done with him?  Training... you may have 'tried' a few things, but consistency and persistence is the key - it's not going to happen in a few sessions... it's a lot of work with a dog like this... you will need to start eg some distance from traffic, praising him for any calmness, moving slowly towards the traffic and if you go too far, moving back again.

Generally - he needs to focus on you, you need to do a lot of basic training with him - mental training that is... he will need a lot of time and patience.  I agree with others about clicker training, train him to pick up and tidy up toys, do all sorts of tricks.

If you haven't already read it - read Gwen Bailey's 'the Perfect Puppy'.

Don't let your pup off lead until you (and he) has more control - and is more socialised.. find people who you can walk with, train with etc

Join a good training group that uses positive kind methods.

Good luck

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/#behaviors
http://www.video.clickertraining.com/library

Sorry ceejay, have to completely disagree with you. As an owner of Border Collies (working strain) and a breeder of Border Collies, I do know just a little bit about the breed! The breeder of well bred collies is the first port of call for a chasing problem. This is not a 'training' issue, it is a problem.

By all means ask for advice elsewhere, but the first port of call should always be the breeder. If it isn't then there is something seriously wrong.

Pure bred collies ARE NOT bred to 'chase'. They are bred to hunt and to cut off, but chase does not remotely come into it. However, if the OP has a non pure bred collie, which might include something like, say a lurcher, then chase it might. If the breeder of this collie is a good breeder, knowing their breed, having an interest in the pups they have bred, then they should be the best person available to help the OP. There is nothing better than help from a knowledgeable person stood by their side, which hopefully the OP might have in their breeder ... unless it was a puppy farmed dog, or from someone who couldn't give two hoots :-(

OK Trialist I do take your points - I shouldn't have made a sweeping statement like collies are bred to chase - but they do get fixated by movement and many do chase and get put into rescue.  I had one from rescue on trial for a couple of nights - she was perfectly calm until I got near the main road.  I knew that I hadn't got the know how to tackle it and so I had to leave the poor girl there.  I did get my present dog from a shepherd - who would not have been interested in helping with any problems.  I must admit I would not have thought to have gone back to ask anyway.  My previous dog was from a very well thought of breeder (not Collie) and I think the only advice that I could have really asked was for showing not behaviour - I had no help at all for his poor recall. 
My next dog is from far better background but the breeder expects me to know how to handle him myself - I would not go back to her to ask for help - she is taking the utmost care in making sure all her puppies go to good working homes and I will be keeping in close touch anyway.  I have got plenty of support around me now with the training classes I go to but it took time to build up.  When I started finding out that having a collie was so different from my previous dog I didn't know anyone I could turn to. It was hard.   Some people are very good at making you feel small too because you can't control your collie. I wish the OP good luck! 

They may not actually be bred to chase but that's precisely what many do.  With cars there's not much else they can do - they can't catch up with a moving car, so chase becomes the only option, so to speak.  Might not be the intention but that's how it ends up, and with the adrenalin/endorphin rush that comes with it, chasing can easily becoming addictive.

Add in all the collies who aren't bred for their working ability and there will be those who just want to chase - they don't have to be crossbred for that to happen.

Awww, you've missed the point I was making. Border Collies are NOT BRED to chase :-) They may chase, I know they don't have to be a crossbreed to do that, but 'chase' is not what the breed was 'designed' to do!

I think it depends what you mean by 'chase' and lots of collies do chase - particularly cars, other dogs etc.

Collies are bred to basically find, move, split up and pen what they originally thought of as 'prey' ie what they do is the basic of catching dinner... which is why many find the 'drive' ie in their eyes going the wrong way - away from the boss/camp fire - so hard.

Most collies, especially if they're more 'worky' bred need mental stimulation and in it's absence they'll do a lot of other things - chasing, digging, even jumping up and down to make 'bits' jump, anything to keep themselves even vaguely occupied

I've had one who was very keen and focussed on movement etc from day 1 coming home, others more laid back, particularly watching agility until they started training, others very focussed on movement. 

Breeders may be able to help - I wish someone who'd taken a pup from me had asked for help from me instead of screwing him up themselves and with the help of so -called behaviourist... the guy who took him on at 18 months far more sensible....

> I think it depends what you mean by 'chase' and lots of collies do chase

> Most collies, especially if they're more 'worky' bred need mental stimulation and in it's absence they'll do a lot of other things

Totally agree, my Collie is a rescue from working strain, dumped as a 6 month old, she's now nearly 15yrs. She took some considerable time to house train and once settled took a great deal of work to 'get right'.

She needed loads of 'jobs' to keep her happy and out of mischief, she had in her younger day a massive desire to chase, catch and return to me, so the ball became her prey.

Her food used to be hidden in kongs and under light bowls that she had to work at to get, her toys had to be taken out of the toy box and returned to the box by her, her job on walks was to carry the ball and when allowed she had to drop it at my feet and wait for it to be thrown then when told she was allowed to chase retrieve and return with it, this could go on for hours for her and she'd never tire unlike me!!

She was also a great swimmer and would retrieve the ball, back and forth back and forth, it kept her fit and happy and not quite worn out!!

She also benefited from long lead walks in very busy places heavily trafficked with people and cars when she was not allowed off lead.
Collies are special dogs and not for the faint hearted, they need a busy owner IMHO.

The OP's pup just sounds like a typical collie pup to me, keep it busy whilst being aware of it's age, make it work for all of it's pleasures, teach it tricks and games, just give it something to do, I'd say.

Still missing my original point! ... collies are not BRED to chase. Chase is not what is required in their makeup ... agree re find, move, split up, pen, on a par with my comments re hunt and cut off. But My comment was re the purpose of the collie breed, which is not to 'chase'! I'm not disputing the fact that some do.

So, I'm not going to draw attention to my original point any further, as this is not helping the OP at all. I hope the OP has contacted the breeder of their collie for help, they really should be the first port of call, as this isn't just a training issue it's a behaviour issue. If a breeder doesn't know their breed well enough to be able to help with problems, such as this, then they should not be breeding.

As a breeder or working line Border Collies I am here to help my pup owners, no matter what the issue, whether just bog standard training, such as a really strong recall, to the pup that may have decided it's going to bark at the food mixer, right through to the pup that's decided it wants to work sheep but the owner doesn't!! I'm here for them, and I work with them. Isn't that what any responsible breeder should do? Sadly, I'm suspecting the original OP may not have got a pup from such a breeder, but I might be wrong!

I am sorry I used those words!   Trialist the OP hasn't come back to tell us how she is getting on - please don't make them feel bad because they have got a dog from a farm or wherever - it is marvelous to hear that there are such helpful supportive breeders as yourself - but I am sure many breeders would not have the time to help someone train their dog - that is quite a commitment to make.  One normally pays someone for that to be practical.  Training a collie which is easily wound up by moving cars etc isn't an overnight thing to solve.  It is only part and parcel of that dog's temperament and needs. 

No need to feel sorry for those words ... it's important to clarify. But, the 'chasing of moving wheels' becomes a life or death situation!

There's no intention of scaring the OP off, and there's no shame in getting a well reared farm dog, I've had them myself. However, the points raised by the OP I don't consider as training, they're more behavioural. And again, at this age of pup yes I would expect my pup owners to turn to me first, it's nothing to do with time or being a supportive breeder, it's my duty, as someone who has bred a litter, to be there for such support if required. I have a number of 'farm' friends who breed dogs as well and they too would be available if required. Quite frankly if a breeder hasn't got the time to help in such a situation then I'd question why they're breeding. I have little time to spare, but I always make time for the needs of my pups if it's required.

Teaching collies not to react to moving vehicles can be solved quite quickly if the owner knows what to do (with the help of someone who does) and is committed to solving the issue.

I hope the OP comes back on ... but I'm not taking the blame if they don't. As we all know on CD, there are plenty of people who post and then never return to a thread. I very rarely stick up for a point I believe in, but this is one of those points, so I'm having my say ;-)

This is aimed at no one in particular, I am passionate about my breed (working line Border Collies) and it's all too easy to pass off behavioural issues as being just a collie 'breed' thing, they generally are not. :-D