We have 2 males, one 6 years old and the other 9 months. Both are extremely food-orientated and the older one is prone to resource-guarding. What we want to achieve is to have them both sitting or lying quietly on their beds at either side of the room while we're eating. They start off OK, with a titbit as a reward, but it's not long before the younger one gets up and comes over to the table. One of us coaxes him back to his bed and gives the 'settle' command. This might work for a while but then he's back at the table again. And so on, and so on. So we're up and down like yo-yo's - not good for the digestion!

Meanwhile the older one is getting increasingly twitchy at what (I imagine) he sees as the younger one's provocative behaviour. Then there comes a time when the younger one just won't go back to his bed, so one of us puts a slip-lead on him and (gently) guides him either into his crate or into the utility room which has stable doors so we just close the bottom half. (I should say that he doesn't really go in his crate at other times any more and we're quite keen to do away with it.) All is now well for a few minutes, but then littl'un starts barking. And barking. And won't stop. And the older one joins in. And it's deafening . . .

Seems to me that they've got us over a barrel, but I'm sure there must be something! Where are we going wrong?!

Eek! Mealtimes sound stressful!  My dogs all stay together behind the babygate so they can't get to the kitchen table at all so although they start, they can't do much about it.  Yours have probably learned that barking gets attention, good or bad, it's still attention.  But I don't blame you, I couldn't stand constant barking!
We have a film night at the weekend in our house which consists of us all eating in the lounge.  I have taught the dogs that when we are eating, they are not allowed across the threshold of the lounge(there's no door).  I just use the command 'out' and they all lie together in the hall till they are allowed in.  Sometimes the little un will try and come in, but I just say 'out' and she goes.  I don't mind where she lies or how so long as she's out.
Can you not lock them both together behind the door?  That way, they will know the other is not getting something they are not.  And try and ignore the barking?
Or maybe feed them at the same time?
What about a bone at this time to keep them quiet and settled?

Just suggestions.  I'm sure someone more knowledgable will be along soon.  Best of luck.

Why are you giving them titbits whilst you're eating?  I'd say you've been inadvertently rewarding the very behaviour you don't want:  They come and pester you, you get a titbit out and take them away somewhere with it.  Obviously they have learnt that if they pester you, they get your attention and titbits.

The best and only way is to completely and absolutely ignore them if they pester you whilst eating.  Sit close to the table, and ignore any noses or snuffling or whatever.  Eventually they will get bored and go and lie down.

That reminds me of then my first two were alive.  they stayed with my Dad and his wife and kids.

Now Dad would forever feed them whatever eh didn't like on his plate, crusts, bits of gristle etc, and they would sit under the table giving him a nudge from time to time.

Now his wife and children never ever gave them anything and ignored them completely, and the dogs would go into the other room and lie down.

Dogs will do what works, and eventually when something doesn't then stop.

I agree with Rabid, you have inadvertently rewarded a behaviour you don't want, while creating a a strong association between your mealtimes, tidbits and keeping you on the hop.

The only way out of this is to religiously ignore any pestering and they must not be rewarded by tidbits, attention, you getting up or pushing them away etc..

I think you need to make a choice now, either they got out of the room at mealtimes and you ignore all protestations (let the neighbours know). If they are each crated for this period I see no reason they cannot each have a chew, but that is all, and you do not go in to them until your meal is over and they have quietened down. You can expect the level of barking and protest to get worse before it gets better, because having learned this has worked in the past, they'll try harder to get your attention, before they give up. It requires nerves of steel.

The other option is to tether each in their bed (but you need to make sure they cannot snap or chew the lead, or hurt themselves), with a chew before your meal begins, or bring their crates into the kitchen. Whichever is most practical. Again, all protests, whingeing, whining, barking, must be ignored...don't even look at them.

Once you have started this, if you at any point give in or dither even slightly, the unwanted behaviour will return but very much worse.

You are reconditioning your dogs to make a clear and unequivocal association that at mealtimes they do not go near you and they each stay in their own space.

As you say, your dogs are very food orientated and they will covet your food above anything, so expect them to try every trick in the book to be able to do what they want to do, before they eventually give up.

This type of training has a name it's called extinction- you can google it and look it up. Also read up about extinction bursts. I'd advise you understand it before you try it, so you know what to expect.

It might even be best to have a behaviourist in for one session to advise in situ, to ensure this is the best technique for you and to guide you through. It'd be worth it to get peace at mealtimes.

Thanks very much for the replies so far - helpful indeed.

My partner and I need to go over this and decide the practicalities of the different options.

Meanwhile, we started straight away at breakfast by ignoring the younger one whenever he came up to the table or made a noise, and that worked very well. In fact the whole meal passed in total silence as we humans didn't dare utter a squeak either!

I think if you tether them or crate them, they're likely to kick up a huge noise.  If you just ignore them whenever they approach the table, and body block them with your arms or legs if they try to snuffle anything, you will achieve the same results without the noise.

Except the dogs are showing some indications that they might squabble and might therefore have to be separated. Additionally, they might start barking whatever is done as a means to get the attention they are used to and that is suddenly being denied them.

Ah, I replied to Rabid before I read your last post. That augurs well, continue ignoring and let's hope they don't ratchet things up. My concern was that the younger one starts trying harder to get your attention and the older one steps in. Still, the path of least resistance is definitely worth a go first. 

A simple 'away' or 'on or bed' and they turn straight round and go off and settle down.

We don't also give scraps until a lot later on to stop the anticipation straight after we have eaten that they are going to get anything.

Our two are very food orientated and we certainly found that ignoring them was the only way to get them to stay away from the table. BUT they know a weak spot when they see one and if we ever have children over to dinner then they immediately become difficult because they want to be under the table in case anything gets dropped!

The problem is that if we don't spot them (not often as they're a large breed), they self-reward with stuff off the floor and then its back to square one, like we had never trained them to stay away.

I don't know how stubborn your dogs are but I'd try to ensure that nobody relents and treats them from the table...even one occasion can end you up back where you started...

If we're not actually at the table eating, my bitch will still get ON the table looking for crumbs...I've not managed to control this one yet...she's too sneaky (and stubborn).

All mine are food hogs especially Moose since she is the youngest & the other 2 old.
All mine sit in the living room while we eat- the Bostons no better so they just go lay down some place.
Moose on the other hand tries to sneak in- I can't stand a dog bagging. I tell her place and keep putting her there.
You can literally walk a circle from living room to kitchen-dining room & back again. She is learning when we sit down to eat she is not allowed
there at all- one part of the kitchen she is not allowed in and that is where we prepare the food. The problem is getting the hubby & son to keep
enforcing this so I have been right on it every time- so far so good.

I just send my 5 'out'.  They all sit at the doorway which provides them with a clear line that they are not to cross.  Occasionally a paw will just be placed over the line and I just say 'ah ah' and the paw is withdrawn. It's much easier to control a doorway than having dogs on opposite sides of the room. 

I have to be strict as I have a very messy toddler who splatters food everywhere.  When we have finished I let them in for clean up duties which is quite helpful :)

Well I envy all of you who have such obedient dogs, but I'm still a long way off!

I think it will be easier to let our two stay in the room while we're eating. It's actually a large open plan space so they can be doing things away from the table if they want to. Freelancerukuk, you're right that I was worried about the older one possibly objecting to the younger one being allowed to come close to the table - and thus to him - but so far we've had 4 meals without incident. In fact after coming up and pestering us a few times, and being ignored, the younger one has been quite happy to wander around and amuse himself.

Oh, and they've both been quiet!

Not suggesting it'll be all plain-sailing from now on, but I'm really pleased how it's gone so far.

Val

V,
Glad it seems to be working so far- just keep at it and never, never become complacent and let things slide, even in the slightest way because everything will revert but be much worse.

Your weak link is probably your kids who may absentmindedly stroke either dog as they sidle up, it's amazing how after weeks of everything going well the dog/s will decide to have a little try again and because your eye is not on the ball you slip a little.

Let us hope that the older one will view your studious ignoring of the younger one and feel honour is satisfied. They are both young so if you keep this up they will learn.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

I have to be strict as I have a very messy toddler who splatters food everywhere.  When we have finished I let them in for clean up duties which is quite helpful :-)

lol I did the same with mine- except when she was in the highchair they would come lick her when she was finished- my daughter was huge on making a mess just
for this lol and the giggles ooh my- she would even save food clumped in each lil fist and hand it to them- that was her treat to them.
Then off to the tub I would take her and the 2 would finish cleaning up- oooh my that was like 20 yrs ago- sure miss them big dogs
huge part of us :-( But great memories :-)

Just wanted to say thanks again for your help with this. We still have (relative) peace! The older dog lies near the table, while the younger one is all over the place, mainly chewing bamboo (don't ask!) and fighting his bed, but neither one is pestering us or the other dog, so that's fine. They still bark like mad towards the end of our meal as they know theirs will be coming soon, and us ignoring it makes no difference. But overall a great improvement!

There's something else I want to ask about now, but I'll start a new thread.

Glad ignoring has helped.

Now about the barking towards end of meal..very irritating. Dogs tend to learn by cause and effect, so you ignoring their barking at end of meal will not help because the desired result- their food- always arrives. To the dog the barking works because the food always arrives. Quite simply human food, followed by barking at a certain time of the day signals arrival of dog food- that is why they keep barking.

To stop them barking you could try feeding them an hour before your evening meal and then placing their empty food bowls upside down on the floor. Any barking as you near the end of year meal must be studiously ignored and they MUST NOT even be given so much as a food treat for a good hour after your meal has ended.

It will take time -perhaps a few months- for the barking to stop but if you stick at it there is a chance it will disappear/reduce. What you are doing is breaking the association of the end of your meal signalling the beginning of theirs. By turning their food bowls upside down after their meal you are also giving another new cue- no more food to come. Expect their barking to become a lot worse while you are training this new regime. For a while the dogs will be thinking, hang on barking always worked before, we'd better bark even harder. 

Thanks for this - an excellent explanation of what's going on! Sounds like we (I mean me and my partner) need to change our routine in a big way - never easy, but no doubt worth it in the long run.