What do we think of the final of Scrufts being held at Crufts this year ? - these are dogs that will have qualified for the worlds greatest dog show  by wining 'Prettiest Bitch' and 'Most Handsome' dog at companion shows.

They will also be paying just £2.00 for their entry  instead of the £26 that pedigree dogs are charged - is this not an insult to the thousands of pedigree dog exhibitors who have spent many years breeding to the KC's own breed standards, health testing their dogs, supporting the ABS and  spending  hundreds on entry fees and petrol costs  campaigning their dogs in order to qualify ? ... is it not a mockery that well bred pedigree dogs that happen to be  docked will NOT be allowed to show but any unhealth tested  designer 'Oodle Doodle ' can  .

How much lower can the KC sink in order to appease those who will never be happy until Crufts BIS is the dog who wins 'waggiest tail ' and pedigree dogs are a thing of the past !!

Yvonne

I can see it both ways -probably because of my cat background. Pet cats (as in both moggies and crossbreeds and pet quality pedigrees) can win titles etc and are allowed at pretty much all championship shows and at the Supreme show. They are judged on condition and temperament above all. They have their own BIS finals and are never judged against any pedigree cats. HOWEVER, there are a couple rules that I think the KC should use as well. 1. Any pet cat entered MUST be neutered. These are pets, not to be bred from. 2. Entry fees are the same! So yes, I DO agree it is an insult to not charge them the same as the rest of us.

Crufts is just another Championship dog show to those of us who show but to the general public it is an exhibition of everything dog so I do not see any problem in any dog being able to attend, after all there are other activities that may well have mongrels competing as well and there has been for years so nothing different there either.

Now as to the huge difference to the entry fee that is something that perhaps should be explained.

That's a tricky one isn't it?

A big plus would be that the GP get to see and realise that their oodle, uggle and whatever actually are not pedigree dogs and new breeds which they often think they are and can only enter Scrufts, so it would highlight big time that the price they pay for their 'breeds' is ridiculous, so I like it for that reason.

The downside is people may wish to breed from the winner and runner ups as advertised winners of Scrufts, :-(

I personally do not think it should be run in the same venue, I agree it takes away all the careful breeding and time and money spent, I'm not opposed to it happening in a separate place and time of year, to highlight my point one and give those with crosses and heinz 57's a chance to win with their pretty dogs.

But I do agree Trevor it should not be at Crufts it is an insult.

The downside is people may wish to breed from the winner and runner ups as advertised winners of Scrufts, :-(

And they won't say Scrufts, they will say CRUFTS as that's where it was! Same thing with legitimising the designer crossbreeds. "Parents been to Crufts". "It is a KC recognised breed because they were at Crufts" etc. So back to my idea about them having to be neutered, otherwise they could not be shown.

Don't get my mind thinking about all of those scenario's as I know it is all too true. :-(

The neutering idea is brilliant, alas would the KC ever implement it as a condition? I think not, they are just thinking of themselves finding a way to latch on to all the none pedigrees out there and make some more money. I can't see any good coming from this at all, just putting a lot of people's backs up.

Can understand your objections and comments but do you feel the same about the crosses and mongrels that take part in agility, flyball, dancing with dogs, obedience and canicross and then there is the best companion/helping dog award that takes up so many column inches and such a lot of TV time. To my way of thinking this is not a normal sort of championship dog show it is a dog circus and that is what the pet owners like it to be and I can't see it ever becoming a Championship Dog Show that is anything like the others it does not have the emphasis on the show dog until the very last moment when they perform the best in show. 

If you feel it an insult do not enter, we do have a choice there are many other shows for us to enjoy but not so many for people who wish to take their pet to a show.

Can understand your objections and comments but do you feel the same about the crosses and mongrels that take part in agility, flyball, dancing with dogs, obedience and canicross and then there is the best companion/helping dog award that takes up so many column inches and such a lot of TV time.

I agree with you that it's no longer a normal dog show, it's more like a dog festival and I love that. My personal objection is the low entry fee for Scrufts. I have no idea, does anyone know what people pay that take part in for instance obedience or agility? And do the Scrufts £2 entries include a ticket to get in, like we get?

Friends for Life I don't mind -it gets very boring with the number of times they repeat the stories on TV over the four days, but other than that, it doesn't interfere with anything else, only takes just minutes before BIS, and all positive dog news is good as far as I am concerned. (And please all vote for the Malinois police dog this year LOL!!!!)

If you feel it an insult do not enter, we do have a choice there are other shows for us to enjoy but not so many for people who wish to take their pet to a show.

All dogs at Crufts are pets aren't they? Seriously, you think if any of us find it an insult we should not enter..... this is Crufts!

To my way of thinking this is not a normal sort of championship dog show it is a dog circus

Exactly, why is it at Crufts? All shows and competitions at Crufts are serious whether BIS, agility, flyball, obedience etc they are all people working hard with training or breeding programmes to rear the best of the best.

It is just a big joke to have people walking into this arena of serious enthusiasts with a dog with the waggiest tale and get a title for it at Crufts.

I have no problem with Scrufts apart from it being held at Crufts (even I'm getting tongue tied here :-) ) there is a time and a place for everything, the 'circus' as you put it is not for this arena IMO, another time another place I would probably watch it as there is no reason that cross bred and mongrels owners should not also get to have fun with their dogs.

We'll have to agree to differ, I agree with Trevor completely that it is in the wrong place.

I have been to crufts in obedience (inter regional comp) the last two years, no entry fee for any competitors.... It may well be funded by something like the obedience council though, as I know they pay hall rent for one meet up per team.

I believe the championships are a small entry fee, something like £5, may have gone up to £10 now. Numbers are down on these classes this year due to dogs winning multiple tickets, so obedience doesn't bring much money in at crufts in comparison.

But I could have entered many obedience shows for what I paid to enter breed at crufts this year :p just another slant on the argument really. As there are (I think) 7 teams each with 8 dogs in the inter regional comp. Can't answer for other disciplines though.

Exactly, why is it at Crufts? All shows and competitions at Crufts are serious whether BIS, agility, flyball, obedience etc they are all people working hard with training or breeding programmes to rear the best of the best.

Very good point. I have bred two dogs that have been/are going to Crufts for reasons other than showing. One is a Malinois that twice took part in the inter regional obedience (not going this year as she has just moved up to C and didn't feel ready for C at Crufts already this year), the other is a Papillon that will be part of a flyball team next year. (As far as we know, the ONLY Papillon competing in flyball currently in the UK.) Both those dogs' owners have worked INCREDIBLY hard to get as far as this, training week in and week out, out in muddy cold fields in the winter as well as in the summer. I am just as proud of them (if not more!) as of my puppy buyers that have qualified for the show in the normal way.

..... surely the difference between non pedigrees competing in stuff like flyball, HTM and agility is that they are NOT being judged on their appearance but on their skills  - the Scrufts entrants will be entering  Prettiest Bitch  Handsomest dog  etc etc....and judged on how they look ....like some kind of parody of what the rest of us will be paying through the nose for .

Seriously folks can you imagine this happening at Westminster or the World Dog show ?

I honestly believe the Kennel Club have lost the plot !

Yvonne

I agree with Nova and try as I might I just can't get worked up about it. 
I think the average visitor will be quite itelligent enough to descriminate between what is serious competition and what is entertainment and the very title "Scrufts" will further inform them if they don't.
This competition seems to always get a fair bit of press coverage and it would not surprise me if the casual paper reader thinks it is going on at Crufts anyway.

Yes I agree Yvonne. It would only have made sense if they had done it the GCCF way; properly. Looks to not come into it.

I think it all comes down to one thing: the KC are terrified of the media.

> It would only have made sense if they had done it the GCCF way; properly.

The only difference seems to be neutering, I'm not sure that is all Tevor is objecting to. 

Well up to now it has been held in conjunction with discover Dogs I thought in November, so why change it.

I do think it's totally unfair that they will only be paying £2.00 to enter when we all have to pay a lot more and also of course we cannot enter our dogs into any Scufts qualifying rounds as we're not eligible!

As others have said, sadly this will also be a new advert winner for crossbreeds where they will put qualified for Crufts!  Thus ensuring that yet again the GP are fooled and will end up paying more again for any pups.

In many ways I don't mind.  It's great being able to see all the different "dog sports" but why do we have to pay so much more to enjoy ours?

I see that all money that is paid for entries for this and all the heats go to the KC charitable trust rather than to support the KC and all that goes with running the organisation so I suppose the money side is sort of explainable.

They are also looking at the health and temperament of the dogs so they are using some of the principles that apply to the judging rather than they look pretty.

I can understand though why people would be annoyed but at the same time it may encourage people to join in and then see the other side of the pedigree dogs and see what good breeders can achieve by the quality if the dogs being shown.

> Seriously folks can you imagine this happening at Westminster or the World Dog show ?
>
> I honestly believe the Kennel Club have lost the plot !

Exactly.  Crufts is has done nothing to bring back it's reputation as the world's greatest dog show.  Yes times change but Crufts is no longer a dog show in the same league of prestige or quality like Westminster or the WDS / EW shows.  Exhibitors are being shoved further and further out of sight out of mind, as though the KC wants the whole fallout from PDE to quietly fade away, and by bringing in a mongrel class they think this will appease them in the eyes of the public.  And you can bet the Scrufts class will get a whole load of sentimental publicity through the press and tv. 

I do think it's totally unfair that they will only be paying £2.00 to enter

yet winning bob or even best in show at crufts adds a lot of cudos to breed dogs, which of course it wont for the scrufts (even if they try and make out they've been to crufts) - showing is always more expensive than say agility because of what it is and to compare the cost of breed showing with either is imo ridiculous... scrufts is very much a 'fun' event surely rather than the more serious showing... agility is always fun, but at this level does become serious of course and very competitive... but given the range of events at crufts it can't be an issue having scrufts surely... just another 'event' for the public, the show is more than merely a championship breed show and the KC is trying to be more 'inclusive'...

> As others have said, sadly this will also be a new advert winner for crossbreeds where they will put qualified for Crufts!  Thus ensuring that yet again the GP are fooled and will end up paying more again for any pups.
>

I know a couple of people who enter their dog for Scrufts and have done well... the ones that win tend to be genuine mongrels and not 'designer' types. The person who won it overall last year did so with an oldie, Staffie rescue girl (spayed). The other dog which has won the Golden Oldie final and/or been placed - three times I think - is a terrier x collie type, also a rescue and also spayed. Neither owners are under any illusion that their dogs have won anything but a competition for pet non-pedigree dogs, and the fact it's held at Crufts this year makes no difference (since both owners go every year as spectators anyway!). But that doesn't detract from the excitement and pride that their special pet dogs have qualified, and got to the Final (wherever it's held).

Well hasn't "my brains gone dead" the dog that won Britain's Talent been used a few times when he was younger, I would think due to doing so well in the agility/working world, even though to me he has an incorrect mouth and being a crossbreed?  So some of them must get kudos in their world too?  I'm not being bitchy here just more of a query......

I'm also not having a go about Scrufts have enjoyed watching it at DD's but it does worry me that certain crossbreeds if one of their type won at Crufts that the advertising will state Crufts winner rather than Scrufts.....

£26.00 is a very large difference to an entry of £2.00.

> I do think it's totally unfair that they will only be paying £2.00 to enter

It is appalling!  Not even the price of a spectator ticket !!! 

I think the price is a reflection of this NOT being a serious competition but just a bit of fun in aid of charity. 

So if I have a cross, I can get my friends in for cheap :-)

> So if I have a cross, I can get my friends in for cheap

Well, you would have to win a heat first :) 
Not sure that they are able to bring friends, are they?  But not that bothered it they are, there is only half a dozen of them after all. 

I have no idea,  was just thinking out loud :-). Tbh I don't really have a issue apart from the price thing really. I can imagine my mom would be pleased as punch if our Ziggy was in there lol.

I bet they will all be chuffed to bits to be there :)

How many heats are there? Not many I don't think - are some becoming upset and worried over a few dogs who will be in the final. It can't be a bad thing to show fit and healthy dogs even if they are mongrels can it?

Just stop thinking of crufts as a Championship dog show and think of it as some sort of festival, the judging of pure bred dogs being just a small part - then you decide if you want to attend or not there is no compulsion.

> Just stop thinking of crufts as a Championship dog show and think of it as some sort of festival, the judging of pure bred dogs being just a small part

Well Crufts and the KC then first need to stop calling it a Championship dog show.

How about if they called it not just a Championship dog show? 

Well Crufts and the KC then first need to stop calling it a Championship dog show

Think they call it Crufts - yes it incorporates a dog show but as much if not more space is given over to retail and entertainment. It is much the same as the Ideal home exhibition it shows homes yes but they are not the main thing people go to look and buy.

> at the same time it may encourage people to join in and then see the other side of the pedigree dogs and see what good breeders can achieve by the quality if the dogs being shown.

This certainly worked in the Rabbit fancy.  I started showing my pet rabbit in the pet class judge on condition and temperament.

Within a few months I had decided which breed appealed most, had 3 sets of 4 storey hutches made and purchased breeding stock from the breeders whose stock I Liked.

I still kept and exhibited my origianl pet Agouti cross Hazel (looked like a wild rabbit but bigger) alongside the pedigree choclolate English, and I also ate the young stock that were obviously not show/breeding standard (you could tell markings at birth in my breed).

Same thing with legitimising the designer crossbreeds. "Parents been to Crufts". "It is a KC recognised breed because they were at Crufts" etc.

Some all ready say say that, a while ago a friend called up a breeder who had `labradoodle` litter advertised at £900, she said she wanted a show dog and could she show one. The breeder said yes there companion shows and labradoodle shows, so my friend asked can they show at crufts, the breeder said yes there's labradoodles at crufts. Conveniently forgetting to say only in the events like agility not the actual show. Good thing she knew the truth and was only calling out of interest.

Some all ready say say that,

Thing is whatever does or doesn't happen at Crufts dishonest people will say and advertise what they like they do not need a statement to be the truth to utter it.

I think that all scrufts dogs sould be spayed/neutered. or as said before, money will be made from there puppies when sold as ( mum shown at crufts )  I had nothing against the ashley and pudsey thing till she said he had fatherd puppies. i bet they sold for a lot. shame on her for breeding a mix breed just for money. well theres no other reson to stud him out is there? so without the spay /neutered rule you can bet the rescues will be full of puppys from scrufts crufts show dogs.

> you can bet the rescues will be full of puppys from scrufts crufts show dogs.

You do realise there is only half a dozen of them.
I think I'd be happier putting my shilling on them being rather responsible people, quite likely to have rescued their dogs, probably already neutered and probably very against irresponsible breeding if not breeding all together!
I don't know but rather thought Pudsey was from the agility/obedience world where breeding for desirable attributes is really no different to breeding for conformation in the breed world is it?

yes it is. show dogs are bred for heath and confirmation. not if they can dance or not . Its about breeding good sound dogs not entertainment tools.

You are entitled to your opinion but I think many people regard breeding dogs for their obedience and agility attributes is perfectly legitimate. 
I certainly think breeding for working attributes is legitimate so feel it would be hypocritical not to consider these other hobbies perfectly valid too and I am sure health and temperament comes into it also.

Im all for breeding for good working dogs. but dancing is in the training not in the breeding. who knows what genetic foults lay in mix breed dogs . no record is kept on there health. there are enough dogs being bred with no heath testing by BYB who just want money. with out studing out a dancing dog to make money. And when the new owners of these dogs find the puppies are not born to dance and that it was hard work that did it. they dump them

>And when the new owners of these dogs find the puppies are not born to dance and that it was hard work that did it. they dump them

You have proof of this, or are you just speculating/scaremongering?

I spend more than half my life on pet for sale pages trying to educate people who have bought a puppy thinking it will be like the dog on the tv and now want rid of it as its not anything like they thought. so yes i do

I just think its wrong for breed exhibitors to subsidise any other group period - we pay on average £52 to get a dog to Crufts if they qualify on their first outing - how many shows would a Scrufts entrant attend and qualify at for the price of a single entry at a 'regular' championship show?

Think the KC are just bending over whilst the media/anti's chew them a new one on our behalf.

I think that all scrufts dogs sould be spayed/neutered.

I think that was a reply to me so I'll answer - the reason I think people are being alarmed for no reason is that there will be about 6 of these dogs and most if not all will be neutered, so although I am as against indiscriminate breeding I do feel we are being alarmist to think that the finalists of this event will offer anything of a threat to the stray situation.

I am not sure either we are within out rights to tell others what and when they can breed, to insist on only breeding from healthy dog with good reason yes, but you can't say that just because someone owns a mongrel they are bound to be irresponsible.  We in pure breeds breed to retain and improve the breed but some breed for a particular ability to work and as I say I am not sure we should criticise them for than as they no doubt think their cause is as important as ours if not more so.

> I spend more than half my life on pet for sale pages trying to educate people who have bought a puppy thinking it will be like the dog on the tv and now want rid of it as its not anything like they thought. so yes i do

But this is just as likely to be true of BYBs of pedigree dogs. Responsible breeders vet the homes that they sell to in order to ensure, to the best of their ability,the home is knowledgable and responsible.  Have you any evidence that the owners of bitches taken to Pudsey are any less responsible?  I suspect most of his puppies, if not all, have gone to homes interested in similar disciplines.

> I just think its wrong for breed exhibitors to subsidise any other group period

I think it is likely to be the other way around quite honestly. :)  If my calculations are correct, six competitors and possible a guest each equals a saving of £144 at most that they might have spent on tickets, assuming of course that they would have attended otherwise. Whereas, initiatives like this, which will take up maybe an hour of the main ring, may keep the visitors thronging in and paying for tickets that help subsidise the, no doubt, huge cost of the NEC and thus probably keeps the entry fees lower than they might be.

> You do realise there is only half a dozen of them.
> I think I'd be happier putting my shilling on them being rather responsible people, quite likely to have rescued their dogs, probably already neutered and probably very against irresponsible breeding if not breeding all together!

And I think you are right on the money, there. As I said before, the two individuals I know who have got to previous finals, both have rescued neutered dogs and certainly are responsible owners.

The Scruffts heats are few and far between - and only the 1st prize winners can go forward to the final.  Classes can be HUGE... as many as 30 dogs, and if I wanted to have a go with my crossbreed then I'd be looking at having to travel at least 100 miles to get to the nearest KC companion show holding a Scruffts heat class. [Not that I would, it would be his idea of hell.... but as a puppy he was placed 2nd out of over 40 dogs in Most Handsome Dog at a non-KC fun show]

In fact there's only FOUR dogs in the Scruffts final - details are here -
http://www.discoverdogs.org.uk/news/crossbreeds-chosen-scruffts-final-crufts-2013

and if you want to see photos taken of the competitors in the heats, there is a KC Flickr page here -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thekennelclub/collections/72157624177676069/

Previous winners photos -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thekennelclub/sets/72157606293039768/with/2688787443/

I really don't think the pedigree dog world has much to fear :)

Ashley and Pudsey compete at Grade 7 in agility - championship level.

Looking at the photos of previous winners the 2004 winner looks like it might be Ashley with her dog Buffy.

>Looking at the photos of previous winners the 2004 winner looks like it might be Ashley with her dog Buffy.

Similar looking aren't they? But can't be the same one, surely.
Pleased to see subsequent winners have been more 'ordinary' for want of a better word. Milo reminds me of  a dog I saw at a fun dog show 2 years ago.. Bull terrier x Husky, very striking!