> I think part of the problem now is that there is a greater density and variation of dogs in certain spaces,

This is something I have often thought about, 30/40 years ago there weren't the numbers along with the very different breed types that we now have. Now I'm not necessarily a believer in breed & aggression but with so many different breeds & the GP having little idea of their origin or caring for that matter it doesn't surprise me that there is less tolerance, & although 'all' dogs  should in a perfect world manage to get along many owners don't take this into account when out. It's a silly scenario but some years ago our eldest Basset who is very good with pups, used to meet & was encouraged by the owner to play with a very young miniature dachshund, I was a concerned, he only had to misjudge his paws, so in the end if I saw them we'd walk away. 

>I dish out treats frequently on walks but in particular if there is a person or another dog about. I work with my dogs at a distance where they can see the dog but it is at a far enough distance that they will not immediately dash over to it. I keep the treats coming frequently enough that they stay with me rather than going to see the other dog.

I was told to do this with my first two, and carried on with my next one (now 8 years old). She somehow managed to twist the training round from 'come when you are called, get a treat, then go play again' to 'trail along behind mum constantly begging for treats until she gives in and throws a biscuit to chase'. :-p

Greater variation in breeds and types is also a factor, I believe.

Many who state that dogs will all get along if allowed to run freely tend and tended to be owners of gundogs, pack type terriers, dogs that have formerly been chosen as companions as well as for working because they are generally more easy going both of people and of each other.

Moreover, owners of medium to large breeds are going to be much more at ease about free rough and tumble in a group of dogs than will owners of smaller, more delicate breeds. Again, in my experience, those who advocate free- for-alls tend to own larger/robust breeds. A small breed can be hurt or easily intimidated when playing with a larger breed. Carefully supervised play is one thing and this is what I would view as socialisation, not just letting a group of dogs all run willy nilly together. If they are of a similar size/weight/strength it can work but otherwise, no, not in my view.

Once also has to consider breeds that have been selectively bred to be wary and are not that interested in other dogs and especially anything outside of their immediate family, or dogs with low reaction thresholds- we see these dogs much more frequently than was the case in days of old. Such dogs were formerly kept to do a job and not simply as family companions to be let off to run around the local field or park.

Greater variation in breeds and types is also a factor, I believe.

Extremely true, and you have just described both my breeds. One far too small to be able to be safe around bigger dogs -all it takes is a paw on the back and that back could be broken, and one that has no interest in other dogs or people outside the family. I have absolutely no wish for any of my dogs to play with dogs that don't belong to me so am glad that I very seldom meet any (perhaps once every 3-4 months during walks) but that doesn't mean they are bad around other dogs -we can go to training class or shows and they just ignore other dogs. They have enough friends at home to get to play plenty.

Yes you have to be careful with pups and the smaller breeds but that should never be used as an excuse not to let them mix with other well mannered dogs.
I have kept gundogs and toy breeds together, my large breed gundogs regulary meet up and play happily with a papilon, and a couple of pugs as well as other breeds, they have learned how to play and live with smaller breeds.
Sometimes owners can be over protective, I have seen countless, yorkies, jack russels, westies etc. That have never been socialised, because they are small they have never been allowed to play. The result is very often a dog that snaps at everything is fearful and ends up being brought to training club when it is around 18 months old as the owner is having problems.
I would not let my dogs run round willy nilly or approach unknow dogs especially some breeds, I way up the situation, I look at the owner and though probably not very PC make a judgement if it is safe to let them play or not.
The boxer pup, or young lab, who never gets put in its place by an older calmer dog, and I don't not mean being beaten up (my girl can just do it with a look or her body language) can turn into a pushy, bolshy youngster who is a nuisance to other dogs.

Obviously you need to take care which dogs you allow your dogs to play with, but I firmly beleive that good socialisation through out a dogs life and particulary whilst a youngster pays dividends later.

As a society we are becoming for the most part more insular, people haven't got the time to stop and chat or even the desire to say hello or acknowledge others. Out on a walk with their dog a lot of people just see it as a matter of giving the dog some exercise, and just want to get it over with as quickly as possible, avoiding other dogs and owners.
I can only relate to my own experience which is over a lot of years of dog ownership (various breeds)  being involved with dog training and competing in various disciplines and also having trained and worked with aggressive dogs.
The people we meet on walks, who stop and say hello and their dogs who mix and mingle and can't wait to meet each other, are so much more well balanced and their is never a problem.
It is humans who put their own inhibitions and fears on these poor dogs, that cause the problems.

There are people on here who do not agree with me, and I accept that for health reasons or in special circumstances that allowing a dog off lead may not be an option for them, but please do not stop others from enjoying the pleasure of seeing dogs interacting and playing together.
For breeders on here with  kennels or multiple dogs, you are in a totaly different situation to the average dog owner, you are keeping dogs as a professional dog breeder and your management of those dogs will be different to the average dog owner.
The vast majority of dogs, benefit greatly from good social interaction with other dogs, and if people took the time and made the effort to make sure there dogs had regular play times, there would be far less problem dogs out in public and in rescue centres. 

There are people on here who do not agree with me, and I accept that for health reasons or in special circumstances that allowing a dog off lead may not be an option for them, but please do not stop others from enjoying the pleasure of seeing dogs interacting and playing together.

So we should just accept that badly trained dogs thinks that as soon as they see another dog they can run up to it? That's how your post reads I'm afraid. I for one would not want a dog killed because it was chased into the road by another dog who thought it was a fun game. (That nearly happened to me once, many years ago when a Boxer thought it was great fun to chase my Cocker Spaniel puppy. She ran out of a park and into the road in a blind panic. A dog in a panic cannot listen to a recall.) It doesn't matter how well socialised a dog is, there will always be times they come across a dog of a breed they have never seen before and therefore they MAY feel unsure or scared. I have a Papillon pup that plays with Malinois every day, goes to shows and training classes etc, she loves everyone she meets, dogs and people. The other week she was in the puppy group at a show after winning BP and ended up standing next to a Pug -and freaked out because she had never seen a Pug before and didn't know what to make of it. The Pug wasn't unfriendly at all, it was purely its looks. She was able to settle but had she been outdoors off lead and the Pug had run up to her, I have no doubt she'd have took off in a panic. Likewise one of my Malinois used to get worried if she saw a Saint Bernard at a show -none of them around anywhere else we would go. You cannot prepare for EVERYTHING, it's impossible, so therefore you play safe. Play should not be willy nilly in public areas, running up to another dog should only be allowed if the other dog's owner has agreed.

>So we should just accept that badly trained dogs thinks that as soon as they see another dog they can run up to it? That's how your post reads I'm afraid.

Marianne, you seem to have missed where dorcas said "Obviously you need to take care which dogs you allow your dogs to play with,".

I agree that the majority of dogs benefit from off-lead interaction with others in a way that an owner cannot themselves provide. There are few things more pleasurable (for the dogs involved as well as the owners) as a small cocker spaniel, a medium sized dalmatian and a large flat coated retriever romping freely. ;-)

I remember my Clover's amazement when the 'big dal' she thought she was making friends with at a show tood up and turned into a harlie dane! But she wasn't phased and they were very soon friends, because she was so used to meeting lots of dogs of different shapes, sizes and colours that another new one wasn't scary.

Apologies, I did miss that. I still say the same though- nobody should EVER allow a dog to run up to another without checking with the owner FIRST. Which is what this thread is all about. :)

Dorcas,

I do agree with much of what you say but note a number of points. You talk about your dogs which meet up with other dogs on a regular basis and play with them- they have formed a loose pack and will have learned what goes in their group. As you say, learning to interact with dogs with good manners is the key. But a large, strange dog running at full speed at the uninitiated youngster can give the young one enough of a fright to leave a lasting effect. So much depends on the character of each dog and the reaction of the owner too, but the risks are still there if the dog is naturally shy etc..

You also refer to a whole category of terriers that you have found to be aggressive and you say this is the result of poor socialisation. I rather disagree. Many terriers react before they think and offence is the first defence- so a young terrier that is startled by a huge (in its eyes) animal hurtling towards may, as it is wired to do, go on the offensive and the lesson sticks- who is at fault, the owner of the young terrier, or the person who lets their dog run at it? Look at what Scott at Fuller observed about the aggression and reactivity levels of Fox Terriers compared to other breeds. Working Lakelands used to have a reputation for killing other dogs in kennels. I think it is a case of different strokes and what works for one breed does not necessarily carry over to all breeds.

Yes, owners are often over protective of small dogs, but they are also put in a very difficult situation where snap judgements are made and the owner decides their dog's safety is paramount. If I had a yorkie would I want it interacting off lead with a number of types of dog I see locally..no way. There have been a number of small dogs killed by bull breeds recently- one a yorkie. There's the rub.

I should also say that puppies learn something of how to chastise/discipline other dogs from their mother. There is good research to show that this varies by individual and by breed and that dogs with aggressively disciplinarian mothers often grow up to chastise with equal vim. Not surprisingly I've met a number of very strict terrier mothers- their version of a dressing down may differ significantly from the gentle bitches you describe.

There are some people who just seem determined  to pick up on every little point, the examples I gave were just some of the many small breeds that come to a dog club  and have problems with aggression.

I can't list every breed, but those were the small breed that seem to present with problems most frequently.

My biggest fear is that the anti-dog brigade will have their way and we will have dog control orders everywhere. If that happens there will be even more aggressive dogs.

If you read the original post the owner says that the dog does not rush in but stops and waits and circles the other dog or person. She is evaluating the situation herself, which is pretty normal dog behaviour.

I am not advocating letting aggressive or unruly dogs off lead or dogs that may be a danger to others, the vast majority of dogs I meet are fine.

If you walk in an area where there are lots of aggressive dogs Why do you go there ?  Find somewhere else to walk.
Why would you let a dog off the lead anywhere near a main road ?

Part of being a responsible dog owners is taking responsibility for your own dogs safety, so you let it off lead when it is ready, as I outlined in a previous post.

And regarding dogs freaking at the site of certain breeds, isn't that why we go to training and to ringcraft classes so that they see lots of different breeds.

There are a couple of people I meet on a walk who walk together everyday, he has a Great Dane, and she has a Japanese Chin, in some peoples view that would be far too dangerous, but they get on fine, and also with other dogs that they meet, the chin dosen't even know it is small, it is just treated like a dog and behaves like one.

As for over aggresive mothers, if you know your dog has these tendencies anyone with any sense would not let it near pups. Sometimes we just have to use common sense.

dorcas,

I am sorry if I came across as antagonistic. I am certainly not picking up on points for the sake of it. I feel you have touched on a very important area that is worthy of debate- I disagree to some extent with some of what you say- not your observations but your rationale for some of the things you have observed. But I certainly do not view myself as in the right and I am always open to other views and often persuaded by them. It is in the interests of better understanding that I questioned you more vigorously.

I do agree that the last thing we want is dog control orders. Alas for those of us that live in the city one park is much like another and the same types of dog and owner (those that do not understand or control their dog) are everywhere.

> If you walk in an area where there are lots of aggressive dogs Why do you go there ?  Find somewhere else to walk.
>  Why would you let a dog off the lead anywhere near a main road ?

The dogs don't have to be aggressive, and don't have to be near a main road. Like Goldmali, I have also seen - and heard of - dogs being chased out of parks, also out of fields, and onto roads - sometimes with fatal consequences.

I am not going to go into every possible scenario, if we lived our lives on what may or may not happen, we would never do anything, drive a car, get on a plane, go out at night.

We do the best we can, I pick my times and places drive to areas where in the main there are nice dogs and owners, and avoid certain places that I know are frequented by idiots.
I too live in a city, but if you ask around, speak to other owners at training clubs etc. They will often tell you of nice walks to try.

The RSPCA brought in The Five Freedoms.

One of which is the ability to exhibit natural behaviour.

Natural behaviour for a dog as a pack animal, is being able to interact with others of its own kind, to run and kick up it's heals, sniff whatever  they like and  generaly do what dogs do.

We can either live in fear or just take a leaf out of our dogs book,  enjoy life and if you don't like something, sniff it, pee on it, and walkaway.

This thread has been very interesting to me as I have a German Shepherd who is only just really coming out of this habit.

He has ALWAYS been obsessed with other dogs, ever since a tiny tiny pup he was more interested in other dogs than myself (Even during that stage when everyone says they should be more interested in me than other dogs!)

It really was causing me lots of stress as he didn't get the best of receptions when he was so obviously out of control with excitement when around another dogs. He spent close to six months on longline walks only, and after tons of training I felt he had an almost perfect recall.

About four months back he was approached very viciously by a GR and Lab that would have taken a chunk out of him had I not stood between them. Since this he has been slightly fear reactive when on-lead around off lead dogs. Had your dog came bounding up to me, he'd have made a lot of fuss but never actually bitten. Before this he'd have been the one doing the bounding up- so I am completely sympathetic and to be frank I would have used the opportunity to let Nando have a play with a dog of a similar mindset!

Now I have re-socialised him and he is back on track with other dogs (athough still reactive at times) his recall has gone to pot a little bit as he was only walked off-lead in empty fields whilst I was re-socialising him on lead with other dogs.

I used to get AWFUL reactions when he would bound up to play with other dogs. Given that between him and his best friend (a labradoodle who jumps up on everyone she meets) he STILL gets a bad reaction even when he greets other dogs politely, it is most definitely down to his breed. This thread has given me some really good ideas and the longline and clicker will be coming back out. It would make my walks so much less stressful if I knew he would ignore other dogs. I am very polite on the odd occasion he does run up to other dogs, once he is recalled and on-lead I let him greet the dog nicely, apologise to the owner and explain he is still undergoing some training.

I can fully sympathise with why people would be frightened, he is a 36kg 2ft to shoulder GSD, but I don't think anyone's dog was born with perfect re-call and surely everyone has been in the situation where their dog makes a pest of itself. My local woods is quite friendly and most people know each other so it is not a problem as everyone knows he is unergoing a bit of training.

> I am not going to go into every possible scenario, if we lived our lives on what may or may not happen, we would never do anything, drive a car, get on a plane, go out at night.

But you did question why people would walk dogs near a main road... Some have no choice, and as I said above, even minor roads can have terrible consequences.

>  Natural behaviour for a dog as a pack animal

Recent research suggests that feral dogs (the closest we have to what dogs do when wild - they are not wolves) are not pack animals. They pal up with just one or two friends, which they stick by. Feral dog families are small, the sire may or may not stay around to help with his pups. Even wolf packs, which are larger due to less available resources and the primary need to learn how to hunt which takes a long time, are composed of family members that are related. To suggest that dogs are happier in the company of lots of other dogs, which they may or may not know, and are not related to, is missing an important point. Yes we have created certain breeds that are happy in numbers, but unless they are brought up in that way, I don;t think it relates to pet dogs.

It's not natural for dogs to automatically "get on" with every dog they meet out walking, and it's unrealistic we should expect them to.

Maybe that's this discussion in a nutshell.  

MsTemeraire, you can read and look at as much research as you want. Very often one set of research contradicts another, you have your views and I have mine.


With regard to having no choice but to walk a dog near a main road, everyone has a choice, nobody makes people walk their dog near any sort of road.

The owner is responsible for the dogs safety, and a good owner will go the extra mile and put themselves out for the dog taking it to a more safe environment.

No not every dog will get on with every other dog they meet, agreed but they have a much better chance of growing up into a well adjusted and sociable adult if they are allowed to interact with other dogs. Rather than being restricted and never allowed to even have a sniff at another dog.

> nobody should EVER allow a dog to run up to another without checking with the owner FIRST

what a sad world that would be. Every day my dogs make new friends before I meet the owners. If you call a dog back every time you see another dog on the horizon you will most likely end up with a nervous wreck that has no idea how to greet strange dogs. If you leave dogs to meet other dogs themselves they will 99 out of 100 times get along just fine. If you own an aggressive dog then of course it shouldn't be off lead in an area where normal friendly dogs are walked.

Today for example when out with mine they played with a staffy, a standard poodle, a border collie and 2 jack russells. After meeting all of them a small white scruffy dog appeared and launched straight into a mad game of chase with my youngster. They'd almost tired themselves out before the owner appeared out of breath. No harm done :-) It's not ideal of course that the cockerpoo ran off to play with mine but with time she'll learn. I'd rather she done that than was miserable on her lead not allowed to meet and greet naturally.

> not every dog will get on with every other dog they meet, agreed but they have a much better chance of growing up into a well adjusted and sociable adult if they are allowed to interact with other dogs. Rather than being restricted and never allowed to even have a sniff at another dog.

Completely agree :-)

> With regard to having no choice but to walk a dog near a main road, everyone has a choice, nobody makes people walk their dog near any sort of road.
>
>

I have been sat here trying to think of one single place I could walk my dogs where there are no roads and try as I might I cannot think of one single place. My local park is bordered on 3 sides by a main road and on the fourth by a minor road. 2 of my local fields have minor roads bordering 3 sides and one has a small access road and a dual carriageway bordering it. So your statement really is laughable.

MsT,

I think you make a good point about packs. Coppinger has studied dogs and feral dogs for as long as many of us have been alive and he echoes what you say.

I'm increasingly of the view that different types of dog are a genetic mish mash of degrees of residual wolf behaviour-  some are much more reactive by nature with a strong stranger danger component, others not at all. Some react super fast to potential threats, others much more slowly. In the early months should a 'trigger happy' type dog get a bad fright then I think the lesson sticks, rather like one trial learning.

I think it is Lindsay who suggests that some guarding breeds may wander around on red alert most of the time - they are jumpy. As we know if we are on edge we startle much more easily and react with more intensity.

Of course we want and need dogs to play together and many dogs can learn to get along, but there are breeds and types that are highly reactive by nature- and do not care for animals outside their immediate family (arguably more like a wolf).

In an earlier post I mentioned terrier mothers that chastise their pups more aggressively. The point there was not that people should let these mothers discipline other pups out on walks but that her own progeny will grow up with a more vigorous approach to disciplining and reacting to all dogs. In a nutshell different types of dog will have a different template for what constitutes a proportionate response to irritations or threats- it begins in the nest.  Again, this observation is underpinned by good research.

Finally, I meet many dog owners in the city I live in and all of us share similar views on the problem of dog on dog interaction. When you have seen an offlead mastiff cross run the length of a large park to launch and then latch itself onto the neck of a Rhodesian Ridgeback that is being walked on lead by its owners, it makes you think twice. This is not an isolated incident and there have been similar occurrences in parks for miles around. I too would find it very difficult to walk my dog daily in areas that did not have roads close by. Let us not forget that walking on the street is not hazard free either since some allow their dogs to walk offlead.

> I sometimes wish we could turn the clock back to 'the old days when we didn't have 'issues' if a dog came bouncing merrily towards us or our dogs. There seems to be so many more aggressive dogs around these days, which has I suppose, in part led to an increase in numbers of nervous dogs.

This is exactly why my dogs get lead only walks these days.  Due to the increase of certain breeds, that are generally more adversarial with their own kind, with often owners ignorant in this regard, and the resulting nervousness of strange dogs in other walkers, I no longer can allow my friendly, mostly mind their own business, but not the fastest to recall, dogs off lead due to the effect several of them may have on nervous dogs or walkers.

20 years ago it wasn't an issue at all, just had to take extra care and apologise for any over friendly.wayward juvenile.

The knock on effect is that ALL DOGS are becoming far less socialised with their own kind, compounding the issues.

> Ultimately she has largely grown out of it.  She always comes back eventually (it takes maybe a minute at most).  She is well aware I have sweeties, she knows she gets one now for a good recall, sometimes for checking in and maybe for a not so good recall.  Ultimately if I am somewhere I need to have a spot on recall and she needs to be under total control she is leaded up.

Sounds exactly like my lot, by two their interest is not so much other dogs but just being nosey about what's through that gap, or what's that smell, so recall can be 'wait a minute Mum'

Life is more complicated today generally, so it is not really surprising I suppose, that dog owning is more complicated too!

I am fortunate to live in a moorland/coastal area, where my greatest hazard with free exercise for my girls, is to make sure there are no sheep in the vicinity. I do feel so sorry for those who have little choice over where to exercise their dogs,  it must be a constant worry, particularly with some of the aggressive dogs that appear to be on the increase. I know when I am visiting my family in the South East, I am very careful about the dogs I allow mine to interact with. As others have said, there are far more dogs of a greater number of breeds than 30-40 years ago, much as I would like it to be as it was, it can't be :)

While I broadly agree with both Dorcas and Chaumsong about the need for interaction, it is obvious everyone has to do what is best for their dogs, in their own circumstances.  There is no size fits all. It is important to train our dogs for recall so we can keep them safe- the single most valuable command we use- a life saver. I use a whistle for pups from an early age, with their feeds and I find this works well.  Through out their lives I continue to reinforce with rewards whilst out and about.   I am sure however much we try though, sometimes our dogs will decide to embarrass us, but that's dog owning! :)   (A general comment, not in reply to a particular poster)

The knock on effect is that ALL DOGS are becoming far less socialised with their own kind, compounding the issues.

I totally agree with you- it's very sad :(

>The knock on effect is that ALL DOGS are becoming far less socialised with their own kind, compounding the issues.

And the humans, too, become less tolerant and more reactive.

That is true and I feel that there are too many dog owners that simply don't know how to handle a dog.

Only today I watched a woman with an adult labrador type dog in the park. The dog had run ahead offlead towards an older woman wheeling a toddler in a pram, growling as she went. The dog circled the woman and continued to growl, hackles up. The owner called many times and the dog ignored her, when it finally went back to the owner she patted it, apologised to the woman and said "she's never done that before". I then watched as the woman let the dog offlead again, the dog proceeded to circle a man walking along minding his own business, growling and staring at him hackles up. The man looked intimidated but continued and the dog moved on, meanwhile the dog meted out the same treatment to two more people, one another woman with her child. The owner walked on seemingly oblivious.

So possibly another six additions to the anti-dog brigade-caused by one woman's ignorant behaviour! :(

What a shame.  I do think that a lot of people, dog owners included have no ability to read an animals body language these days.  When I had my somewhat reactive collie I was on the ball and if we were approaching another dog and his head dropped he would be called in, distracted and leaded up.  No questions.  Most of his reactivity was fear and generally worse if he was on a lead but I could spot his warning signs a mile away and would get his attention back to me. 

Today for instance I met a lady with a baby beagle on a flexi.  My beagle is lovely with everyone but my springer is not great with puppies, she would not attack but they worry her and she will certainly shout at one.  I therefore try to keep her away as you really don't want them having a bad experience as babies and I don't really want my girl pushed to her limits.  I mentioned this a couple of times to the lady with the beagle but she continually allowed her pup to get in my girls face (only so much I can do on a normal lead when the pup is on a flexi)  In the end I let my girl off so she could do her own thing but for those few moments there was a lot of unhappy body language from my girl which the puppy(naturally) and owner were totally oblivious to. 

I have two cousins who have no idea how to approach animals and I am continually amazed by the number of children, not teeny tinies, who want to hug my dogs but then leap up and snatch away their hands squealing because the dog backs off and wants a sniff first.

I suppose as I grew up in the countryside (and in a village so backward it was like a 1950s childhood) I have had an advantage but it amazes me the lack of knowledge and any common sense anyone has now.

And Barbara, I guess a hound is a hound is a hound

Tectona Please can you tell me a bit more about food circuits?  I had a look on youtube and there was a video showing a black pup and handler was throwing the treat out in front of her, recalling back round her legs to a sit.  Does this teach recall or to be more focussed on the handler?  I have read and reread this tread over and over again and taking in all the suggestions and comments.  I have ordered a green friendly collar and when it arrives she'll be wearing it on every walk.

I'm at work today my daughter and husband are both off and took her for a four mile walk round the forest.  Her recall was perfect all of the walk, they clipped her up before bends or corners they couldn't see arount to make sure there were no dogs.  When they saw a dog they got her back before she noticed until the very end of the walk.  Out of nowhere a lady appeared with three springers and two JR's all off lead (and well trained!!) our girl just lost the plot galloped off over to them and when they crossed the track and back into the thick of the forest she went with them.  My daugher says she called, whistled and walked in the opposite direction but our dog ignored her, the lady didn't look overly happy but continued to walk with her dogs and ours eventually came back.  I imagine the incident was three or four minutes but it seemed like forever to them.  When she came back she sat for a treat, got one and was clipped up as they were at the gate and ready to leave.  In the past when training recall I had one episode where it took me 45 minutes to clip her up, she always came to within a few feet and just galloped about me laughing (I swear she was) and plenty of 1/2 hour ones, so there is improvement from the bad old days, now she returns in an instant.

So in cases like today, when she finally returned she got a treat, are we rewarding the eventual return? or the bad behaviour? I am really confused, I don't want to scold her for raking off in case it puts her off coming back!!  Should my daughter have walked over to the lady and tried to retreive her?  It was quite a distance away, I'm not sure if she would have come back any quicker or just zoomed around avoiding clipping up and winding the other dogs up even more, at least when on her own she probably realised she had to get back to them and eventually did.

My daugher is 20 and walks her a lot and is responsible for the success of her recall (for what it is :( )

Edited to add that we have arranged a walk on Sunday with a friend and his labrador who doesn't tolerate ill mannered kids and will warn her if she messes with him.

You and your family are obviously trying so hard with your girl. I had to smile when you said you swear she laughs at you- I think she would fit in beautifully with Flatcoats!! I have to say if your dog came bounding up to my girls, a wonderful game would ensue! She sounds lovely and I would want to take her home with me.  :)

With the beagle, who is older and knows better.  I will always always 100% reward for a "lead on" I reward good recalls but not every recall.  I don't scold, I have tried and it does not make a blind bit of difference.  In the sort of thing you describe I would not have rewarded her for coming back as such but would have made her do something more for it, a sit, a down, depending on how much under control I thought she was maybe a wait.  So she gets a reward for something good.  If I was doing a lead on I might down her first, she auto sits on recall.  But no treats will even appear until she has either worked for it or gone lead on.

If I think she would let me I would walk over and get her if she was molesting another dog or being a nuisance, with the beagle it is more likely now she has found some food and will come anyway when it is gone.  If I met you, and you were calling her while mine were off lead I would call them and get them stationary to give you the best chance I could.  If you just stood and shouted I would get a bit ticked off that I was trying to help you and you weren't retrieving your dog.  I would not just walk off as Lola has on occasion just tittled off with a "new mummy" and they have had to bring her back!

I could never get the hang of the food circuit but it does seem like it will help and I think the lab will help a lot :D

    > nobody should EVER allow a dog to run up to another without checking with the owner FIRST

what a sad world that would be.

You spelt that wrong. It's not S-A-D; it is S-A-F-E. Ask Drover.....

Oh please don't bring such a tragic event into your argument :-(

I'm sure millions of dogs play safely with strange dogs every day. Unfortunately accidents happen every day too, like our mutual friends young dog who tragically ran into a branch, you can't stop dogs running in case that happens can you. It's all about risk assessment versus quality of life.

I think your use of this very recent tragic posting, is neither appropriate or worthy of your excellent communication skills. :( Sorry just how I feel. (For Goldmali)

>  If I met you, and you were calling her while mine were off lead I would call them and get them stationary to give you the best chance I could.

This is what i do, too, and I leash Linc if necessary as I know he's likely to get a bit giddy.

But the whole charging off to other dogs thing is why I reward mine for looking at dogs to start with and build on that - it turns the dogs themselves into a recall cue and makes my job 100% easier than trying to just recall a dog who really wants to go and play.  It means that they are turning and coming back before I have to say anything - and as they are invariably quicker than me it makes it a lot easier than trying to get the recall cue in before they start running!

Great advice Nikita.

I've arrived late on this thread but wish I could give maximum thumbs up to your post Chaumsong -is there a way to do so on this forum ?

Far too many dog owners regard interaction between dogs on walks as something to be avoided at all costs. I call it Dog Owner Rage Syndrome. We are  fortunate in the UK to have so many opportunities for dogs to exercise off lead . Sadly this happy situation is at risk of being lost for ever on account of over protective and controlling dog owners  -akin to 'helicopter parenting' ,I suppose. I stop and talk to ,or at least acknowledge, everyone I meet whilst out with my guys. I reckon it teaches them that humans and their dogs are good . I also tolerate other dogs running up to us to say hello. My two boys are super friendly and do the same but...we often get nasty /aggressive responses to this. What kind of message does that give to their dogs ? Pretty negative I'd say. Of course, there are breeds that I am wary of ( mine are renowned for conviviality) so let's be sensible about this and expect owners of breeds /dogs less amiable to be cautious and if in doubt keep them under control . If this negativity around normal doggie desire to meet and greet is taken up by the anti dog lobby, we may well find ourselves in the situation that exists in some countries and all dogs will have to be on lead and muzzled in public places, including forests and countryside.

Wish there was a like button for your post Jan !!!

>If this negativity around normal doggie desire to meet and greet is taken up by the anti dog lobby, we may well find ourselves in the situation that exists in some countries and all dogs will have to be on lead and muzzled in public places, including forests and countryside.
> so let's be sensible about this and expect owners of breeds /dogs less amiable to be cautious and if in doubt keep them under control

It would be best if ALL dogs were kept under control. Dogs can interact with other dogs, without being allowed to rush up to every dog they see.

My dog is allowed to interact with anyother dog we meet IF the owner of that dog is OK with it, but the initial greeting is done on-lead. One never knows how 2 dogs will react to each other and looking at a dog from a distance only gives us a clue, not the entire picture.

So far my dog has never reacted badly to even ill-mannered dogs, but we have met more than our fair share of dogs that have reacted badly to him - to which thier owners have been suprised about as thier dog has 'always been friendly'.

>we often get nasty /aggressive responses to this

Have you ever asked why the owners are so furious?
In the space of only 6 months I have met 2 different dog owners that I would have thought would be exceptionally niffed off with a dog rushing up to thier dogs, whatever the breed. These owners both have had friendly dogs, one was recovering from heart problems, the other had only a few weeks left to live as she was dying of cancer and riddled with arthritis, and despite enjoyng her slow walk, she needed to be left alone, free from the harrasment of other dogs.

Really, keeping a dog leashed untill one has at least chatted to the other dog owner is simple manners and it's lack of these manners that feul the anti-dog brigade. Keeping a dog leashed untill the other dogs owner has been spoken to does not stop dog:dog socialisation atall. In fact, forget the dogs in the equation, showing this sort of respect for other PEOPLE is a social skill that makes it easier for other people to be tollerant back. Respect is a 2 way street.

Mastifflover, I can't see your logic.
If I had a dog that had a heart condition or was dying from cancer or had aggressive tendencies NO WAY would I even contemplate taking it to an area where I know dogs are regularly off lead.

As an owner it is up to us to protect our dogs. No point getting annoyed with other dog owners, that person put her sick dogs at risk, which to me is negligent in the extreme.

In an ideal world every owner would have a well trained dog that comes back immediately, but that is never going to happen.

I have an old lady here, but I would not put her in a situation where she was likely to be bumped or harrassed.

Comes down to who the walk is for the dog or the owner !!  And using a bit of good old fashioned commonsense.

> If I had a dog that had a heart condition or was dying from cancer or had aggressive tendencies NO WAY would I even contemplate taking it to an area where I know dogs are regularly off lead.

Sadly it's not always possible to arrange this - sometimes a short delay (as against one's usual time) in getting to a super-quiet walk place can result in coming across an unexpected number of dogs.  Or someone else with a reactive or bouncy dog, or a commercial dog-walker, may have discovered one's "secret" quiet walk.  Or the landowners may be working it, or have suddenly put sheep or cattle on it.  If owners of out of control dogs would show a little politeness and understanding, even very old or sick dogs could enjoy the sunshine and smells of a favourite walk, instead of being restricted to their garden.

Good old-fashioned commonsense works both ways.

> As an owner it is up to us to protect our dogs. No point getting annoyed with other dog owners, that person put her sick dogs at risk, which to me is negligent in the extreme.

That's a good point. Where I live there are playing fields with signs on all the gates asking owners to keep their dogs on leads. Seems reasonable to me as there are open fields with public footpaths across a mere matter of 5 minutes away - through the playing fields in fact. So the playing fields ought to be a safe space to take our oldies, young pups being trained, and even one who's not quite steady on his feet any more. Except that hardly anyone pays any attention to the signs and just let their dogs off anyway. I've had oldies chased, pups frightened and an infirm dog knocked clean off his feet before now. And all because their owners can't respect local rules, or indeed the rights of others.

So sometimes we might think we're protecting our dogs, but unfortunately our efforts are not good enough due to the selfishness of others.

> If owners of out of control dogs would show a little politeness and understanding, even very old or sick dogs could enjoy the sunshine and smells of a favourite walk, instead of being restricted to their garden.

I couldn't agree more. It's a very lucky owner indeed who can live somewhere where people are considerate of one another.

If I sound a little jaundiced, it's probably because I've just come in from a late walk. I was actually in the village beside the main road when some bloke came out of the pub with his springer not on a lead. It ran up to my toy dogs and goosed them repeatedly. They were very good but didn't like it much. I asked the owner politely to put it on its lead. He said " he's never been on a lead for the past 10 years and if you don't like it darling you can f**k off!!"

ML,

I agree with you. Aside from anything else we have a much wider range of breeds today and some of them are much less dog orientated, they may be more aloof, have high prey drive or are more likely to bolt off and not come back at all. It is often advised that these types of dog should be walked on a lead. I'm afraid that these dog owners are as likely to use the local parks as anyone else and that is not going to change. Moreover, dogs that bound up to other dogs are one thing, but a number of super friendly dogs also like to bound up to people and to children and, sadly, there are growing numbers of park users that do not like this and do object if the dog cannot be called back.

I have to disagree mastifflover. There are so many places where dogs/owners can exercise without the 'risk' of encountering  off lead dogs. I would not take my guys  off lead to a dog control area ( parks ,recreation grounds etc) for the simple reason that I expect such areas to be the domain  of those dogs/owners who require a more controlled environment, for whatever reason .A couple of weeks ago, I was returning to the forest car park with some of my dogs. We'd had a lovely walk, meeting lots of  friendly dogs and owners and all seemed well with the world . The path to the parking area is narrow so we were in single file. I'd put two on the lead , only because they tend to play a silly game of refusing to get into the car until I've gone through a ridiculous theatre of pretending to drive off without them should they refuse to get into the car.  Please do not ask for the script of this drama , sufficient to say that it is in three acts and involves a great deal of mime and absurd phraseology . Anyway, I noticed that a small dark dog was interacting with the guys that were ahead of me -it was really muddy so I was going quite slowly. There was much tailwagging and I had no cause for concern until...the owner of small dark dog suddenly pulled him/her to the side and together with her partner started fussing over him/her . Still, I thought no more until she started yelling that my dogs were distressing hers and demanded that I put my guys on the lead. Naturally I refused. There had been no problem , only her perceived threat of dogs off lead. Little  doggie had been fine. I pointed this out to her but added that if she  has a problem with dogs off lead she should stick to walking hers in dog control areas. I actually felt rather angry that she should make such demands and told her that she was making her dog nervous by such behaviour . It spoiled my walk, I do not enjoy  negative interactions. Happily, however, I have not seen her since. The point I'm trying to make is clear . We have freedom of choice where we walk of dogs. Common sense  should prevail.

I agree Jan, and you or spot on about owners and fear of other dogs.
Your post reminded me of when I was running a KC Good Citizen puppy foundation course, part of the course involved socialisation with an adult dog.
A fellow trainer used to bring in to the class her GSD, who was so calm and just loved puppies. We particulary chose him for the role because of his lovely demeanour, but also his sheer size, for a GSD he was huge and his lovely thick coat made him look even bigger.
In some classes you would see puppy owners shrink back in fear as soon as he entered the room, and some were really unhappy about either them or their pup meeting him.
If owners are frightened of large dogs themselves they very often pass on these fears to their dogs, so we felt that it was very important to try and persuade the owners to meet this gentle giant, and with some owners it took a lot of persuasion and encouragement on our part to get them to even come near him.
He was such a brilliant ambadassador for his breed and for dogs in general, completely non confrontational he was just a big lump, but so obedient. Over the years I knew him he helped so many dogs that came to training just by his sheer calm presence.
Sadly he went over rainbow bridge a couple of years ago, and he is still very much missed by everyone who knew him.
Funny how what someone says makes you think of something, so thanks Jan for triggering a memory, of a lovely old boy.

In my part of the world you'd have to go a very long way to find somewhere to exercise dogs where there were no off lead dogs, I've never known this to be the case. It is not unusual to find dog walked off lead on the streets, let alone the parks. The other day I was confronted with an intact, off lead rottie dog, walking ahead of its owner on a public street. I own an intact male and did not fancy a nose to nose meeting, so I simply crossed the road and hoped the other dog would not follow. These sorts of encounter are not rare.

> The other day I was confronted with an intact, off lead rottie dog, walking ahead of its owner on a public street.

This is my pet hate (it endangers the dogs and also drivers) and thankfully quite rare here.

This needs reporting as dogs are required to be on lead on a public highway.  we have notices in both council areas (i live on the border of two counties) and both have notices up about the size of the fine, in one it's up to £200 and the other up to £500.

Brainless, you should have seen the owner. One tries not to make snap judgements but the dog's body language and its owner's body language spelled out walk the other way and avoid.

I have tried reporting these incidents but there is little interest. No police or community wardens in sight. Most recently it is the middle aged lady with a rambunctious off lead gun dog of some kind that is most likely to be targeted by parkies and told to put their dog on a lead- even though the dog is clearly harmless and there are no dog control orders round my way- as yet. They never seem to approach certain other types of owner.

However, complaints are mounting about these 'friendly' dogs who also bound over to people and children. Owners view it as a right to walk their dog in any part of the park off lead because their dog is harmless. However, those who actively dislike dogs see no reason why, as tax payers, they should be excluded from the park and are calling for control orders asap. This is a growing issue and I see control orders on the horizon though many of us have fought them.

> dogs are required to be on lead on a public highway.

I said this to a man I met only yesterday whose off-lead dog was bothering mine on the pavement by the main road. He just gave me some abuse. And yes, I suppose I could report him, though I don't know who he is - he was just some guy who came out of one of the pubs. Never seen him before, hope I don't see him again!