Sorry for the long title but not really sure how to put this.  Our two year old standard poodle has perfect recall (eventually, been a long hard slog) providing she is in an area with no other people or dogs.  We can certainly manage this a few times a week, we are surrounded by beaches and forest.  If she does see another dog or person on the horizon she takes off a break neck speed aiming at the dog but in the last few strides she circles the dog or person (or both) and comes galloping back.  This must look scary to the person on the receiving end, I know she won't touch them but they don't and this is causing my husband and I so much stress that we are reluctant to let her off the lead even in quiet places.

My question is, if you were the person walking quietly on your own or with your dogs and you saw a big black dog galloping towards you would you panic?  I think I probably would, we do shout that she'll not touch you but everyone who has been bitten or knocked over by a large dog will have heard that before (she won't do either). 

When she is off the lead we do lots of recall, she comes back for treats and wants to be with us UNTIL she sees another person on dog.  Our previous standard was a bit like this too but didn't gallop the length of a beach or forest track, this one does and she is trained on recall with whistle as she simply would not hear us. Our last one grew out of it by the time she was 5/6

Any advice would be greatly received and please tell me if you'd be shocked, scared or annoyed if you saw her coming at you.

Thanks :)

When I still free ran my lot I would teach them the steady command, and the walk on. 

At least once beyond the point of stopping them moving in that direction you can get them to slow down to a walk, it will show some control and not be so worrying.

It is also not as exciting as a buzz pass at speed, and gives you a chance to reach them more quickly to fully regain control.

Have you been in the habit of not allowing her to greet other dogs, see dog, clip on lead and walk on by.

It might pay to go back on long line and when she spots another dog ask if she can come and greet, and make this a controlled greeting.

This way she may not feel she has to try and get to them before you spoil her chance of greeting/having fun.

I wouldn't panic, but one of my dogs would give the incoming dog one hell of a thumping. And I wouldn't be very happy about it either.

Any advice would be greatly received and please tell me if you'd be shocked, scared or annoyed if you saw her coming at you

No, I wouldn't be worried at all by your breed. :-) I know that is very complacent but I just wouldn't be especially as it is the usual gallop over and then circle and run back, granted some people may not be sure whether it is a race over to attack. But, in saying that you can't let it go on as someone may be scared and worse if another dog takes offence, that unfortunately is when she will learn her most valuable lesson, no doubt much sooner if she were a male, you cannot leave her open to potentially being attacked.

Unfortunately, it is difficult with many friendly dogs to stop this behaviour until they fully mature, it is why you have to be extra vigilant and recall before she sees a person or another dog, we usually have the advantage point being taller at spotting things first that along with dogs noses usually being on the ground. :-D

I've always involved playing and retrieve games out on walks to keep any dog on me and not looking for other things to do, if on the beach that can involve you running along in zigzags and circles to stop her always looking ahead and being able to get that sprint on before you have time to pop her on a long line. A long line still gives her the freedom to meet and greet under supervision and the freedom to move around unlike a lead.

You need to have one with you at this stage, so continue with the training, play games to occupy her and keep vigilant recalling on sight of someone/dog and putting her on the long line, soon enough she'll learn not to sprint at others and to stay with you as she matures even more. :-)

> if you'd be shocked, scared or annoyed if you saw her coming at you

What colour is she ?? Both my dogs are wary of large, black dogs - particularly if they rush at them :( Tara would have no hesitation at barking and, possibly, 'telling her off' - if she was on the lead she would be even more wary :( It's a shame because Bramble used to be very friendly with two black, standard poodles, but, after another pair of black GSDs (who were badly managed and aggressive) terrorised our local walking field for a while, he became very nervous of big, black dogs :(

I wouldn't be worried at all, particularly of the breed :) 

Well she hasn't got a perfect recall, because a perfect recall means she will come no matter what distractions. :) I'd work on it with a long line around distractions, as has already been mentioned. Are the treats you use good enough? Totally irresistible like cooked liver or chicken or similar? Or is there a toy she is nuts about that means more than other dogs?

A Standard Poodle running towards me would not worry me at all, but I too have dogs (two at any rate) that really do not like black dogs and would freak out if one arrived at speed and ALL my Malinois would definitely go for a dog that ran up to them without good doggy manners (a dog NOT running all the way up to them, or that stopped a few feet away and wagged its tail they'd ignore), so if she was mine my big worry would be her getting bitten.

Thanks, I'll answer all the questions first.

Have you been in the habit of not allowing her to greet other dogs, see dog, clip on lead and walk on by. Sadly no, the first few months she was with us she was great then I was ill for about a year and my husband did most of the walking and he walked her in the forest and didn't let her greet any dog she met, he would stand back with her and let them past, he's not really doggy and doesn't relish the long conversations with other dog owners and Std Poodles are very excitable for the first 4/5 years!  So now when she sees a dog on the lead she pulls, rears onto her hind legs and wags her tail like mad, lately she has added barking to this scenario.

What colour is she ?? BLACK!! the worse colour as I am sure other dogs don't read her body language as well.

Are the treats you use good enough? Yes, we have special treats for recall, and we change them when she shows any sign of being bored with them.

Or is there a toy she is nuts about that means more than other dogs? Nothing means more than other dogs :(  I carry a squeak ball and she goes nuts for it but not if she sees a dog :(

Carrington your suggestions are very good.  My husband and I always walk her together, I am unsteady on my feet and can't risk her pulling me over so if we see a dog and she is on the lead he has to take her.  We do watch the horizon all the time for other people and dogs, if we see one she is immediately recalled with the squeaky ball and hooked up.

Daisy and Goldmaili There is part of me that wants her to meet a dog that will put her in her place but obviously not a fight or bite just a good scolding off 'get out of my space' type of thing.. I know her recall isn't perfect, I meant except for this.  I know it is quite breed specific, every standard I know has been like this at some stage and all will grow out of it.  She doesn't go right up to the dog or person she either does a hand brake turn about 20 feet in front of them or circles around once about 20 feet from them but this would be close enough for a dog to reach her.  She is fast, I mean really fast she played with 3 greyhounds on the beach last year and outran them all.

My husband wants to remain with very secluded places and avoid dogs were as I prefer to have her meet as many dogs as possible even if it is harder.  That's about it really.

In answer to your question, no, I wouldnt be shocked scared or annoyed if your dog came hurtling towards us. Sone will shoot me down for saying this, but, because of the breed they dont generally evoke a fearful response in the same way that perhaps a rottweiller or staffie may do. My miniature poodle is wary of other dogs but if all yours does is greet them and circle then there would be no problem. Only today a bull terrier of some description came running over to us. It was wearing a bright green collar that said friendly in large bold letters. Perhaps you could look at something similar.
I have no problem with dogs that are friendly that come bounding over, but obviously if you encounter someone that had a dog that was aggressive they may not be amused. you have to be prepared that one day your dog may go rushing over to a dog that is aggressive and there could be nasty consequences.
Dont give up though, recall needs continual training and just because your dog hasnt quite mastered it yet, doesnt mean she never will. Dont let it put you off letting her off lead (unless of course you are near a road) as that will not solve the problem.

I would just like to say though, the fact that you are trying to do something about it, are aware its a problem, and wouldn't shrug and tell the other dog owner to f off out the park and its a public park so their dog can do what they like, etc, etc, and no doubt you would apologise for it if it caused a problem, would make a huge difference to me. For all I knew you could be retraining a rescue dog for example, and I would give you the benefit of the doubt in that situation. :) Although your dog would still get chased off by my collie.

> It was wearing a bright green collar that said friendly in large bold letters.

What a good idea.  I googled them and here they are.  They can carry the opposite message too. 

I love those, I wish I'd invented them! What a brilliant idea.

Great for people, of course the downside is other dogs can't read them. :-D

If I was on my own ,then your dog would not worry me unless she was approaching aggressively. But if I had a dog with me then I would be more than a little angry. My one lad does not like strange dogs charging at him and would more than happy to give the other dog a damn good hiding!

Thank you for that Stooge, I am going to order a green friendly one now, people can read it and hopefully won't panic. We will work on this and socialise her around dogs more and wait it out.  As I have mentioned before our last dog took a few years to be 100% reliable on recall including other dogs, she'd trot off in their direction but would come back immediately when called (stop in her tracks and ignore dog).  We have made progress as there was a time she'd run up to somebody and jump up on them so she was put on a long line and never got the opportunity again.  Oh I do apologise.. all the time :)

If I had any dog running towards us I would be wary. My boy will chase other dogs of they run and has bowled a few over in the past: for me it would be not knowing the sex of your dog as any large breed male I have to be a little wary, I've never had a fight but I've seen my male have a few words with some!

Today thankfully I had my male on his own for a walk; 2 Springers can charging up, my boy took chase and they all ran out of sight, mine will chase until the other dog stops which isn't always helpful if the other dog is nervy... No issues today and one was a male, the worst reaction was with a young entire male Rott, the Rott backed down after all the grumbling and posturing :-)

Some dogs just won't tolerate another dog running at them. I have no problems with a dog running at me, all I have to be wary of is being knocked down lol

If it was just me being rushed at I would crouch down with my arms open 'cos I love the Standards! However I dont think some of my dogs would be impressed but I was in a similar position when I had a puppy who was huge for his age. When I was brave enough to let him run free over the fields he decided to run over to some dog walkers. I waved my arms around, making loud high pitched silly noises, and, when he turned to look at me I ran in the opposite direction. When he caught up with me I gave him a special treat. As he got older he never bothered with dogs or people and stuck with me on the walks.

I'd be warie, as there so many people leave aggressive dogs running lose I don't trust any dog I don't know infill I've spoken to the owner to see if it's friendly.
My girl use to run off to other dogs when she was younger, treats and toys didn't work so what I did was when she saw another dog and went to run I'd call her all excited and run in the opersit direction. She would see me running off and turn and run after me. I could then catch her and put her back on and give her a treat. Now she stops and comes back when I call even when it's her fav play mates. Was well chuffed when she picked me over her boyfriend Toby lol

Sorry for the essay....

Well, I have dogs on both sides of this problem, it really interests me. I have a collie who will not tolerate an intruder at all, if it gets within about 20ft it's fair game, doesn't make contact but will make all the relevant scary noises, posturing and chasing. My goldie (incidentally who came to me with a non existent recall and is pretty bombproof now) will tolerate much more but is not interested in dogs and will snap if repeatedly pushed. I try to suss out the dog and put at least the collie on a lead if I think they're going to approach.

Now I have a youngster who loves everyone and assumes everyone feels the same about him. I had the same problem you describe, the other dog could be a dot on the horizon and he would be off! I walked for some time with a long training line, and clipped him onto it when I saw something tempting. I let him see it and waited and gave big rewards for choosing to pay me some attention (I still always do this now, often two or three times on the same dog because if he thinks the reward is only coming once he will just take the reward then take off after the dog). A step I feel you mustn't miss if you do this is clipping the dog on and off the lead randomly, poodles are much more clever than my boy and even he started to think 'you're putting me on the lead, something must be coming'.
Another GREAT method for teaching/improving on a recall is a food circuit. Your dog likes treats and likes to run so I think that would be great for them, this was all I needed to teach my working goldie with very strong chase instincts a solid recall. Admittedly far more stupid than any poodle though ;) I think there's a YouTube video with teaching a food circuit. It's all about creating a more rewarding reason not to run up to a dog, but its really hard.

So, before I had my pup I would have been quite annoyed for a dog running up and upsetting one or two of my dogs, now I've been there I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and, as long as the dog was good natured and not looking for trouble as yours seems, it wouldn't bother me. But I would be annoyed if the owner got upset at me or my dog for snapping at the intruder! To me, a mild apology goes much further than 'he's friendly' or 'he just wants to play' because friendly or not at least one dog of mine is going to send it packing and I obviously don't want them to be in that situation! I always apologised to people my pup ran up to, and he is very well mannered. I don't think anyone ever really minded. Like you I wished at the time the dogs he ran up to would tell him to go away rather than engage in play but its not necessary in order to break the habit :)

Good luck, I know the horrifying feeling when you know they're going and there's nothing you can do but watch and hope :p lol

Was just thinking could you try walking with other dog walkers so she gets to know them and hopefully life would be easier for all parties when they are each other again. My boy is an absolute star with males when introduced to them properly and has stayed with a friend and some of her males last year with my girl there too.

sj,

my dog dislikes other dogs bounding right up to him and may react, he also is not keen on pups getting into his face-  especially when he is on a lead. More than anything he dislikes other dogs jumping on him, unless he has invited a game.

I spend my life trying to warn puppy owners, who insist that their puppy won't hurt my dog and that pup is only being friendly...heads and brick walls. Worst are gundog owners and especially owners of lab pups.

People seem to have this obsession with 'puppy license' and I keep having this cited to me, they seem to be of the view that pups can therefore do what they like and if your dog is irritable or snappy (and terriers do put on a big display id they are annoyed) it is your dog that is at fault.

In my view the whole puppy license things is woefully overrated. Dogs that all live together is one thing but where they are complete strangers it simply does not hold true. My dog is also an intact male from an aloof breed and over familiarity is not his thing.

>In my view the whole puppy license things is woefully overrated.

Puppy licence certainly exists - but often it simply means that the pup won't be bitten as badly as it would be if it was an adult.

I would suggest that
your treats/rewards aren't high enough value for your dog to return, the thrill of running around or meeting other dogs/people is far better & more fun to her than what you are offering.
You need to find what she finds is of real high value - and you may have a surprise - she may value something that you consider low
value as the best thing since sliced bread. Be it food or a squeaky ball etc.
Our behaviourist has suggested to us we need to work on 'focus' and to do this means we are feeding the dry biscuits portion of our boys meals
outside on walks etc asking them to find it (drop a few biscuits on the ground). We also have treats that are high value that are mixed into the
training. This has worked well and our boy is VERY food driven now.

It's hard as for me I always put my dogs on leads (if they have been off-lead) as I don't know if the other dog approaching is friendly or not.
Plus you don't 100% always know whether both sets of dogs will be at ease with each other etc. Normally when I walked
my pair of litter sisters out I knew that one would be very reliable with other dogs as long as there wasn't a tennis ball in the mix, but
her litter sister could be very selective with which dog she liked or disliked. The older members of the clan wouldn't mind as long as the
other dogs were friendly but if they were growled at or snapped at - then they would retaliate.

However the one lad we have had returned due to behavioural problems is a frustrated dog (we are under a qualified behaviourist and she has assessed him and we are working on his issues) he'd go absolutely ballistic if a dog did this to him (he's always on lead at present).
I'd also be annoyed as basically the type of dog he is - we'd undo all the hard work we'd put in thus far and he'd just be a wreck/stressed
and we'd be back to square one.
(He is getting better but it's a very long haul) So we do tend to walk him at quieter times when there are less things to get stressed about but
that he still sees some dogs and people. We are taking his rehab slowly at a pace that he feels comfortable with.

To be honest you may be better walking with someone who has a dog with 100% recall so that she has a buddy and will follow their lead.
So she has fun free running but will follow the reliable dog back on recall, she may even see it as a fun game..

We have the same problem with Bog Dog who is a Lab boy but is a large rangey lad same age as your boy.

We adopted him six months ago and was a wild child who was very excitable and wanted to investigate everything and everybody. ( he had been restricted to alot of lead walking.

I have been training him to the whistle and what I have also being doing is watch like a hawk to see any dogs or people before he sees them and I turn round and blow the whistle abd say 'bye bye Bog' . He soon clicked on and turns straight round and comes back. If I see a dog we know that he enjoys playing with a five him the command ' good boy go and see' and he will bound off to go and meet them. He is like a steam train but does have amazing brakes thank goodness !

He is not 100% yet and regressed when we had the snow as his excitement levels were heightened and so attention span was reduced !

We are booked on for a breed club organised training session in a couple of months time so I hope by then my hard work will not have all been in vain !

JG,

I am in no doubt puppy licence exists but I am less clear that it applies to all dogs and all pups, outside the home environment, in such a way that it can be stated as a law of canine behaviour whereby the dog that does not comply is viewed as dysfunctional. Many bitches are instinctively nurturing and males that live in a household with bitches and puppies will also learn how to 'behave'. I'm less clear why any dog, especially an intact male, that is a complete stranger to the pup, would have an instinctive need to protect it. I have met some very nuturing males and I have also met many males that dislike/are intolerant of puppies- though in every other way they are nice, well socialised dogs. It is quite an interesting subject and I am sure there must be some good research on it out there. However, I don't want to derail this thread:)

Thank you so much for all of your replies they have all given me some thought on being on the receiving end of this behaviour.  I'm not sure if any of you understand what a standard poodle is like at this age she thinks that EVERYONE is her friend and life is just so much FUN.  I love this breed they are born clowns and highly intelligent.  She will learn new things in an instant but recall and this galloping at other dogs is fun for her and all the treats in the world won't stop her if she is having fun.  I have put her name down for dog class we had to miss out because I was ill and priorities were different for us at that stage but she will be literally the life and soul of the class and I am embarrassed already just thinking about it.  :(

When putting her name on the list the dog trainer on hearing her breed laughed and said 'oh we've had a few over the years, very intelligent but such a carry on' he went on to agree with me they really only settle by 4/5 years of age.  Honestly I am not making excuses this is just how it is.  I have taken on board all your very good suggestions.  We will do more walks with friend's dogs, in the past we have been put off by this because of the carrying on but will persevere.  

She is an intact bitch, we have booked her spay date for 3rd April.  Any thoughts on this? Good or bad idea?  Our last bitch was emergency spayed at 8 years with pyometra  we have absolutely no intentions to breed.

> tell me if you'd be shocked, scared or annoyed if you saw her coming at you.
>

Wouldn't bother me at all, my lot are all very well socialised.

In my experience recall gets better with age. My young silken windhound is 18 months and like yours has perfect recall when he's nothing better to do, but it's hit and miss if he sees a potential friend on the horizon. Thankfully he never runs right up to strange dogs, he'll stop 20 yards away and play bow and race off to see if they want to run, if they don't follow he then ignores them. But still it wouldn't bother me if yours ran right up, though the collies may well snap at her if they thought she was too pushy.

Before my old borzoi boy died though I would have hated your dog, he was dog aggressive and walked with a muzzle on. I did realise though that this was my problem and young dogs can't always be expected to behave perfectly hence the muzzle :-D

Multitask,

I'm sure you'll be fine. You are aware and that is the main thing.

As you point out, her behaviour is typical for her breed at this age and many pups are over familiar, partly by wiring and partly because they have not learned adult etiquette across a range of breeds and types- some pups learn more easily than others and,of course, some breeds/types/individuals have have different tolerance/thresholds on approach by other dogs, especially dogs they do not know or very bouncy dogs. In my view, this is not necessarily a sign of how well your dog has been socialised- they may have been as well socialised as they can be, but are always going to have a need for more space than other dogs who are much more space/ approach tolerant.

Multitask,
In memory of my previous dog (died 2011). He came from rescue with fear issues, he would have been devastated to receive such an approach.  We spent a lot of time (and money) working on his problems, and he would make good improvements until an approach like this happened, whereupon he would be set back almost to the beginning.  Age, breed, gender of approaching canine tornado made no difference, in fact until he died he still had "issues" with a couple of dogs which had run up to him when they were pups.  In the end, we avoided other dogs as far as possible and walked in quiet places or at quiet times. 

> please tell me if you'd be shocked, scared or annoyed if you saw her coming at you.

I certainly got annoyed by this sort of approach when I was walking him, as I knew all too well that I would have a heap of rehabilitation to do.  Even now, with an adult dog who can handle himself competently in any situation, I still feel the hairs stand up on the back of my neck.

(Just to keep me humble, I also have a pup who is one who loves everyone and everydog and I'm having the same sort of fun job as you in teaching him his manners.)

I've had this behaviour with Linc, my youngest.  I started rewarding him the second he saw another dog - I use a clicker, it really helps speed it up and make it clear for him what I was rewarding.  Pretty soon he was stopped when he saw them in anticipation of the click, so I started clicking that; then stopping and looking at me, and then stopping and coming back to me.  Voila, dogs become a recall cue!  I've since done the same thing with Paige, my little dobe - she was the same and it's worked an absolute gem with her.  I'm now doing it with Opi, my nearly 10yr old rott - she's been a sod for going off to say hello to dogs her whole life and nothing has improved that, except this.  It's working very nicely and she's finally stopping to think about what she's doing (she's just at the stop-and-look-back stage atm).

It's the only way I could get him to recall around them - his body language was brilliant and he's friendly but he's also 27" to the shoulder and black, and half-dobe so he does look very intimidating if he's hurtling towards you and you don't know him.  I heard someone passing by saying to her friend "he's on lead because he's wild" and she intoning 'wild' with an aggressive meaning - actually I'd kept him on because she was walking right behind us and he was really wanting to go say hi and I knew he'd ignore me in the end.  But it showed the impression he gives.

ETA if I was on the receiving end I'd be wary but that's it - but I can read dogs very well.  The vast majority of people IME cannot read dogs at all so it would be scary.  I would however be furious if I was walking my youngest bitch - she has big issues with dogs being friendly since she was chased by an aggressive one and this would really set her back.

Is it always different people you meet like this? If you met the same people on walks, you could possibly get her onlead, let her say hello, then explain that if you should happen to meet again with her offlead, she may gallop up, do a circle, then go away again, and you are working on it. Otherwise if it's always strange people, you would be best to put her onlead, or at least after she's done the gallop, go up and apologise and explain, promising that it's just a circle she does and then comes back. I would be slightly startled but not scared if she came galloping up to me, one of my dogs would be scared but that's just her being a wuss, my boy might bark and try to chase her off though.

Merrypaws reading that made me so sad for the devastation I would have caused your dog and I wouln't have known the effects it would have had until too late.  I am so vigilent that generally she is recalled before the galloping occurs but some we are just not quick enough :( 

Really it is down to manners and I am embarassed to say in the company of other dogs she would appear to have none.  :(

>Really it is down to manners and I am embarassed to say in the company of other dogs she would appear to have none.  :-(

Mine is very bad-mannered when meeting other dogs too, despite all our best efforts. :-( You're not alone.

Thank you, Multitask :) .  I promised him when I started visiting forums that I would put "his side".  I had never heard a dog scream :( until he came to live with me.

Now I have to enact my promise to him with my own playful pup, who has zero manners with other dogs and becomes deaf as soon as he sees one :( .  You're so right, canine response time is super fast, it keeps us mere humans right up on our toes :) .

Not in reply to anyone in particular. Just thinking out loud really :)

I sometimes wish we could turn the clock back to 'the old days when we didn't have 'issues' if a dog came bouncing merrily towards us or our dogs. There seems to be so many more aggressive dogs around these days, which has I suppose, in part led to an increase in numbers of nervous dogs. Dogs used to meet up and generally happily sort themselves out. I wonder if with all our knowledge and care maybe sometimes we make situations worse? I am not for one minute suggesting we shouldn't be training our dogs to behave well in public, just casting my mind back to when life with dogs was more carefree :)  Being a dog owner is so much more fraught with difficulties these days!

I wonder also what it is about black dogs that worries people so much ?  I find with my current two- a golden and a flatcoat- it is the so gentle black girl who a passer by may give a wider berth.  I do understand why other dogs may have difficulty in understanding a black dog's body language. Off to order one of those FRIENDLY collars for my poor flatcoat! :)

> I wonder also what it is about black dogs that worries people so much ?

I don't think it is people that are worried, but their dogs. The eyes are usually difficult to see, so perhaps the dog's intentions are more difficult to read ?

> be so many more aggressive dogs around these days, which has I suppose, in part led to an increase in numbers of nervous dogs

Not always because of aggressive dogs. My younger dog injured her paw very badly (this continued to give her problems for years) and so she was very nervous about being 'bounced' on by other dogs. She was also attacked four times (three times by staffies, one staffie twice) while on the lead. Maybe she gave off the wrong 'signals', I don't know. The staffies concerned both came running up from a distance and just attacked her. The staffie that attacked her on two separate occasions was known to us and had, for a couple of years, been absolutely fine with both my dogs prior to this ??? It's not surprising that my dog is nervous of 'in your face' dogs. She 'told off' a couple of my neighbours' dogs and thereafter they were all fine together.

My comment re black dogs and people refers to people who don't necessarily have a dog with them :)

There are many reasons why dogs are or become nervous- I just observe there seems to be an increase in both aggressive and nervous dogs :) 

Bestdogs, as someone who has Golden Retrievers, I know how "drawn" people generally are to them. They are (sometimes mistakenly) regarded as a most gentle and laid back dog. If I ever take mine to a busy place, they are always the centre of attention, with people wanting to touch them. In fact, people will walk past and run their hands down their backs. Could it just be that they don't know the breed of your black (Flatcoat) dog?

With regard to the OP and her issue with her dog charging up to others, I am sure that my dogs would easily be able to read the body language of a friendly approach. We have however had a few instances of late, whereby dogs have charged and singled out my youngest (who's 2 1/2). She knew it wasn't friendly and when I turned around to call her, she was stood stock still with these two other dogs circling her, poor love! At least she knew not to bolt for it, or I'm sure they would have had her!

Personally, I have known a few Standards and my own experience has not been a positive one. I do take every dog on their own merit however, but a Standard Poodle charging up to us would make me feel defensive I'm afraid. My oldest bitch would probably try to chase her off.

as a dog owner/walker, I often find the most important thing is the other dog owner's attitude. If there seems to be an effort to recall your dog, most times when you both come face to face, you can have a chat and maybe joke about it.

My youngest was a bugger for running and jumping on strangers! My OH was always too embarrased to sort it out, but the day I sprinted over to her and grabbed her just as she was about to jump at a jogger, the lady was grateful & at least knew I was trying. Thankfully it was just a stage but none the less embarrasing and not good!

We had an incident yesterday, whereby a young Lab was harrassing my girls. We've met before & the man owner always says "He's only a year old" like that's alright or excusing his dog's bad manners. Well yesterday he carried on walking out of sight (we were on the beach so not easy). The owner then started using his whistle for several minutes while his dog was winding my eldest girl up! She chased him off a couple of times and ended up on the lead herself as the owner was nowhere to be seen, just whistling!! So in the end I walked my girl on lead with his dog in pursuit around the corner to where the owner was. I was sooooo tempted to give him a piece of my mind but just told the dog to go, so it did. The owner called and waved "thank you" to me, little did he know I was fuming!!!

I like the idea of finding other dog walkers to walk with. This will give your girl some experience with other dogs and perhaps help in her approach?

She does not sound like she is harassing other dogs, and this is probably why she has never had a real good telling.  I used to hope the same from my beagle, she never seemed to get told off despite being able to spot another dog from about a mile away.  And certainly she was more interested in another dog than in anything I could offer her.  She has to a large extent grown out of it, she has been told once or twice and she has always been totally non threatening in her approach.  So much so she now approaches and lies down to weigh up the situation before she makes a decision whether to greet or not.  I do keep her on lead in highly public areas (like where non dog folk have food) so a hot day at the beach is not ideal for her, nor is a nice evening at the big local park where folk go and have barbecues, but she has to be a dog and to be honest, while I appreciate that those with nervous/aggressive dogs have a hard time and may well be training to try to help their dogs I also think they have some responsibility to their dogs.  For instance, close to me I have a small park which is frequented by a lot of casual dog walkers, I would not be taking my reactive dog there.  I also have some woods and fishing lakes, again lots of dog walkers, generally a better class of owner but still lots of off lead dogs and lots of places a dog could pop out of.  Finally we have a big country park I rarely walk in as it is generally full of joggers, families, people who leave waste food on the floor etc, cafes and the like.  I don't go there because I need eyes in the back of my head to make sure the dogs are not up to mischief.  They all have pretty good recalls but I have to know I need to call them first.  If I had a reactive dog (and indeed when I did) this is where we would go on the basis that mine and most other dogs are on leads anyway.  And if I wanted to get him off lead I would seek out quiet places.

When my beagle was at her worst, I would be calling her, approaching and once I got her back if she had been causing problems I would lead her up.  Unfortunately the response I got most was "it's ok she is only playing" as the other owner fussed her.  Yeah thanks for helping me with my recall work there!  At least anyone could see I was trying though.  These days if I see her dart I will call her.  It works sometimes, if she rushes off I will call "quietly" to her and rather than barrel in she backs off on approach, once she has done that she is usually happy to come back.  I think at least people can see she is not totally out of control.

The only real issue I have these days is boys paying too much attention to my springer bitch.  She needs to grow up a little before I spey her but she is not interested in other dogs at all so when boys come wanting to mither her (out of season) she gets a bit mithered.  The worst was a night when we encountered an oldish chap with some terrier type entire boy who would not leave her alone and he had no lead.  I would have given him one of mine if I thought he would use it!  And that instance was on a road walk during a season (the reason we were doing on lead road walks only)

Bestdog you are so right, in days gone by dogs were allowed to be dogs and run and play together, I am fortunate in that mine still do.
We walk in an area that there are lots of dogs of all different shapes and sizes, and they mix and socialise and most importantly learn to be a dog.
Dogs learn manners from each other, they learn how to approach other dogs, and the more they are allowed to play and mix with different dogs the more they learn, and the better adult they will become.

There is far to much emphasis put on having dogs on lead and having them under control at all times !!!

Socialisation, with other dogs and people is extremely important and the lack of it is one of the reasons that there are now so many nasty dogs around nowdays. People keep pups on leads and some dogs never get to run and play with a group of dogs. This leads to dogs being nervous and fearful of other dogs, and very often this fear has been picked up from the owner, who as soon as they see another dog puts them on the lead.

As a dog trainer who worked  at a training club for many years, I can tell you that there are very few bad dogs, that most of the the dogs with issues are as a direct result of the owner and nearly always down to a lack of socialisation at an early age.
Rescue societys must also take some of the responsibility for rehoming dogs with issues to people who do not have the knowledge or skills to deal with the dogs problems.
Any dog that will attack a puppy has serious issues this is not the norm and needs to be dealt with and IMO a dog that is likely to attack a dog at all on or off lead should be muzzled in a public place.

All dogs should be be taught a good recall, but pups and youngsters are learning and you will always get the situation where a pups goes to investigate another dog.

Far to many people make excuses for owning a nasty or aggressive dog, it's a rescue, its had a bad start, nervous etc, etc. Fine but the dog is the owners responsibility, if it can't be trusted then it should not be being walked in an area where it is likely to come into contact with other dogs without a muzzle.
If you take on a rescue, or own a dog that has problems, then you can not expect every other dog or owner to keep out of your way.
There are some dogs that are so damaged and untrustworthy that they would be better of being PTS but the owners persist in keeping them because they are attached to them,  but then they want everyone and everything to make way for them. It is an unrealistic expectation.

There are so lovely dogs in rescue with good temperaments, that they could have a fare more enjoyable life with.
Probably sounds harsh, but I am old enough to remember when dogs were just let out on the street, and played with other dogs and the local kids. In those days nasty dogs were just not tolerated, a dog was allowed one bite if it did it again it was gone.
With regard to the original question regarding your dog rushing up, I would not be worried, my dogs would welcome her for a good play and a gallop round the field and I would be more than happy to have a chat and even do a bit of training with you if you wanted. Mine all come back to the whistle and if a youngster joins the group they will come back with the others and line up for a tasty treat. Learning by example from the other dogs.

That is how it should be, keeping a dog on a lead all the time is not and should never become the norm. Leads are necessary for safety and in a training situation, but free socialiastion is essential, the dog that is always called back and put on the lead as soon as another dog comes into a view is the one which will develop problems and never learn normal dog behaviour.

> My question is, if you were the person walking quietly on your own or with your dogs and you saw a big black dog galloping towards you would you panic?

Well I wouldn't but my youngster who has been attacked several times by black dogs definitely would. Then she would bark hysterically and then run blindly away. Probably not stopping for several hundred yards. I would be extremely annoyed as I am working so hard to get my little girl over her fears and an incident like this would set her right back.

Totally take your point with that and can imagine that would be very frightening for your girl, but I wonder what the dog in question would do if another dog exhibited an obvious fear response.  It sounds as though perhaps the OP has had a bit of a negative reaction from some other walkers but not like anything really bad has happened.  It makes me wonder if the dog in question is either not quite as bad as it sounds from the OP, or has learned enough not to aggravate or frighten other dogs. 

I certainly agree with the advise that has been offered regarding long lines and continuing training, but I also know from my own experience with the beagle that no treats and no amount of long lines would ever make me more interesting than another dog.

>in days gone by dogs were allowed to be dogs and run and play together

>There is far to much emphasis put on having dogs on lead and having them under control at all times

>Socialisation, with other dogs and people is extremely important and the lack of it is one of the reasons that there are now so many nasty dogs around nowdays. People keep pups on leads and some dogs never get to run and play with a group of dogs. This leads to dogs being nervous and fearful of other dogs, and very often this fear has been picked up from the owner, who as soon as they see another dog puts them on the lead.

Oh I absolutely agree with this post :-D

> I also know from my own experience with the beagle that no treats and no amount of long lines would ever make me more interesting than another dog.

One treat will not make you more interesting . What you need to do is build up a reinforcement history. I dish out treats frequently on walks but in particular if there is a person or another dog about. I work with my dogs at a distance where they can see the dog but it is at a far enough distance that they will not immediately dash over to it. I keep the treats coming frequently enough that they stay with me rather than going to see the other dog. I am not sure I am explaining it well but I now have a male dog who will see another dog and come to me for kibble rather than go up to it and try to bonk it if it is a girl. He will also come to me instead of chasing cyclists and joggers which was becoming a problem with him.

Your explaination is spot on, I can understand perfectly what you are saying.  My difficulty with the beagle is that she knew when she was on line and behaved impeccably.  And she can smell another dog from 4 miles and 2 days away.  There is no way I could spot a dog before she caught on.  I have some great treats, a fantastic variety, and all plenty smelly enough to motivate her, and she knows I have them, I have worked and worked reward based training, to the point I considered other things to try to break the desire.  Ultimately she has largely grown out of it.  She always comes back eventually (it takes maybe a minute at most).  She is well aware I have sweeties, she knows she gets one now for a good recall, sometimes for checking in and maybe for a not so good recall.  Ultimately if I am somewhere I need to have a spot on recall and she needs to be under total control she is leaded up. 

My boy is not an easily trained breed . It has a reputation for being stubborn and willfull. However they don't have the overpowering instinct to get their heads down and follow a scent which I presume is what makes your beagle so hard to manage. I love beagles and would like to have one someday. I would love the training challenge too.

Unfortunately I have to admit having two dogs that don't take well to others rushing in (wish they were different), one has back concerns & the other due to leg problems is physically unfit to run with other dogs. So yes they are recalled & put on lead, I'm more than aware that it's my problem but the problem escalates if the other owner treats it as a joke, without any attempt to recall or follow up. It's the response to what's going on that's far more of a issue, 'my dogs alright', 'what's wrong with your dogs', 'they're ONLY playing', 'you need to socialise your dogs' are unhelpful.  If the owner does their best to recall & is prepared to see that there's more going on, than just their dog I've no problem. It's all very well saying all dogs should be able to deal with any incoming dog, I wish. The thing I'm grateful for is that it's taught me to be more aware of others & attempt to assist if they too don't have perfect dogs.

Recall is the thing that most owners have problems with.

Very often dogs are given too much freedom as pups before they have the an adequate level of training.
There is a big difference between socilasing and allowing a dog off lead to go wild, and range.

I started to train my last litter to the whistle at 5 weeks of age. Just simply gently blowing the whistle and then putting there meal down, this progressed to them going outside and being called in to the whistle at each meal.

Things that they experience at an early age imprints easily and they remember it forever.

Before the puppy has had its vaccinations I  do recalls in the house, just calling the dog to me from the other side of the room, down the hall from the kitchen to the living room, from the garden back into the house. Each time they come they get a tasty treat and lots of paraise, they have to beleive what they have done is truly wonderful and they are the best thing sliced bread.
Recalls need to take time, to do them in places where there are no distractions of other dogs or people to start with, then build up gradually introducing other distractions.
The key is also to make yourself as interesting as possible, with high value treats, a special toy that they really really want, but only ever comes out sparingly, and only when they play with you.

I find having a game of rough and tumble or a tuggy toy can be effective, but you have to take into account the breed and the excitement level of the dog. Silly voices and and generally being fun will all encourage the dog to come back to you, because they want to be with you.
Very often people let the puppy off the lead to run everywhere and anywhere and especially in some of the hunting breeds the smells and distractions just blow their minds.
I try and find small enclosed areas,  or use the long line, as well as going to training classes, where the dog learns to work around dogs and other people.
With an older dog it is going to be more difficult, but if you go back to treating them as you would a puppy, and never putting them in the situation where they are allowed to bog off till you have reached that level of training it can be done.

With my own dogs even though they are trained I still call them back frequently during walks, to keep up the level of training and they always  get lots of treats and fuss, I vary where I put the leads on so they can't anticipate where the walk is going to end.
Sometimes I call them back put the leads on, walk for a little while and let them off again, so the lead on does not always mean the end of the walk.
Playing hide and seek, where I hide in the bushes, is also a good technique, with pups as they are releived when they find you.
Other techniques that can work are if your dog is mad for balls and loves to retrieve, just when they are about to do one, throw the ball in the oposite direction, the dog then goes for the ball, brings it back to you and you have turned a negative behaviour into a positive one.
I expect my dogs to come back immediately, no if's ands or buts, if they disobey, the lead goes on and the walk is terminated, they have to learn there are consequences, and being off lead is a privelege and not a right. I never say anything never tell them off, just clipp the lead  on and we turn for home.
I have very rarely had to do it, but they do get the message pretty quick.

One thing that I do find on our walks is the number of people who never interact with their dogs on walks, they are either on the phone or have ear plugs in and most of the time haven't a clue where their dog is or what it up to. Then they wonder why the dog makes it's own entertainment and gets into trouble.

> but free socialiastion is essential

is essential to what?

My dog would not bat an eyelid at having any dog rush up to him, he'd be ready for play if the other dog wanted, or if the other dog was nasty, he'd try to calm it down. He is a very friendly dog, with bags of patience and bags of tollereance for insecure and/ generally grumpy dogs. He's an entire male that has never been allowed off-lead with other people's dogs.

GOOD encounters with other dogs is what socialsation is all about, not willy-nilly free-running.

While I personally would not mind the OPs dog charging at my dog (and nor would my dog mind, he'd enjoy it), there are plenty of dogs out there that this could be a problem for.

>the dog that is always called back and put on the lead as soon as another dog comes into a view is the one which will develop problems and never learn normal dog behaviour.

That is a generalisation that is just not true. Dogs can still socialise on a lead/long line, unclipping the lead does not make a difference as long as the handler/owner is not inadvertantly teaching the wrong things.

The problem with dogs behaviour is when the owner is teaching bad habbits (yanking on dogs lead in the presence of other dogs for example or stifling calming signals/noraml beahviour). In the 'good old days', when dogs were allowed to roam the streets at will, the dogs would have still beahved the same if they were roaming the streets dragging a leash behaind them. What I'm getting at is that it's not wheather a dog is leashed or not that is the problem, it's about what is at the other end of the leash. If the owner is not dog-savvy (In an ideal world, non-dog savvy people shouldn't be allowed a dog) they will teach the dog things with thier own beahviour that are probably not what should be taught. But a dog-savvy owner will not cause a problem.

PEOPLE are usually at the root of poor canine behaviour, but rather than take people out of the equasion and let dogs get on with it by thierselfs, PEOPLE should learn what they need to know in order to bring out the best in thier dog(s).

Lacy I can appreciate your problem, but you are never going to get the vast majority of the GP to change or take responsibility so those of us that do have to make our own plans.
It involves quite a bit of planning ahead. If one of mine is in season then we have to go to places that I can see well in advance any other dogs. If I am taking my nearly thirteen year old lady, I would do a different walk to the one where I am taking the youngster.
At weekends I will avoid certain areas and vary my times, as there are different dogs out to the ones we meet during the week.
You cannot legislate for idiots and their dogs, the vast majority of dogs are fine, but some are not, some dogs are lead reactive and send negative vibes to other dogs.
On our walks I often see a lady walking a collie, it is always on lead, but straining and barking and trying to have a go at every other dog it sees.
To most she is in the right because she has the dog on a lead, but this dog winds up most of the other dogs it passes, even the most placid. I do often wonder why she walks it in that area, obviously it must be for her enjoyment, as it is certainly not for the benefit of the dog who is totaly stressed.

Dorcas. Thank you, but yes I do plan. Avoid areas like you, take to the fields or beaches so I have a clear view, if I think there is going to be the slightest problem, dogs & I walk away. This does not mean we avoid all dogs, not at all, the older chap with back probs has friends he is happy to play with along with others we meet out and about. It's just that having nearly lost him twice I'm very careful, he goes to training which he enjoys & I do everything to get him out & about meeting & greeting but as a neutered male who attracts more than his fair share of attention, I've just learnt to be wary of the many idiots out there.

Dorcas,

I am replying to an earlier post where you talk about the reasons why you think dogs are less well socialised these days. There is little doubt that dogs that are allowed to run around as a loose pack and get to know each other day after day, will find a way to rub along.

I think part of the problem now is that there is a greater density and variation of dogs in certain spaces, especially the cities. You'll see some dogs a few times and then never again. It is not unusual on my walks to see dogs I have never seen before.

I also think that in some ways dogs were allowed more freedom to be dogs and made dog mistakes. A truly aggressive dog would not be tolerated but the odd dog fight was seen as par for the course. Terriers that ragged your trousers were often a source of amusement. A dog bite might be tolerated- my mother as a child got a nasty nip from a family pet whose tail she trod on by accident, the doctor was called- she was advised to wash it well with salt water and that was that- I know plenty of stories like this.

You also say that any dog that attacks a puppy is not normal.....what do you mean by attack, what do you mean by puppy and what do you mean by normal? I always recall seeing an intact male Weiramaner set about and shake and try to kill a puppy. The male was a family pet and the pups were bred in his home, though he was not the father.