After watching the group the staffie appeared lame, also can someone put me right on why the need for picking up a dogs back end and dropping it?? I couldn't help but wince as that staff must of hurt.

I agree that the Staffie looked lame, in fact Jessica Holm mentioned it on the live YouTube stream and Frank Kane said she had been showing well in the breed ring? Maybe it was just the end of a long day.

Ive read she was lame n breed judgng and there wasnt much applaud when she got bob.

If that were me and I had a lame dog it wouldn't of been in the ring. Or if it had gone lame in the ring which I've experienced I've withdrawn.
I'm not sure what was up with it but it wasn't right... And if you are correct on saying that it was lame in the breed ring too, shocking. We had that last year and it was evident that the DCC was lame, it is a lovely dog but I can't abide by judges ignoring poor movement and lameness which is so damned evident!!

I know! Ive got a lot of flak on fb by terrier folk  for complaining about lifting up rear and dropping ot too, I can't see how it is necessary and I find it akin to the liftng by tails.

the stafford bitch was lame throughout , not just when she got to the group stages.  how 2 championship judges missed this is an absolute disgrace, it makes a mockery of the show game.i feel sorry for all those that went with sound , good quality dogs and expected a fair assessment.how can a lame bitch represent the breed well in the later stages ? at best it was incompetent and at worst , well.....i hope jemima harrison doesn't end up with a copy of that video on her desk or the stafford might be joining the "at risk" breed register.it is disgusting to think that with so many decent , fit for function staffords around that many judges seem to want to award top honours to dogs that are anything but.

Goodness, if that really is the case and there is visual evidence of this I'd be very worried indeed. By that I mean she was clearly lame in the group but if it could be shown she had the same issue in breed classes then that is appalling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdwGyw64sdA

See for yourselves at 2.11   clearly lame for the breed BOB . Gone over by 2 judges ...someone needs to explain themselves to the KC

The quietness of the spectators says it all, they are normally really loud.

stunned disbelief i think is the term, how can anybody , especially in this day and age promote a lame dog after programs have been aired like pedigree dogs exposed and the kc's fit for function campaign, it's knocking nails into their own coffins.

Begins more at around 2.25 when both dogs are being moved but emphasis is on dog who moves so much better. Bitch's movement does not look good, but I'd like to hear from some Staffie people, ideally there on day.

my point is proven ...some are picked before even enterd the ring!! il be slated but true...:(

i agree with that, not all but definately some.its made the breed look crooked.

yep cooper this breed gets enough bad press and now this!! :( iv looked at the link as i missed it on tv omg that dog looks terrible if i was showing this breed id be so upset i think those judges need to saying why!! its a joke!!

You can only see her take about 4 steps, but it didn't look very even for sure. :-(

I stayed for the Terrier group. Was a bit far away to really assess her movement but my initial impression was that she was nervous as she stayed a bit low to the ground and wasn't moving out at all. She did looked lame in the youtube clip though. Must say, when I saw her come into the group ring I was pretty shocked that she was awarded best of breed just based on the fact that she really didn't show any of the confident terrier spirit that I would normally expect from the dogs in that group.

So heartbreaking :(
I (like a large proportion of other Staffords enthusiasts) are absolutely gobsmacked by this :(

Quite clearly on the breed judging, you can see the female judge saying 'do they have to film this'.  About says it all to me.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. :(

hmmm will have to keep my mouth shut on this one, so much can be said.

Diddles - why? If you can't say it, why post at all?

I've looked at all the vid clips available and shes lame, she also looks very unhappy in the group ring and not at all what I think an SBT should look like, to me she looks like a dog who is at the very best... physically uncomfortable, at worst, in pain.

But has anyone who was actually there and saw this for themselves, made an official complaint?

I would be absolutely mortified if a dog of mine looked that unhappy in the ring and I would not let them go in the ring if it turned out that they went lame at the show.

I honestly cannot think that there is ANY excuse for her being shown in the first place, she should have been withdrawn, and she should never have been placed!

Agree with you Theemx , shame on the owner and the judges.

I said exactly this when I was watching it live.

Only two conclusions really- either the judges ('cos both looked at her) could not see that she was lame in which case they do not have the level of skill to judge movement, or they knew and put her up which probably means some kind of corruption. What the heck is going on? This is meant to be the absolute cream of dogs.

This needs to be looked at.

Have to say that in the terrier group a number of dogs seemed shy or backed off the judge which feels all wrong too.

Awful and even more was the reaction of the judge when she jumped up on him.

>the reaction of the judge when she jumped up on him.

That surprised and shocked me too. No fondle of the ears or any sign of appreciation.

Theemx

Because it you start making comments about bent judges, or who gets the ticket before they get in the ring a whole can of worms.
The bitch was obviously lame, and not very happy at all.

I happen to agree with everything you say, and if mine to was looking uncomfortable I would not embarrass myself by taking the dog in the ring.

Perhaps the judges didn't notice and genuinely thought the bitch was better than the dog ;)

> Perhaps the judges didn't notice and genuinely thought the bitch was better than the dog ;-)

Nearly choked on my coffee at that comment! Shame on the judges for putting up an unsound dog.

Just watched footage again.

The bitch is a champion and big winner- 27 cc's, three at Crufts. The dog is young and not yet made up. I think this is collusion to chase some kind of record and Frank Kane was watching the whole thing too....????!!!!

If you watch throughout the bitch's right leg is consistently shaking. The female judge appears to be calling the shots.

It really is like a case of the Emporer's New Clothes. The more I think about this the more it bothers me. Are there any big Stafford breeders that can explain what has gone on here, is the world of showing really as bent as it seems here?

I just watched the group judging again - shockingly lame and very unhappy looking. Doesn't make the judge or the exhibitor look very nice, showing a dog like that! :-(

Agree with all that has been said. Poor dog looked so unhappy and definitely had a problem with its gait.
It puts a really downer on the idea of showing too

If you watch the breed judging video carefully you can see one of the judges saying ''do they have to film this''! Its the RCC bitch winner and the dog winner that I feel for as they could of represented the breed much better in the group as the bitch was also lame during breed judging...42 bitches in the open class and this goes forward :(

On this video at 1:55
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdwGyw64sdA

To add to this as well a dog in one of the other classes also bit the dog judge..sad day for the breed :(
I know alot of staffy folk have contacted the KC who have told them to put it in writing to their Breed coucil as this is the only way it will be heard.

The dog is a Champion :)

Ah, beg your pardon about the dog.

I hope the KC is deluged with complaints about this. They really have got to sort themselves out. I am disgusted and this is not my breed. What the heck were the judges and Frank Kane playing at? What makes these people even bigger fools is they seem to think that the general public will not notice, or worse perhaps they don't care.

Jessica Holme mentioned that the bitch was lame in the group while doing her commentary, to which Frank replied something along the lines that she had gone well in breed judging earlier. Someone should send him the video link.

With the world's eyes on Crufts they got this soo wrong. It may be a case of the judges didnt notice the lameness during breed judging or it was simply a case of putting up the face....

But if judges at this level get a decision so wrong surely the KC have to do something- the evidence is there in front of our eyes. The advice to write to the breed council sounds like a duck out. After everything that has been said and done in the last few years I feel the KC have to be seen to be much more hands on. I just don't believe the judges did not see the problem. That's two champ show judges, a steward, possibly a referee and Frank Kane who all managed to miss the problem?

People who have contacted the KC already have been told to put it to their  breed council as this is the best way of getting something heard..sad but true :(

Perhaps they didn't miss is just didn't want to do anything or know how to deal with it in such a big event being watched by so many people.

Either way wrong in so many ways and the KC need to step up and take control of the situation.

Well Frank Kane's comment about waiting for the biggest cheer at Crufts certainly did not come true!  I think this is the first time I have seen a Staff showing without it's tail wagging madly, the poor bitches tail just hangs, both moving and when being gone over in the challenge.  How could anyone miss this movement, especially when looking as closely as a judge is meant to?  For 2 judges to miss it at the same time - add!

Agree with pretty well everything that has been said but don't blame the steward they have nothing to do with the judging or the judges decision.

Gwen, agreed.

One waits with baited breath to see if Crufts and the KC actually engages with what has to be seen as a major problem in this instance, or yet again tries to pass the buck and hope it all blows over. Those involved should hang their heads in shame.

Has the breed Club made any comment  ?
Is there more than one breed club ?
Is a complaint going to be made ?

Please let us know the outcome, this kind of thing gives dog showing a bad name, and lets us all down.

I imagine that the breed council and KC will wait to see what volume of complaints they receive, before deciding what, if any, action to take. It's difficult because even though many seem to be angry it would need people to actually put pen to paper and be named. That is where the difficulty lies, as once named those objecting may carry a black mark, that is if they show within the breed concerned.

I note that the bitch critique by judge Jan Hunter is not yet up on Terrier World website. The dog critique is up. It will be interesting to see what is said about the winning bitch in the critique. The dog's sound movement is noted in the published dog critique.

Others have noted that the bitch was lame at all levels of judging and that the owner has stated she had cramp!

It is my belief that the aim here was to chase a record- the bitch is now the biggest winner in the breed.

I do so hope that people do not bury their heads in the sand over this one.

Cramp or not, she should have been withdrawn.   If she did have cramp, was she seen by a vet?

It will be interesting to see whether the judge gets any more appointments in the breed, and if so, how many people enter under her ;)

People often vote with their feet in situations like this ;)

I just wanted to say a few words, mostly so that there isn't speculation etc.. but also so that people don't think SBT 'people' aren't doing anything! lol
I'm not sure it's even my place to pass this info on, but as a Stafford owner/lover I feel it only right...

There are many Stafford exhibitors AND lovers who have voiced their disgust and have put in their complaint.  Not only to Crufts and the KC, but also to the Breed Council at a recent meeting.
We all await the outcome.... if any.

that is good to know. Lets hope that there is a suitable response from the KC. After all there is a lot of video evidence. It should be hard to ignore. If you can please let us know the response from the KC. Thanks

There have been a couple of standardised replies from the KC.  One being they won't just accept complaints unless it comes from the Breed Council...
Others have paid to submit official complaints to the KC with video evidence, etc attached.. these have been sent in hard copy format and by email, to which one reply came from Caroline Kisco saying that 'The matter has already been notified to us and is receiving attention - as I know you will appreciate we take such matters very seriously.'

The aforementioned letter was read out at the Breed Council meeting as was the reply from the KC, and so the BC did not have anything further to add at the time of the meeting.

Like I said, I don't want to appear to be 'tittle tattling'.. so I'm aware of being careful about what I pass on that other people have written, however, due to the fact that I feel so strongly about MY chosen breed, I feel it only fair to pass on what action has been taken so far.
Cheers.

Thanks. I do think it is important for the good of showing that the KC not only does something but is also seen to have done something. Lets face it  the judge made a totally incorrect decision in front of the whole world. The bitch  should not have won her class moving like that, never mind the CC and BOB. If the KC brush this under the carpet it makes a mockery of everything they have been saying about how they are trying to safeguard the health of pedigree dogs.

I realise that reporting what is happening might put you in an awkward position so if you feel you can't give further reports than obviously don't :) but I for one appreciate knowing that a complaint was made. I hope that there is  suitable  disciplinary action taken against the judge who chose to totally ignore all the guidelines about picking sound dogs.

TT,

Thank goodness for people like you. You are not tittle tattling. We are not at school and the KC is not the teacher. Quite the opposite, it is the KC it seems that needs to be taught to start taking action against those who bend the rules, instead of paying lip service to a set of principles about fitness and function.

The KC will be thinking first and foremost about PR fall out and hoping to skirt around a potential scandal. That won't do. If they don't address this properly we'll just go on getting more of the same.

In my view the judge/s should be disciplined and the bitch winner stripped of the title (the dog won't care after all ). If possible the title should be given to the dog. I notice that the website of the winning bitch proclaims itself as a kennel of record holders....says it all really.

TT please keep us up to date. Perhaps this thread can also be forwarded to the KC as evidence of the depth of people's disgust at what appears to be bent judging at the world's premier dog show. 

>Like I said, I don't want to appear to be 'tittle tattling

TT,
Can I add my thanks for your input into this thread ~ and with regards to the above, my thanks is because what you have done in clarifying the situation as it stands, will in fact (hopefully) put a stop to the 'tittle tattling'!
    I think we can all appreciate what a difficult position this has put you and many in such a wonderful breed in!  So well done you I say.
     We all know rumour is half round the World before the truth has even got his boots on, so factual relaying of events is vital.

I'd also like to say to all the great Stafford ambassadors,breed club breeders and campaigners that this instance has not lessened my respect of them ~ I very much feel for those that are disgusted/mortified/saddened and hope the KC in conjunction with the Breed club give them the resolution they and their dogs deserve.

Glad to hear that wheels are in motion somewhere..

Is there likely to be any benefit in someone such as myself, who ONLY saw the Crufts footage and is not involved with the breed or even particularly with showing at the moment, in trying to complain?  If there is, I will certainly do so.

I agree with HuskyGal here as well, this hasn't reduced my respect for THEM, only for the Kennel and Judges involved.

> Is there likely to be any benefit in someone such as myself, who ONLY saw the Crufts footage and is not involved with the breed or even particularly with showing at the moment, in trying to complain?  If there is, I will certainly do so.

I wondered that too. I will if it will do any good. Maybe if they get enough complaints from the public it will help them realise they can't just ignore bad judging

I think anyone who was horrified or offended by this example of poor judging has a right to make a complaint as to if any notice will be taken I think if there are a good handful there will because if nothing else the complaints will have to receive a reply.

Even now I doubt the breed judge will get off Scot free but it will be interesting to see if the group judge does.