I don't - and neither do all these people...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08WnAagOPb0

:-)

Not able to view, you need to log in with a password.

Same here.  :-(

But no Nikita, I don't find it necessary.

I have a pack leader, or at least she and quite a few others think she is.
This little girl, at 7 kg, can get a grown man up from watching the FA cup final to get her a fish twist.....

It seems to be a private video only :(

Not to worry. I had a great quote in my FB news feed this morning, via a dog behaviourist I follow, from Professor Daniel Mills [Lincoln University] who spoke at the recent WOOF conference in the UK attended by behaviourists from all over the world.

"Dominance has been confused in the popular literature. Leadership is not enforced. If you don't follow me, I don't beat you up for it. The way you are a leader is through your friendship, not force."

> The way you are a leader is through your friendship, not force."

Phew!  Does that mean it is OK to be the leader again? :)

Professor Mills is excellent. :)

Oh pants :(  I've just shared it so can't change the settings.

For those who can't view it - it was filmed by TheDogHouse (the guys responsible for the videos on choke chains (where the chain gets thrown into the gulley behind) and e-collars (smashing the collar with a mallet as the correct way to use it!)) at the WOOF training and behaviour conference.  It's trainers and behaviourists from around the world introducing themselves and saying "I don't need to be a pack leader."  Lots of well-known faces there - Grisha Stewart, Sarah Whitehead, Chirag Patel, to name but a few.

:-)

> "Dominance has been confused in the popular literature. Leadership is not enforced. If you don't follow me, I don't beat you up for it. The way you are a leader is through your friendship, not force.

Great quote :)

I think that dogs do benefit from having a 'leader', but not in a 'dominance' way. A good 'leader' will lead by example, being patient, kind, understanding and consistent, they inspire confidence, can motivate and bring out the best in their 'followers'. I think too many people automatically switch the meaning of 'leader' with 'dominator'.

The following is from wiki, but it seems that the good ole' 'well done have a tid-bit' - is becoming more popular in human:human 'leadership' :)
"The use of positive reinforcement is a successful and growing technique used by leaders to motivate and attain desired behaviors from subordinates. Organizations such as Frito-Lay, 3M, Goodrich, Michigan Bell, and Emery Air Freight have all used reinforcement to increase productivity.[27] Empirical research covering the last 20 years suggests that reinforcement theory has a 17 percent increase in performance. Additionally, many reinforcement techniques such as the use of praise are inexpensive, providing higher performance for lower costs."

I think in away yes you do need to be the leader with your dogs to have a well balanced house hold- especially if you have multiple dogs.
I have had 6 dogs at once 3 of each sex - They listened pretty good to us- wouldn't say like soldiers or anything lol my crew don't act like no
soldier now. They eat when I say- I put their food down and tell them ok, basic obedience ect- not allowed on furniture unless I say which is practically never. I no but I don't allow
the dogs up- but they all have a lil bed by our feet where we snuggle. My dogs don't challenge us because what we say goes- I can remove
food (I feed raw), bones what ever if I need to with out a problem- I usually use a treat or toy so they get something in return if I need to take it away.
When they are eating they have no problem with our face by theirs as if we are gonna share- or putting our hand in their food. The Boston's can share
no problem with each other- Moose well she won't share with the boston's- but she has no problem sharing the boston's food lol I feed her at the other
end of the kitchen. A lot is patience and repetition with good outcome- dog gets bored you stop on a happy note so to speak. I think they are a lot like children
they need structure and guidance so to speak. Wouldn't let our kids get away with stuff the same with our dogs :-)

It's the wording of it that's important - "I don't need to be a pack leader" - i.e. the connotations of dominance, pack theory, alpha and so on.

I do agree that dogs need guidance, and I prefer the term mentor or guardian for people and within my own dogs, Opi is the matriarch - it's a much more accurate term I think.  She takes care of everyone, checks on anyone who's hurt or feeling a bit off, if there are handbags then she steps in calmly to stop it and checks on both dogs both to tick them off for doing it and to make sure they're ok.

I very deliberately do not use the word 'leader' because of the popular meanings attributed to it - the same reason I am careful with how I explain why you shouldn't tell a dog off for growling (e.g. a trainer I know is a PITA for phrasing it "you're giving them attention for it" which instantly makes people think the dog is trying to get one over on them and they get angry, when what she means is that they are adding stress so making the situation worse - same meaning, totally different connotations and the first meaning can be very damaging and I see the same with using the word 'leader').

Opi is the matriarch - it's a much more accurate term I think.  She takes care of everyone, checks on anyone who's hurt or feeling a bit off, if there are handbags then she steps in calmly to stop it and checks on both dogs both to tick them off for doing it and to make sure they're ok.

Exactly as it should be, :-)

We are not part of the pack, we are an authority figure different from a pack leader, a species a dog will adhere to because we are more intelligent. (Apparently :-) ) And dogs know which side their bread is buttered, we make a good combination and both species earn respect from one another.

It makes me laugh when people go on about being part of the pack and the alpha of course we are not, an alpha has risen to that status due to it's braun and or intelligence, it is an alpha for many reasons including protecting territory, but the main and most important role of an alpha's purpose is for breeding rights and the continuation of the species, something we absolutely can never fulfill, just because many of our dogs are neutered does not take away the dynamics of what a pack really is about, no dog ever sees us as an alpha, we plain and simply are not dogs.

Pack leader is a term very wrongly worded, we can never be that.

I also find it strange that we live with many animals often with herds of cows, sheep, horses, goats, pigs, cats, rabbits, guinea-pigs, mice, rats, dophins......... the list goes on we train them and often have a 'family' of these too, but we never hear anyone saying we are 'pack', alphas or leaders to any other species but the dog?

The dog is no different, we are but carers, trainers, friends (hopefully) to them and in return they give us the same respect as any other animal would.

All it took was that single, very flawed wolf study . . . who would have thought it would have rooted so strongly?  (Mind you - the edict to never feed chicken bones to dogs is also extremely widespread)

I was once told by a lecturer on my degree course (who has an MSc in Animal Behaviour) that when facing ANY animal (I believe we were discussing zoos at the time), you must not back down from it or it will think it is dominant over you.
This particular lecturer has said many questionable things over the years but I didn't even know how to respond to that one!

Seriously, if I am facing a lion from outside a zoo enclosure he can have all the dominance he wants!

As for dominance and dogs knowing we are superior I have no desire to be dominant and no need to be.  Regarding superiority, well anyone who thinks that my dogs depend on me for food has not met Lola, she can open doors, open the food bin, open food bags.  I am pretty sure that if she had the opportunity she would manage to drive the car lol!

> I also find it strange that we live with many animals often with herds of cows, sheep, horses, goats, pigs, cats, rabbits, guinea-pigs, mice, rats, dophins......... the list goes on we train them and often have a 'family' of these too, but we never hear anyone saying we are 'pack', alphas or leaders to any other species but the dog?

Actually, and it pains me to say it, although I've not heard anyone say about being pack leader to other species I have many times heard people talk about how you need to be "dominant over" a pet - horses, rats, and cats mainly (rats especially for some reason) but people have applied it to all manner of animals.  The mind boggles!

> All it took was that single, very flawed wolf study . . . who would have thought it would have rooted so strongly?  (Mind you - the edict to never feed chicken bones to dogs is also extremely widespread)

Amazing isn't it?  So much cr@p, so much misinformation and so much damage done to so many dogs, and all from one study.  What really irks me about it though is that the people who did the study have said they got it wrong - but nobody listens to them now!

Roxylola - Linc is the same!  Yesterday he opened both the fridge and freezer doors at different times because he was bored.  Didn't take anything mind, just wanted to see what was there!

> anyone who thinks that my dogs depend on me for food has not met Lola, she can open doors, open the food bin, open food bags

LOL!  :-)  :-)

> I was once told by a lecturer on my degree course (who has an MSc in Animal Behaviour) that when facing ANY animal (I believe we were discussing zoos at the time), you must not back down from it or it will think it is dominant over you.

There is some truth to this, state of mind is a major factor when dealing with animals, they are much more tuned-in to subtle signals/body language that portray our emotional state than we do - act like a victim=be a victim, act like you are up for a challange=you can elicit challenging behaviour, act nervous and it will effect the animals behaviour, act like you are in calm control & you have the best chance of actually being in control.

It's not about the animal 'dominating' you as such, it's more of a case that animals (and humans) can imediately suss out what they can & can't get away with and alter thier behaviour accordingly. I suppose it comes from basic instincts? A predator needs to suss out the safest/easiest prey, prey species need to able to suss out the highest risk animals to be aware of/avoid. Even us as humas do it in todays 'civilised' society, for example bullies generally automatically know which people they can pick on.

Dogs have been bred to live along side man and are fantastic and reading us, they are capable of reading us in ways that even other primates can not do.
Most people will readily accept that our dogs can react to our moods - we are sad and depressed, they may appear to offer comfort, we are happy/excited the dog can get playfull, yet people find it impossible to believe that a dog can tell the difference between a calm, confidant mood or a panicky/uncertain/frightened mood...........
It's only when I got Buster that I really understood how much one's state of mind and one's own beahviour can make such a huge differnce to the dogs behaviour. I used to be afraid of the dark, if I walked Buster at night time he'd act all protective of me. I've forced myself to not be afraid of the dark and can now walk him at night without him being all guardy (there has been no difference in how I hold his lead). He can alter his behaviour according to how I feel, whilst outside, at night and not even looking at me - dogs are fab at reading us.

Jeangenie you should try living with her!  I don't own her, it's a sort of coop with mutual benefits.  She gets regular meals, a cosy warm bed, regular walks, a centrally heated home, a buddy because she was lonely, toys that she doesn't play with, a personalised collar and lead she ate, and occasionally if she is really stealthy she finds some leftovers she should not be eating!  Meanwhile I get the benefit of her tolerating me stroking her, she kindly allows me to share the sofa and generally does not show me up too much in front of family, friends and total strangers by coming back after a maximum of 10 minutes calling when we are out on walks! :D

>Jeangenie .....

??

I think R&l meant me :-)

She does sound much like Linc lol!  Although he does occasionally utterly show me up.  The other day in fact he decided was a good day to completely forget his 'leave' and the work we've put in for his behaviour around the kids' frog bins at the park, and try so hard to reach the rubbish in one that his front feet were off the ground and his head completely inside the flipping thing.  And all this in front of some old dog training clients!

Sorry, JeanSW - she lol'ed at my Lola! ;)

And Lola's leave only applies when I am in reach, otherwise it's every man for himself!

Cheers Nikita!
I'm loving this ~ The poster is doing the rounds on Facebook (finally a 'pass it on' that I'm happy to share!!)
The poster is great, I down loaded it from Jean Donaldson ( won't name the CD'er who asked me who Jean was!! ;0D... For shhhhhhhhhhame!) lots of the big names are posting it now too.
     I just need to fill in my details and put it up on my wall.Meantime I'm loving seeing it gather momentum and more and more friends posting it!

Viva la Revolution!
Get thee behind me Milan!!!!! :-D

I've seen JD's poster too, got to sort my copy out to post :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bHsVAd1cwM

> I don't - and neither do all these people...

This link works, for those who couldn't access Nikita's link

Ms T, thank you.

Horses never lie -the heart of passive leadership by Mark Rashid is an absolutely excellent book on this subject. It challenges the whole idea that you have to be the alpha to work with horses. It's written as a series of stories and experiences he has had and is really enjoyable and informative read.

Well, I need more than that to show people WHY they don't need to be a pack leader.  I recognised several names, none from Canada, but I think the folks at another board I go to, the ones who are newbie's to dogs, pets, and training, as well as to the boards, would find that of no help at all.

Off to google up the DogHouse.

Oh, FWIW, a Canadian I do like to read is Dr. Ed Bailey, an Animal Behaviourist with a special interest in dogs ( his words) who seems to espouse much the same idea.

Not sure if Jean Donaldson was on there or not, but she's Canadian and supports this - and I'd be surprised if you hadn't heard of her! :)

Hmmm, I don't remember if she was on or not but she lives in the U.S. now and has for some time so if she was there I probably didn't count her.  Don't worry though, I don't need to have any of them live here for me to appreciate them.  It's just I kind of wish those ideas had more presence here.