Hi all

Just wondered what everyones experience of pregnancy scans is and how reliable they are.  My girls first mating was 40 days ago and she was with the dog for 5 full days.  She was scanned at day 30 (from first mating) and vet could see nothing.  Vet thought it was maybe just early so been back today but still nothing to be seen.  Should I take this as the mating was not successful or is it still possible the pups were just missed on the scan.  She is showing all other signs of pregnancy, enlarged nipples, exceptionally clingy, weight gain (despite decreased appetite) etc.  Would you advise to change her care from today as if she was pregnant just in case, or should I accept that the vet and the scan were correct and shes not pregnant.

Any advice greatly appreciated

Having had a bitch who had 4 very convincing phantoms I would say if at this stage there are no pups then she isn't pregnant, you have had 2 scans with not a hint of a sac and even though she didn't conceive till a few days after the last day she was with the dog something would be showing by now.

Did you witness the matings and how many were there?

I have had both examples of this so it is hard to say, a phantom pregnancy and a bitch that was scanned but showed no sign of any puppies. However if your bitch is now 40 days pregnant you should to be honest be able to feel something, whether that be movement or even just the shape of something other that tummy flesh. If the vet seems unconvinced that she is pregnant i would say it has been a miss this time - many seem to know what they are talking about, but it is always good to get a second opinion. However be prepared for a surprise puppy! My Shih Tzu was mated twice, she showed no sign of real pregnancy at all, gained hardly any weight and stayed her normal self, we had her scanned and the vet couldn't find anything, however just two weeks later out came a single puppy. We were very surprised but it can happen!!  

No Rhodach I didn't view the matings but I trust the stud owner and she did - she stayed with them for the first mating (bitches day 10 of her season) and then left them together for 5 days, she witnessed them mating several times over those 5 days and he is a proven stud.

I've been advised by a close friend who breeds a large breed that she always found that unless the date of the scan was quite specific, they very rarely showed pups.  Too early and they aren't developed sufficiently to see and too late then there was too much fluid around them to see.  Does this sound right?

I've also heard it can depend on the time of day the scan is done and how much the bitch has had to eat and drink beforehand.  Has anyone heard of this?

As this is my first time I am not sure if the pups are visible or I can feel them - when she is laid on my knee I think I can feel and see something but unsure if it's just my wishful thinking.

As for getting a second opinion, I did ask the vet if a blood test would be the next step but he advised they aren't conclusive either.

Do I just have to now wait and see or is there anything else I can do to find out for certain?

i haveasmall breed she was scanned on day 27 by 1st mate as that was when scanner could come ,well she scanned and we saw sacks right away only saw 3 but she had 5 ,i think day 30 is fine to see them.

- she stayed with them for the first mating (bitches day 10 of her season) and then left them together for 5 days, she witnessed them mating several times over those 5 days and he is a proven stud.

That's quote a shocking statement so I hope I've misunderstood it -surely the stud dog owner didn't leave them together unsupervised on and off for five days?

For an inexperienced scanner, it's usually said it's best to scan after day 30, but I've never heard that it should be hard to see pups on a scan later on.  At 40 days of pregnancy though I'd expect to see other pregnancy signs. Change in behaviour, has she had morning sickness and/or been off her food?, enlarged teats etc.

No Goldmali - I should probably have said KEPT rather than left them together - they weren't unsupervised.

She has EVERY other sign of pregnancy - enlarged teats, off her food but gaining weight, exceptionally clingy and just over the past few days she has been very sorry for herself and reluctant to play with the other dog and doesn;t like going outside at all (although with the snow again I can't blame her for that one!!)

So do I just wait and see do you think??

I too am shocked that every mating wasn't supervised, only once have I left a bitch with her breeder and stud owner and they were kept separate and brought together once per day, this is what I would expect to happen for the safety of both dogs, there would be 2 matings with a day off inbetween so the whelping window was clear.

Scans show pups regardless of amount of fluid[think pregnant human]what isn't possible after about 32days is to palpate the pups because of the fluid. Having eaten shouldn't be a problem as heart beats will be detected regardless of what is in her gut.

The being depressed can be the signs of the end of a phantom, my girl was like that at the end of her first 44days and fourth 40 days but just bounced back to normal in a few days, don't let her hoard/mother soft toys or she could produce milk which will prolong things.

>I've  been advised by a close friend who breeds a large breed that she always found that unless the date of the scan was quite specific, they very rarely showed pups.  Too early and they aren't developed sufficiently to see and too late then there was too much fluid around them to see. 

That applies to 'Palpation' but not to scanning.  Later it becomes difficult to do numbers as the scanner can only pick up a certain area at a time.

It all depends on the skill of the person scanning.  Back in 1999 my vet had a person in to scan who did it for a living primarily to diagnosing tumours etc, and he scanned my bitch at day 25 and confirmed at least an average size litter of around 6 or 7 and she had 9.

Other vets have palpated first and confirmed pregnancy, yet seemed totally unable to get the right area while scanning, until I told them to go higher and I was then told three, way out on numbers.

My current vet is good at palpation, but these days I rarely bother as by five weeks or so I can usually be pretty certain myself, and only really want to know for increasing food and worming regime.

try and find a sheep scanner near to you. far more reliable than a vet ;)

If they can't see anything at this stage I would suspect that she isn't pregnant.

I would say two scans 10 days apart and both negative, then I would take it she wasn't pregnant too.

We got the second opinion and took her to a different vet with (what looked like) a far more sophisticated scanner.  This vet spent approx 25 minutes scanning from every possible angle and did several sweeps and still nothing to be seen :(  That was last Friday so I've now accepted she isn't pregnant.  My question now is, do you think that is conclusive enough that there is absolutely no possibility.  The reason I ask is that my husband wants to take the family away to our place in France for a long weekend over Easter (around the time she would be due).  We usually take the dogs with us but as we will only be going for 3-4 days we are thinking of leaving them with their other family here (our best friends). 

I'm just a little anxious still that she might spring a surprise and have 1 or 2 puppies hiding.  I could cope with that kind of surprise but I'm not sure my friends could and I will be approx 10 hours drive away.  I know safest bet would be to stay home but my daughters are so disappointed she's not pregnant I think they could do with the pick-up.  (Along with me that is!!)

Any advice / suggestions please???