Would be interested to hear your thoughts on what age to use a dog at stud. I have always thought from 18 months, but recently got in a discussion with people, breeders themselves, who thought 15/16 months very acceptable so now I'm not sure. The dog in question is a small gundog breed. Thanks. :)

I think that this is probably different according to breed.  I wait until 18m to 24m depending how mature the dog is.  This with Chihuahua Long Coats.  I guess others will vary according to breed.

I'd want a dog to have proven himself competitively.  If you're talking a working gundog, then that wouldn't mean in the show ring... and it's very unlikely you'll find a 15mnth old FTCh...

Think that as long as the dog is old enough to have the required health tests done and is mature then the actual months are not important, some breeds are mature before the health tests will have been done where others are not mature until they are at least 24 months. You do need time to assess the temperament as well.

He'll be an agility dog and wont start competing until nearly 2.

Well, you've not really much of an idea of what he's going to turn out like, if he's not even competing yet....

A dog can sire litters at any age.  I see no reason for young, unproven dogs to be used...  unless you're talking a minority breed where gene pools are important.  Which is not the case with your breed.

A dog doesn't have to be competing to know if he a lot of potential, maybe in the show ring, but not in agility as you can see that early on. He's only 9.5 months and has a lot of interest in him already and a booking for next year, he also has someone coming to see him with a view to using him this summer, which is why I asked the question because I had originally said not till he was 18 months but he will only be 15/16 months old and I wasn't sure if that was acceptable. I know CD will only let you advertise them as stud dogs from 18 months, which I think he where I got that age from. He's got to have his eye test done yet.

Plenty dogs start out promising and then never reach their potential.  Many elements don't manifest themselves until maturity.  There is no true way to assess a dog except in competition against others.  There are already plenty of stud dogs which have proven themselves in competition, and no reason to use immature unproven studs.  These are all well known facts.  However, I doubt you're going to listen to any of this...

Why would I have asked if I wasn't going to listen? I asked a question to which I wanted an answer and other ppls opinions.

I just remembered why I don't post on this forum... >(

>A dog doesn't have to be competing to know if he a lot of potential

I quite agree; potential can be spotted very early, but whether or not a dog lives up to that potential involves waiting till maturity, and for a small breed like yours then 18 months is plenty old enough. I think you're quite right in your instincts to wait till then, when he's had all his genetic tests.

Why would I have asked if I wasn't going to listen?

Ignore Dark Storm - I am sure you are able to tell when your dog is old enough to assess his qualities - whether of not you do use him at stud in not the question here as I understand it you asked at what age the dog can be used and in most cases I would say as soon as possible but obviously not before you have had time to assess his health status and his suitability to be used at stud

When the dogs quality can be assessed and it is old enough to have gone through the health testing, so in practise assuming most breeds are hip scored that would be at least 14 months to allow for the results to be back.

My Inka's sire (who I bred), was 17 months when I used him.  I'd wanted to use his sire, and had used him on the previous season, but she missed as did several other bitches around that time.

>Had assumed that as he is a working cocker he may well not be that small

Working cockers tend to be smaller and lighter-built than show cockers; at least the ones I see around here are. 11kg or 12kg seems to be their average weight.

He does need to have his hips done, and good point Brainless about the time it takes for that to come back. He's hereditary clear for PRA and DNA clear for FN, so just hips, gonioscopy and BVA test to do.

Thank you for your thoughts.

He is quite small, 11.7kgs and 36/37cms tall.

Working cockers tend to be smaller and lighter-built than show cockers;

LOL JG I must be living in the past ours were enormous compared with todays show dogs but then our show dogs were a good bit larger than todays.

Nova, they range enormously, anything from 8 - 18kgs, so you were both right. 

In my breed the young males are allowed one mating at about 10 months to get the hang of things and be used to being handled etc. and then rested till 18 months old plus.

I have encountered males who are being used at 18 months old for the first time and are a nightmare and the mating has failed as he wouldn't let the stud owner assist at all with holding/reassuring the bitch etc., luckily there was an older stud there with an equally good pedigree and a Champ to boot who did the business.

In my breed the young males are allowed one mating at about 10 months

No good if you want or need to hip score.

That doesn't apply in dachsies.

I do think it is breed dependant but I wouldn't even think about using any dog until they are at least 18months old.  So many things can go wrong before then and manifest themselves.

I have seen so many males who I think are stunning as puppies, now at maturity I honestly can't see anything in them.. To think of all these people who have used such males at a young age too... Hmmm

> I do think it is breed dependant but I wouldn't even think about using any dog until they are at least 18months old.  So many things can go wrong before then and manifest themselves.

There are many breeds that don't mature mentally and/or temperament-wise before the two-year mark, sometimes longer. If I were choosing a stud dog I would want to know his full adult character and temperament, and possibly what kind of temperament his puppies have inherited.

Thank you to most for your thoughts, I'm going to wait till hes over 18 months, using him before doesn't sit right with me and I have to go with what I'm comfortable with. That doesn't mean I think anyone else is wrong for using them earlier, its just what feels right to me personally.

Pleased we have been of help :) As I said in my post above, over two years is better for a temperament point of view, which many disregard, when it should be at the front of breeders' criteria.

There are too many ill-educated people breeding dogs these days - as can be seen by the many adverts from people breeding casually - and none of them are conscious of the need to judge both the sire and dam's adult temperament... which can only lead to difficulties for the pups' owners; or worse, dogs that are handed on or PTS.

I would hope a dogs temperament was apparent long before two years of age, otherwise I have been wasting hundreds of pounds on health tests done before that age.

I certainly would not expect my good natured confident pups to turn into nasty tempered fiends by adulthood, I expect them to get better with maturity as they gain wisdom and self control.

I certainly would not expect my good natured confident pups to turn into nasty tempered fiends by adulthood, I expect them to get better with maturity as they gain wisdom and self control.

Breed specific again. I always say I wish Malinois were born already 2 years of age as before then, you have little idea of what they will turn out like. So many perfect pups have turned into nightmares, which has little to do with training and not always with the genetics of just the parents either. Hence I don't hip score or eye test much before the age of 2 as before then I don't really know if I will want to breed from the dog or not.

> I would hope a dogs temperament was apparent long before two years of age, otherwise I have been wasting hundreds of pounds on health tests done before that age.

That's because you know your breed, and you are an established breeder with miles of experience :)
There are so many people out there offering young dogs at stud, which in many cases aren't even KC reg... of various breeds, some which do mature later. There are also many of these dogs in rescue, bred by casual breeders. Some are wanting to breed a bitch at 12 months, before her adult temperament is through.

In which case, it's safe to advise to choose an older stud dog, as the casual breeders aren't aware of the need for mental maturity, hence a great many dogs with iffy temperaments are just waiting to be born and cause problems for the owners and ultimately the rescues they end up at. It won't be long before these casually bred BYB dogs outnumber the puppy farmed ones in rescue - in other breeds, not yours Brainless - and we are all about health, but with all the media hype and dogs attacks being reported, temperament has got to be as high on the list as health.

There was a case reported in the national press today, of a show breeder of Bullmastiffs, her dogs escaped from a garden and seriously injured some children - these dogs had been shown and one was top of his breed. The owner had both of them PTS.... but from what I gather about BMs they are normally a stable and reliable breed, and they must have been fairly well trained to have won to the top at shows. I will be asking the opinion of my agility trainer about this as she has been in BMs for 25+ years and is a breed club judge.

We really cannot afford to be complacent where temperament is concerned.... when the recent EFRA report is considering adding other so-called  'dangerous' breeds to their list. If that isn't a wake-up call for breeders to be extra careful about choosing good temperament in their breedings, then what is?

> It won't be long before these casually bred BYB dogs outnumber the puppy farmed ones in rescue

If American statistics are to be believed this has been the case for a long time, despite the huge puppy Mills whose stock is sold in mall pet shops.

Canine welfare charities and to a large extent ourselves decry puppy farmers, but the insidious harm caused unwittingly by the casual BYB, breeding one off litters causes more harm overall to breeds, it is harder for puppy buyers to be aware what is wrong with this kind of breeding as often the pups are lovingly reared in just the kind of homes they are destined for, so would seem ideal, rather than a breeder who shows/works their dogs.

This situation many good breeders feel was made far worse by the PDE film.  It's easy to see what's wrong with large scale commercial breeding or battery farmed pups.  As you say it is the lack of knowledge that is the worst thing about the BYB, and we see them come onto this forum all the time thinking there is nothing wrong with the way they wish to go about breeding, without any real purpose other than to sell puppies.

As you say Temperament IS PARAMOUNT, We can all easily live with an ugly dog of great temperament, but those of us who keep dogs in our homes as the vast majority of show breeders do these days, have to have dogs that are easy to live with, and can live in harmony with each other.

I have 6 bitches that have to get on, as I have no way of adequately separating them on a continuous basis.  The kennel I have is purely used as a bedroom, certainly not somewhere they live, and they are shut all together in the kitchen when I go out.  So good temperament is vital or I'd have dogs injured and continuously at the vets, and more importantly theri and my lives woudl be a misery.

I think few of us mention Temperament much is that it really is a pre-requisite before you even start.  Without it you have nothing at all to work with when considerign breeding.  Sadly there are so many badly bred dogs that many fo tehri woenrs think and iffy temperametn is the norm.  I ahve often spoken to people who wnat to mate theri nervous pet bitch as they are convinced it will impriove her temperament!!!

Temperament is important and if I arrived to use a stud that was in anyway not what I would expect I would walk away just as quickly as I would if his conformation was off.

I have a video of one stud playing up to me and the camera within minutes of meeting me, neither my bitch or his owner were in the room at the time, many dogs would have followed the owner rather than stay alone with a stranger, he went on to sire my first litter and all 3 pups now over 4yrs old have his attitude to life.

I wouldn't use a dog with an iffy temperament with one with a very good one in the hopes of getting the latter, too risky as most of my pups have gone to pet homes.

Re BYB causing more issues than even Puppy farmers.
http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm

The back yard breeder is the single greatest cause of pet overpopulation. Back yard breeders usually do not have bad intentions, but the results of back yard breeding are devastating.

The majority of homeless or abandoned dogs come from this category in many popular breeds and mixes, they are often destroyed in pounds. Most are sold locally through newspaper ads - the responsibility ends when the purchaser's taillights disappear from sight.

I would have taken the trouble to get to know any intended stud dog quite well if using a UK based dog.

When I have used dogs abroad I have had to take things more on trust, but as in both cases I have stayed with the stud dog owner, then it would be hard to hide anything, but then of course they woudl also not risk their reputatiosn.

Interestingly in both cases the males were far more interested in making friends with me than meeting the bitch.  Of course in a few days they were more than happy to do their duty.

Both were kennel dogs but very sociable, the latter even with all his male comrades ( the breeder kept her bitches and dogs kennels and runs and paddocks seperated).

Both of my workers have a typical spaniel temperament and don't have a nasty bone in them. The dog in question came to work with me this morning (I'm a carer for the elderly) and despite the fact that hes never been in her house before, met her, seen a wheelchair let alone a moving one, his tail never stopped. I wouldn't breed from any dog with an iffy temperament, as I own one who is now nearly 11, and wouldn't wish that on anybody! The ppl interested in using my dogs are agility, flyball and gundog ppl, so working homes for the pups. I often get asked about litters from ppl who are looking for pups and like what they see, so put them in touch with the breeders. My other spaniel was 2 before he was used but that was just the way it worked out. He was available from 18 months on. He is fully health tested, proven in his field, and a stunning example of the breed, and available only to health tested bitches so I certainly am not a BYB.

Exactly.

When discussing stud dog age we are presuming we are talking about breeders who are ethical, knowledgeable and responsible.

BYB's and Puppy Farmers will always so what suits them, often allowing dogs and bitches to breed as soon as physically capable.

Each outside stud I have used has lived 200+miles away, they had been pointed out to me at shows by my mentors but not the ideal situation for anything other than meet and greet and see the dog doesn't cower away or show aggression when approached, then communication goes on via phone and email, pedigrees exchanged and discussed with mentors before any final decision is made, none of this " she is due in season next week I need to know now" business.

And still prepared to back out if not happy despite long journey with 3 dogs and staying in B&B locally.

The ppl wanting to use my boys arrange to meet up at shows and we go for a walk with the dogs, let them run about together and we have a chat. They watch them work, see videos of them in the ring, or in my pups case, training videos. My youngest is wired to the moon as far as energy and work drive goes, so hes a working homes only stud dog. My oldest can be used for pet pups as hes more laid back and again thats something I forewarn potential breeders about. Funnily enough, the hype of my pup is whats attracting ppl to him lol