If the pup can legally have it's rabies jab at 9 weeks old in it's home country and wait the 21 days after, can it enter the UK at 12 weeks old? Just needing to confirm this really as i might be in a position to have another puppy from another breeder in Poland.

Up to now i've understood it to be 15 weeks the earliest they can enter, but some rabies vacs companies can ( and do ) vaccinate earlier so as long as the 21 day wait still applies is it all above board?

Thanks

DEFRA state that no dog can legally enter the UK before 16 weeks.

Rabies vaccinations can be given before 3 months, but a second will usually be needed at that date and the 21 days waiting starts then. You will need evidence of the manufacturer's data sheet (in English!) stating that only one vaccination is needed if the pup isn't to be taken into quarantine.

For example, the datasheet for the Canigen rabies vaccine states "* Primary vaccination may be administered at an earlier age (minimum in dogs and cats of 4 weeks of age), but then a repeat vaccination must be given at the age of 3 months." The 21-day wait starts from the date of the second vaccination.

Ah ok, that's a shame. So a puppy can't enter at 15 weeks either?

It's 21 days (3 weeks) from 3 calendar months, not 12 weeks.

Sorry i don't know how to quote.

But the breeder said they've never had to give a second vaccination after their initial one and they use rabisin or virbac?

Virbac is the manufacturer of the Canigen vaccines whose datasheet I quoted.

The Rabisin datasheet says "Dogs and cats
Minimum age at vaccination: 3 months."

The breeder is lying to you.

Oh, ok thanks very much. I'm learning all the time about the importation process and it's quite confusing at times.

It is. :-( But get it wrong and the puppy you've paid for will be seized and either quarantined or returned to the country of origin, or worst case scenario, put to sleep. Far better to go by the book 100%.

Oh yes absolutely! I'm just not sure the breeder is willing to hold on to the puppy that long :( But she asked me to check whether it was legal or not so she is obviously learning herself. She has never imported to the UK before and has said how difficult it is so far!

Do you know this breeder personally or had them recommended to you by a bona fide source like the breed club? 

There is a lot of trafficking of puppies from the former Eastern block countries where puppies are being bred purely for commercial purposes as they are relatively cheaper there.

Many will have falsified or inaccurate documentation signed by vets willing to sign anything for a backhander.  After all how many border officials could tell the age of a young puppy just by looking, where we could tell the difference between a very young pup of 8 weeks compared to a three or four month old.

I am of Polish descent (bilingual) and have family and friends from there and know that the economic situation means that people will turn to anything that will make a bit of money, jobs are scarce, social provision non existent or inadequate, hence the huge exodus of working age people (economic migration) out of the country since they were admitted to the EU.  There has also traditionally been an acceptance of petty corruption, rule bending, bribery, greasing the wheels etc.

> It is. :-( But get it wrong and the puppy you've paid for will be seized and either quarantined or returned to the country of origin, or worst case scenario, put to sleep. Far better to go by the book 100%.

Totally agree with this.
When the Balai Directive came in (precursor to pet passports) I imported some small animals from Belgium, but it was hell itself to get it in writing from DEFRA (it was MAFF then) what I was meant to do. Finally got the right details, no problems, and imported a second time a few months later. Spoke to MAFF beforehand to ask if it would be the same as the first import and got a verbal agreement, so it was all done to the letter of the first. Then afew days later I had a a phone call from the head of MAFF to say it wasn't done right and all my animals (not just the imports) could be impounded (as they had been on the same premises) including my pet cats! Probably the worst day of my life, I can't tell you how it felt, especially as the animals I imported can't carry rabies.

Don't take any chances.... please!

http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/travel/pets/pet-owners/#a
Our pup is still in Sweden.He will be vaccinated at 13weeks and travel at 16weeks,to Italy.
At first we also thought the rabies vacc could be given at 12weeks, but the vet preferred to give the vacc at 13weeks so he is legal .The pup has to be 3months and 21 days to travel.

>There is a lot of trafficking of puppies from the former Eastern block countries where puppies are being bred purely for commercial purposes as they are relatively cheaper there.
>Many will have falsified or inaccurate documentation signed by vets willing to sign anything for a backhander.  After all how many border officials could tell the age of a young puppy just by looking, where we could tell the difference between a very young pup of 8 weeks compared to a three or four month old.

Pugs and French Bulldogs are very common victims of this horrible illegal trade.

There are like here some passionate dog people in Poland, some have very little means and go without for their dogs, and others can afford to indulge.

What we have to remember that in Poland the housing situation is quite dire, you have huge overcrowding with multi-rgenerational families having to make do. 

My ex sister in law before coming to the UK slept in one room with husband and two grown up daughters.  The other room in the two room flat was used by her father and before her death shared with her mother.  This is quite normal.

You have an economy her earnings are around 20% of ours, yet consumer goods and much food etc is equivalent to our prices.  It's a bit like our North East, all the old industries have closed down, been streamlined.  There is some foreign investment and jobs, but on the whole foreign companies were more interested in buying up and getting the market.

So there is a great deal of entrepreneurial/black market etc dealing, anything to earn some money as the jobs are far and few between, you need to make your won living, or supplement your earnings.

Traditionally dogs and cats have much lower status, most people my age and above would think nothing of drowning puppies and kittens, in fact cats are still largely semi feral, tolerated on allotments and in the communal cellars of apartment buildings for their rodent killing.

The majority of pet dogs are mongrels easily sourced and discarded, and there is a huge rescue/welfare problem, though largely no packs of free ranging dogs are allowed, but most people thing dogs should be free to wander the way most cats do here.

So this is a situation ripe for Back Yard breeding, Puppy Farming and trafficking.

actually they may be able to, it depends on the manufacturer's instructions as DEFRA now rely totally on this and do not stipulate anything....this is what they say, there is no mention of any timescale unlike when I brought Merc in when they stated 3months was a minimum age for rabies injections... not so now apparently....

Step 2 - Have your pet vaccinated - After the microchip has been fitted your pet must be vaccinated against rabies. There is no exemption to this requirement, even if your pet has a current rabies vaccination. Rabies boosters must be kept up to date. The length of the waiting period before entry to the UK is 21 days after the first vaccination date. A waiting period is not required for subsequent entries into the UK, provided rabies boosters are kept up to date. If the vaccination is in two parts the 21 day wait will be from the date of the second vaccination. For the purposes of calculating the waiting period, the date that the vaccination was carried out is counted as day 0.

> If the vaccination is in two parts the 21 day wait will be from the date of the second vaccination.

The data sheets (JG put them up) of the vaccines most commonly used say there must be a second vaccination at 3 months.

From reading the new rules a dog can enter the UK after 21 days of the Rabies vaccination. Some Vaccinations can be given at 4 weeks (so long as a booster is given at 3 months).

My reading of this is it is then possible to import a pup at 7 weeks. Im not suggest this is good for the pup but this appears to be possible under the PETS scheme from an EU country.

I dont see any minimum age written in the new rules.

Have I interpreted the rules correctly ?

No if itis a two part Rabies vaccine the 21 day wait is from the second vaccianation give at over 3 months of age.

So it is still 3 months + 21 days.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/travel/pets/pet-owners/#a

Quote:
(my bold)
*Step 2 - Have your pet vaccinated - After the microchip has been fitted your pet must be vaccinated against rabies. There is no exemption to this requirement, even if your pet has a current rabies vaccination. Rabies boosters must be kept up to date. The length of the waiting period before entry to the UK is 21 days after the first vaccination date. A waiting period is not required for subsequent entries into the UK, provided rabies boosters are kept up to date. If the vaccination is in two parts the 21 day wait will be from the date of the second vaccination. For the purposes of calculating the waiting period, the date that the vaccination was carried out is counted as day 0.

Brainless. Is correct...3m and 21 days. We are at 3 m and two weeks right now and our pup can be collected from Sweden next Monday. Not a day before. It has  been a really long wait,but my breeder has been wonderful.Weekly pictures,regular updates  etc...I cannot say enough good things about her.However it has been a really long wait.
  THe rules are clear,the problems complicate when the country is non eu . 
The only pups that can be imported before this age are when accompanied by the nursing mother.
THe fact that the pup is in Poland would mean the 3m 21 day rule most definitely apply.This is one of the red zone countries for puppy milling.....My bet is that the documentation would be super checked when the pup enters uk,based on this fact alone. I would not risk bending rules as the pup could be quarantined at your expense,or even returned to the breeder,also at your expense.
Re the rabies vacc....the Swedish vet wanted to wait until the pup was 13weeks as any earlier it would have been compromised by the mothers antibodies. so our pup will be almost 16 weeks when he flies to us.

Years ago (1997) I sent a puppy to Poland and she was able to be vaccinated earlier than 3 months only because this was before pet Passports.

There was no chance her mothers antibodies could interfere, as we did not at that time vaccinate in the UK for Rabies.

Since then the Licensing for the vaccine is for it to be finalised at 3 months when mothers antibodies should have waned enough for a vaccine to take.

This is especially vital now with no blood titre test (for EU and listed countries) being done to confirm the vaccine has been effective.

The only one of mine to fail her Rabies titre test was conceived abroad and her mother had been vaccinated for Rabies in order to travel.

I feel the removal of the requirement for a titre test was a very bad move, the waiting period being removed fine, but the requirement for a suitable result of a titre should have stayed.

>I feel the removal of the requirement for a titre test was a very bad move, the waiting period being removed fine, but the requirement for a suitable result of a titre should have stayed.

I couldn't agree more. As it was, there was a significant number who failed their titre test (when it was a requirement); now who can tell which dogs have immunity? Nobody.

But the dog can also pass the titre done after the vaccination and then later (with in the 6 month waiting period before being allowed to UK) fail it as not having the required levels of antibodies!
In theory the dog is still allowed to enter UK as the passport still stands as has the passed test result signed as a pass by the vet when the 6 month wait started...

I know even after failing the later titre, the dog is more than likely still covered if being in contact with the virus, but it still does kind of make the titre testing as it was a bit pointless as the levels required are not there even before the dog is allowed to enter UK, never mind 2.5 years later when the next jab is due?

The dog has not been re-titered since failing the second titre so I do not know if any later vaccinations have stimulated the levels so he would pass the titre or if the levels have remained under the required level.

With the current system, allowing false paperwork, we have no proof that a dog has ever been vaccinated against rabies at all. Combine this with the fact that many East European countries are high rabies risk areas, you'll appreciate the very real danger.

I sincerely hope this programe tonight highlights the loopholes and failings of the present system that is allowing puppy trafficking from Eastern Europe.  Not comfortable with at least two london pet shops selling puppies from Eastern Europe either.

I was a bit cross with them constantly (including officials) stating 12 weeks for vaccination, and 15 weeks for entry.

Even with February in the equation any pup will be a minimum of 89 days (12 weeks 5 days) when it's 3 months, most usually it will be 90-91 days.

I am always amazed at the way so many people think a month is 4 weeks, when working out weekly pay or bills etc.

You want to work out a weekly amount from a monthly amount you have to multiply by 12 and divide by 52, not simply divide by 4, can make a huge difference.

I do think the current system has opened up an issue but I was just pointing out the old system was not fool proof either.
Paper work could be falsified with the old system too and in some eastern european countries just few quid to a right person and you can have the paperwork for rabies, hip results you wish for etc...

Selling of puppies in pet shops needs to be stopped and public educated on where to get their puppy from so there is no market or place to easily sell these pups and puppy farmed puppies.

DEFRA could also easily limit the number of animals allowed to be brought in at once, which would cut down the import of 40-50 pups in one car load.

Other countries in europe that have more relaxed entry rules have been getting these puppies in for a while now but the numbers are lot less due to pet shops not allowed to sell the puppies so only way to sell them is from private property so slightly more effort involved than sticking the pups on the window of the shop. Public is also more educated meaning it is not quite so easy to sell the pups via free ads.

Thanks for all the replies and interesting and important conversation that followed. Thought i'd just update on my situation. I decided to not go with this breeder as they insisted on bringing the puppy across at 12 weeks old. Passport was going to be tampered with to make out puppy was older and i just felt uncomfortable about the whole process.

I'm sitting tight and now plan to stick to the breeder i was originally interested in who IS willing to wait to the required time and even though it will cost nearly double what i would been paying, i will probably use Scandipets to help import the puppy just so i know everything will go smoothly.

>Passport was going to be tampered with to make out puppy was older and i just felt uncomfortable about the whole process.

Thank goodness you found out. Please, please report them to DEFRA (you can do this anonymously if you like) because this illegal smuggling is becoming very common and will eventually lead to an outbreak of rabies in this country, which will totally devastate our whole way of life. I can't stress enough what a serious crime these people were suggesting you should commit.

All over the Internet, in case you have not noticed ads are appearing offering puppies for sale with a passport often the puppies are 8 weeks of age. They have received their rabies vaccination too early and arrived in the UK when still too young, these puppies have false passports but are getting through to the UK in the backs of vans and in cars. Goodness knows what border control are thinking in allowing these transports to enter the UK and placing all our dogs at risk. Bulldogs including French Bulldogs and pugs seem to be the most popular due to the high asking price.

If you know of anyone selling puppies from Eastern Europe in the UK or notice and Advert that you feel is suspect then please contact Trading Standards but take a screen shot first or make note of all details.  We must stop these scumbags who are ripping people off and placing the UK at risk of rabies. Ask the advertiser to remove the ad, they often will co-operate but the sellers are getting more crafty and are now registering the puppies with Kennel Registration to make them appear as though they were bred here but sold with a passport.

Everyones help is needed this is really serious, it cannot be ignored.  Please also write to Defra and your MP asking them to discuss this issue urgently before we lose our rabies free status.  I remember foot and mouth and the serious loss of livestock, the Government failed badly then do not let them do the same on this issue please act before it is too late.